Ryders crash -motor?

[sniper]

...snipped for brevity...

thanks for clafifying, GT.
i agree with Granville.

 

[Granville57]

It's wildly addictive. I'll probably have to quit cold turkey soon, less I go clinically insane.

JV tried that. More than once.

He has failed every time.

 

[Granville57]

As long as we all admit that assumptions are just that - creations by us - and not exactly what happened to Ryder's bike, we're OK. But when it cross over and assumptions are represented as fact (the wheel lost its movement, the road was incredibly slick, etc...), then we're not so OK.

You've been making some very good points along these lines throughout this thread. I would take that one step further and add:

What really sends things off the rails is when some folks jump in to defend the honor of whatever it is they seem to feel has been violated, and do so with blatantly wrong assertions, uninformed analysis, and the misguided assumption that reasonable debate won't be accepted.

A calm exchange of ideas would do just fine on its own. Maintaining a healthy sense of humor alongside reasoned scientific inquiry would only add to this. But the screeching of outrage at the mere suggestion that there may be more to this than initially meets the eye, is what tends to turn things toxic.

It was a weird occurrence.
It sparked some curiosity and, of course, some humor.
But then "the other side" became deeply serious...and darkness fell upon the land.
And then the blame shifts to those who had the audacity to even think about discussing such things in the first place.

It's a funny cycle that these things tend to go through.
(Not sure if pun was intended or not.)

 

[kielbasa]

I'm getting really suspicious of those Canadians. Check out the motor on that hoop @35 sec:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7MeOToN2nw&t=0m30s

 

[the delgados]

I'm getting really suspicious of those Canadians. Check out the motor on that hoop @35 sec:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7MeOToN2nw&t=0m30s

We Canadians tend to be a passive aggressive lot. Hence, motorized
cycling and gymnastics are our big eff you to American influence.

 

[D-Queued]

Finally, something real to discuss on this thread

...

You know that old saying: If you want to catch a Canadian, you need to think like a Canadian.

...

I'm getting really suspicious of those Canadians. Check out the motor on that hoop @35 sec:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7MeOToN2nw&t=0m30s

We Canadians tend to be a passive aggressive lot. Hence, motorized
cycling and gymnastics are our big eff you to American influence.

Think like a Canadian!!!

Canadian input and influence (think 'Canadarm') means that any such technology would only be suited to weightlessness and the vacuum of space. It would be covered with red maple leafs that only Canadians would notice.

This is directly related to the rather vacuous nature of the Canadian Way.

As the delgados notes, Canadians are forever embarrassed by how they compare to their industrious neighbor to the south with their good ol' know-how.

Canada lives in a free-market vacuum created by socialized everything. Hence Canadian technology is logically designed for a vacuum.

If Ryder, as a Canadian riding a Canadian steed, had such a motor we would be able to observe:
- Red maple leafs all over the thing, in this case to mask its appearance and existence like Adam and Eve's grape leaves
- Instructions and contents provided in French (English optional) affixed to a highly viewable location on the bicycle
- Extraordinarily high customs duties of at least 100% on the tariff item 'motors for bicycles'. Said duties allegedly required to protect some kind of bicycle manufacturing jobs that once may have existed in the Province of Quebec (No, this is not a political comment. Nor is this an exaggeration. This is factually based.)
- The motor would have to be powered by a fuel cell, and not a battery. Non commercial technology, of course. Otherwise, the requisite development funding from Industry Canada would never have been provided.
- It would, as noted, only work in a weightless environment in a vaccum.

As none of these are present, thankfully of course, we can conclude that there is no motor in or on Ryder's bicycle.

Dave.

 

[Bluenote]

You've been making some very good points along these lines throughout this thread. I would take that one step further and add:

What really sends things off the rails is when some folks jump in to defend the honor of whatever it is they seem to feel has been violated, and do so with blatantly wrong assertions, uninformed analysis, and the misguided assumption that reasonable debate won't be accepted.

A calm exchange of ideas would do just fine on its own. Maintaining a healthy sense of humor alongside reasoned scientific inquiry would only add to this. But the screeching of outrage at the mere suggestion that there may be more to this than initially meets the eye, is what tends to turn things toxic.

It was a weird occurrence.
It sparked some curiosity and, of course, some humor.
But then "the other side" became deeply serious...and darkness fell upon the land.
And then the blame shifts to those who had the audacity to even think about discussing such things in the first place.

It's a funny cycle that these things tend to go through.
(Not sure if pun was intended or not.)

Well, to be fair, you are assuming motives for other people.

You interpret certain posts as 'people wanting to suppress any talk of motors.'
I interpreted many of them as 'oh Lord, this is as ridiculous as that thread of looking at pictures of people's faces and deciding they're on HGH.'

What was ridiculous about the face - HGH thread was the accusations without anything close to data. But, some of the accusers actually took it very seriously.
What is hard about this thread is the accusation, with lots of missing data.

