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Sagan Clean?

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Jun 29, 2017
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OK- my opinion and just that!
When money is involved (and even not involved "see Olympics"), it becomes a show. The show makes money. What the athletes or performers will do to make the show good is everything they can can to make the show good. All sports that are making money off the public are sort of rigged are they not? I love cycling, but I watch all sports with a suspended disbelief. All sports are just like WWE which years ago people figured out was fake yet they still watch. Or is it fake? They are still performers doing all they can do to perform. You can either enjoy it or stop watching, it's your choice.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Echoes said:
Museeuw peaking strictly in April, was it normal?
This isn't even an argument. Trying to prove that someone is clean because someone else probably wasn't...
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Giusepperides said:
OK- my opinion and just that!
When money is involved (and even not involved "see Olympics"), it becomes a show. The show makes money. What the athletes or performers will do to make the show good is everything they can can to make the show good. All sports that are making money off the public are sort of rigged are they not? I love cycling, but I watch all sports with a suspended disbelief. All sports are just like WWE which years ago people figured out was fake yet they still watch. Or is it fake? They are still performers doing all they can do to perform. You can either enjoy it or stop watching, it's your choice.
Nothing there regarding Sagan in Sagan thread. Just blanket talking. Or did your words mean Sagan is doping?
 
Kokoso said:
This isn't even an argument. Trying to prove that someone is clean because someone else probably wasn't...
Those in the PRR section know that I'm certainly not the one wishing to prove Sagan is clean. On the contrary I'm waiting for the moment the truth will be revealed if it ever comes.

But rather Durden's argument is a non-argument. It's peaking for one specific moment that is abnormal. Being consistent throughout the season if you are a top rider is the norm.
 
Is Vila even a good coach? The "Live High Train Low" session shortly before Het Nieuwsblad, was that responsible? Michel Wuyts had his doubts about it (live coverage of Paris-Roubaix).

I always keep my doubts in the private sphere when there's no concrete evidxence but about Vila, there is evidence. Let's also remember that he did not dope for any other substance, it was testosteron. Mentioning the incriminated substance is important, not just whether there had been a positive test or not.
 
Echoes said:
Is Vila even a good coach? The "Live High Train Low" session shortly before Het Nieuwsblad, was that responsible? Michel Wuyts had his doubts about it (live coverage of Paris-Roubaix).

I always keep my doubts in the private sphere when there's no concrete evidxence but about Vila, there is evidence. Let's also remember that he did not dope for any other substance, it was testosteron. Mentioning the incriminated substance is important, not just whether there had been a positive test or not.
Correction. He was only ever caught using testosterone. In the history of doping, use of this product alone would be very rare.
 
Echoes said:
Kokoso said:
This isn't even an argument. Trying to prove that someone is clean because someone else probably wasn't...
Those in the PRR section know that I'm certainly not the one wishing to prove Sagan is clean. On the contrary I'm waiting for the moment the truth will be revealed if it ever comes.

But rather Durden's argument is a non-argument. It's peaking for one specific moment that is abnormal. Being consistent throughout the season if you are a top rider is the norm.



Spot on! Great champions are always good, on a high level, rarely off-form, and even then they produce decent results. You can't loose 5 minutes on a mountain in March and April, and then in June and July destroy the whole field with ease!
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Blanco said:
Echoes said:
Kokoso said:
This isn't even an argument. Trying to prove that someone is clean because someone else probably wasn't...
Those in the PRR section know that I'm certainly not the one wishing to prove Sagan is clean. On the contrary I'm waiting for the moment the truth will be revealed if it ever comes.

But rather Durden's argument is a non-argument. It's peaking for one specific moment that is abnormal. Being consistent throughout the season if you are a top rider is the norm.



Spot on! Great champions are always good, on a high level, rarely off-form, and even then they produce decent results. You can't loose 5 minutes on a mountain in March and April, and then in June and July destroy the whole field with ease!
Valverde says hello, guys.
 
Kokoso said:
Blanco said:
Echoes said:
Kokoso said:
This isn't even an argument. Trying to prove that someone is clean because someone else probably wasn't...
Those in the PRR section know that I'm certainly not the one wishing to prove Sagan is clean. On the contrary I'm waiting for the moment the truth will be revealed if it ever comes.

But rather Durden's argument is a non-argument. It's peaking for one specific moment that is abnormal. Being consistent throughout the season if you are a top rider is the norm.



Spot on! Great champions are always good, on a high level, rarely off-form, and even then they produce decent results. You can't loose 5 minutes on a mountain in March and April, and then in June and July destroy the whole field with ease!
Valverde says hello, guys.
And I'm exactly talking about Valverde, Sagan and others who can hold their form throughout the whole season, as a example of true champions...
 