It's not surprising that people have varying attitudes about how much data is needed to make an accusation. One persons 'worthy of discussion,' would be another person's 'tacky smear campaign,' or another persons 'tinfoil hat conspiracy theory.'

And yes, I think it's ridiculous to have this discussion with so little data. And so little aknowledgement of how little data there is. But I would never try to shut this thread down - ridiculous can be very entertaining.

 

[claytoncoffelt]

Wheels from neutral cars are only required in breaks where team cars are stuck behind pelotons.

If someone was using a hub motor, they do have to consider the wheel change might be from a neutral car, but as soon as the opportunity arises getting a rear wheel from team car is also an option.

How many times would a rider puncture during a 3 week GT? I remember Armstrong didn't puncture once in 7 TdFs

You can put a lot of Stan's in the tires if you have an extra few hundred watts. Or just change bikes in a perfectly orchestrated bike change like Cancellara(who had no mechanical problem).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al22Nn-6yPs

 

[MarkvW]

I'm thinking alien battery technology, or perhaps a sub-miniaturized hydrogen on demand engine system.

 

[the delgados]

@D-ueued and Bluenote:
Speaking of ridiculous, today QMI, a Canadian news agency, ran with the story and the reporters clearly suggested the bike had a motor. I'm too lazy to provide a link, but go to Toronto Sun and enter bike doping in the search option if you're interested.
P.S. Go to the Toronto Sun at your own risk. The Sun may blind you.

 

[the delgados]

Er, "D-Queued." Only Canadians would apologize for misspelling user names. We're polite that way. But then we go behind everyone's backs and install motors in our bikes.
Sorry, carry on.

 

[D-Queued]

Er, "D-Queued." Only Canadians would apologize for misspelling user names. We're polite that way. But then we go behind everyone's backs and install motors in our bikes.
Sorry, carry on.

Either that, or elect Mr. 'cyclists are a-***s' Rob Ford.

Speaking of which, I generally avoid the (Toronto) Sun. Heard it's bad for your health.

Dave.

 

[sniper]

Because only losers who have never ridden a bike and have no experience in professional sports would ever raise the issue.

Ya' know, guys like this:
Chris Boardman warned the UCI of risks of bike doping

interesting, thanks. we can add that to cassani's whistleblowing remark.
And still it seems neither UCI nor Garmin are taking it seriously.

“Apparently they got a lot of messages from the public, so they had to come and investigate,” Fernandez said.

“They came this morning and said that they had to look at the bikes. I think they were almost embarrassed, but they came along and had a look anyway.”http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/sep/04/ryder-hesjedal-motorised-bike-vuelta-espana [/B]

makes one wonder. motorization omerta?

A rear motor wheel could easily have been developed and would be a great solution to the UCI looking at the BB area. Making the movement of the cranks irrelevant. The wheel does appear to come to a complete stop making any momentum of the wheel argument invalid. A very light weight carbon wheel does not carry enough kinetic energy to make the bike peel out either. The rim and tire on Ryder's bike have almost no mass and almost no kinetic energy after the sidewall of the tire hits the ground and most of the energy is dissipated.The rear wheel in this case including the tire is only around 1000 grams most of which is the hub and cassette. I have worked in a bicycle store for most of 30 years and have never witnessed anything like what is pictured unless the wheel is powered.
It is not easy to come to the conclusion your favorite sport is about as real as the WWE.

interesting post, and good point (boldfaced).

Wheels from neutral cars are only required in breaks where team cars are stuck behind pelotons.

If someone was using a hub motor, they do have to consider the wheel change might be from a neutral car, but as soon as the opportunity arises getting a rear wheel from team car is also an option.

How many times would a rider puncture during a 3 week GT? I remember Armstrong didn't puncture once in 7 TdFs

good points. And even if your motorized wheel would get swapped for a normal one mid-stage, you've still had a considerable advantage from the motor. Anyway, this is procycling, if they want to cheat they'll find a way. Having to change bikes/wheels would be among the smallest of hurdles to overcome.

You can put a lot of Stan's in the tires if you have an extra few hundred watts. Or just change bikes in a perfectly orchestrated bike change like Cancellara(who had no mechanical problem).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al22Nn-6yPs

most interesting! hadn't seen it before.

And so little aknowledgement of how little data there is.

to be sure, i and others have acknowledged that several times in the past coupla pages. e.g. here

I don't think the force can be assumed with reasonable accuracy from the footage we have.

And yes, I think it's ridiculous to have this discussion with so little data.

we started with little data, but then the thread has ended up generating plenty of interesting data and discussion points. i think "rewarding" is the word you're looking for.

 

[sniper]

UCI taking the issue most seriously indeed

Fernandez provided something of an explanation, saying the slippery tarmac could have been to blame.

With the UCI taking a closer look, and a possible explanation provided, it appears the case of Hesjedal's magic bike has been settled.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/ryder-hesjedal-criticized-for-motorized-bike-at-vuelta-1.2756005

 

[Bluenote]

to be sure, i and others have acknowledged that several times in the past coupla pages. e.g. here
we started with little data, but then the thread has ended up generating plenty of interesting data and discussion points. i think "rewarding" is the word you're looking for.

Yeah, 50 pages in and after GT's excellent analysis - acknowledgment that there is little data.
No, ridiculous is the word I'm looking for.

 

[Brooks Fahey Baldwin]

Sorry if I am making a point twice, as there are 20 odd pages of this thread I haven't read yet.

However, what I have to add is:

1) Just over a decade ago I made a small pancake motor for a model car. It was about the size of a stroopwafel. Importantly such a motor has a huge amount of torque. 32 times the torque of a standard faulharber motor if i remember correctly. Perfect for a bike really.
With a bit of mucking around I reckon I could put one of these between the hub flange and the freehub body on a cosmic carbone ultimate. A battery to work with such a motor would be more of a challenge.

2) From watching the video it doesnt look like the wheel completely stops still. Ryder's body gets in the way during the second that the wheel appears to "stop". But it could be that the wheel skids on the ground for a second then takes off as soon as he unclips.

3) The problem with point no.2 is that the bike seems to accelerate until Ryder stops it after he unclips. This could be explained by slow motion video being sped up (even just a little). But that remains ambiguous to me.

 

[Cycle Chic]

and what on earth were the UCI hoping to find ?? 5 days later...

 

[Granville57]

Well, to be fair, you are assuming motives for other people.

You interpret certain posts as 'people wanting to suppress any talk of motors.'

Actually, I was pointing more to sources outside of the forum. Lots of self-righteous banter on Twitter, etc. that usually then bleeds over into other forums, comments sections, and the like.

ridiculous can be very entertaining.

Which is why I lobbied hard, from the outset, for this thread not be locked down.

It is, of course, quite possible to have both ridiculers and serious discussions side-by-side. This thread is living proof.

 

[Granville57]

...Or just change bikes in a perfectly orchestrated bike change like Cancellara(who had no mechanical problem).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al22Nn-6yPs

The interesting thing about that clips is that the original footage that I saw was much higher quality, and from a different angle. The person with the camera was standing almost next to the bike exchange, slightly behind where the swap occurred.

The speed, grace and fluidity of the whole routine was impressive in-and-of itself. The beauty of that choreography is a bit lost on this clip.

But the original was soon taking down from Youtube, which only fueled the fires of suspicion. I hadn't seen this other angle before though, so thanks for sharing.

 

[FitSsikS]

Here's a young rider (Ryder?) long before the XC days:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80994757/

 

[Granville57]

“Apparently they got a lot of messages from the public, so they had to come and investigate,” Fernandez said.

“They came this morning and said that they had to look at the bikes. I think they were almost embarrassed, but they came along and had a look anyway.”
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/sep/04/ryder-hesjedal-motorised-bike-vuelta-espana

makes one wonder.

and what on earth were the UCI hoping to find ?? 5 days later...

Well, exactly.

They should've just said, "Look, we think this is ridiculous, and we know that you think this is ridiculous, but that thread in The Clinic is gaining momentum, so we have to, at the very least, be able to say that we stopped by to chat with you about it."

UCI taking the issue most seriously indeed
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/ryder-hesjedal-criticized-for-motorized-bike-at-vuelta-1.2756005

LOL Nice of the Canadian press to include "... the back wheel of his Cervelo bicycle appeared to keep rolling as if it were motorized."

Then this:

“I must admit, when I clicked on the link and watched the video that went with the story, I was almost convinced myself that something funny was going on,” Garmin-Sharp sports director Bingen Fernandez told UK website Cycling Weekly.

Well that certainly doesn't help JV.


The UCI are doing themselves no favors by timidly tip-toeing into this affair. They only end up making themselves look more ridiculous in the end—as hard as it may be to imagine that there is still room for that.

 

[Bluenote]

Actually, I was pointing more to sources outside of the forum. Lots of self-righteous banter on Twitter, etc. that usually then bleeds over into other forums, comments sections, and the like.


Which is why I lobbied hard, from the outset, for this thread not be locked down.

It is, of course, quite possible to have both ridiculers and serious discussions side-by-side. This thread is living proof.

Wild accusations + ridicule + humor + assumptions presented as facts + serious discussion side by side.

I just wanted the thread to stay open because it's quite entertaining. When everyone is back to work on Monday, will it pick up steam again? How many pages can it muster? Tune in next time...

 

[Granville57]

Canadian technology...

Brilliant post, btw.

 

[Granville57]

Here's a young rider (Ryder?) long before the XC days:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80994757/

You've no idea the money I would pay if it could proven that this actually was Ryder in his formative years.

 

[sniper]

...
I just wanted the thread to stay open because it's quite entertaining...

thank you bluenote! great gesture showing your generosity.