Kokoso said:
Valverde says hello, guys.
It's not because peaking for a very brief period is highly suspicious that all non peakers are clean. Jalabert and Bugno are other counterexamples, though you could argue that Bugno's short career is suspicious while Sagan tiny race day count (61 days this season) contradicts even Durden's argument. Rebellin is another one. I've long stopped thinking that consistent riders were of necessity healthy guys. Don't make me say what I haven't said. However it still remains that before EPO the most complete riders were consistent, the more specialised riders were not and peaking for a specific period still is highly suspicious.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Echoes said:
Kokoso said:
Valverde says hello, guys.
Don't make me say what I haven't said.
You"ve said: "Being consistent throughout the season if you are a top rider is the norm." So...

Anyway for cobbled specialist like Museeuw you've mentioned it's normal and understandable why they peak for just short period od year. Because there are cobbled classics just in one short period of calendar. So no, peaking for short time for cobbled specialist is not suspicious of doping.
 
Well there's nothing in that quote to suggest I said consistent riders were of necessity clean, just that it is the norm. In an idealistic world where dope does not exist, you'd have the best in front on most races and the less good behind. So claiming it is abnormal, certainly when you consider the fact that Sagan has considerably dropped his race day count since his transformation: 80 days in 2015, 71 in 2016, 57 this year. :eek:

If Museeuw is not an argument, than take your Tour of France stars: Armstrong, Ullrich, Riis, Indurain... There's a significant time correlation between the advent of blood doping (EPO in particular) and "specialisation". Coincidence?
 
Aug 20, 2016
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Echoes said:
Well there's nothing in that quote to suggest I said consistent riders were of necessity clean, just that it is the norm. In an idealistic world where dope does not exist, you'd have the best in front on most races and the less good behind. So claiming it is abnormal, certainly when you consider the fact that Sagan has considerably dropped his race day count since his transformation: 80 days in 2015, 71 in 2016, 57 this year. :eek:

If Museeuw is not an argument, than take your Tour of France stars: Armstrong, Ullrich, Riis, Indurain... There's a significant time correlation between the advent of blood doping (EPO in particular) and "specialisation". Coincidence?
Wouldn't Sagan's race day count have been higher this year than last if he'd completed the tour though?
 
Echoes said:
If Museeuw is not an argument, than take your Tour of France stars: Armstrong, Ullrich, Riis, Indurain... There's a significant time correlation between the advent of blood doping (EPO in particular) and "specialisation". Coincidence?
There's also a significant correlation with the professionalisation of the sport, the advent of the World Cup etc. Don't confuse cause and correlation, that's a kindergarden error.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Blanco said:
Kokoso said:
Blanco said:
Echoes said:
Kokoso said:
This isn't even an argument. Trying to prove that someone is clean because someone else probably wasn't...
Those in the PRR section know that I'm certainly not the one wishing to prove Sagan is clean. On the contrary I'm waiting for the moment the truth will be revealed if it ever comes.

But rather Durden's argument is a non-argument. It's peaking for one specific moment that is abnormal. Being consistent throughout the season if you are a top rider is the norm.



Spot on! Great champions are always good, on a high level, rarely off-form, and even then they produce decent results. You can't loose 5 minutes on a mountain in March and April, and then in June and July destroy the whole field with ease!
Valverde says hello, guys.
And I'm exactly talking about Valverde, Sagan and others who can hold their form throughout the whole season, as a example of true champions...
there are witnesses that claim valverde doped with everything under the sun since at least 2002 lmao. Great champion my ass, he was probably doped up since his junior days. Always being good is a big sign of years of heavy doping.
 
brownbobby said:
Echoes said:
Is Vila even a good coach? The "Live High Train Low" session shortly before Het Nieuwsblad, was that responsible? Michel Wuyts had his doubts about it (live coverage of Paris-Roubaix).

I always keep my doubts in the private sphere when there's no concrete evidxence but about Vila, there is evidence. Let's also remember that he did not dope for any other substance, it was testosteron. Mentioning the incriminated substance is important, not just whether there had been a positive test or not.
Correction. He was only ever caught using testosterone. In the history of doping, use of this product alone would be very rare.
Postal, Phonak, Sky...seems a fairly common part of the program to me.
 
El Pistolero said:
Blanco said:
Kokoso said:
Echoes said:
Kokoso said:
This isn't even an argument. Trying to prove that someone is clean because someone else probably wasn't...
Those in the PRR section know that I'm certainly not the one wishing to prove Sagan is clean. On the contrary I'm waiting for the moment the truth will be revealed if it ever comes.

But rather Durden's argument is a non-argument. It's peaking for one specific moment that is abnormal. Being consistent throughout the season if you are a top rider is the norm.



Spot on! Great champions are always good, on a high level, rarely off-form, and even then they produce decent results. You can't loose 5 minutes on a mountain in March and April, and then in June and July destroy the whole field with ease!
Valverde says hello, guys.
And I'm exactly talking about Valverde, Sagan and others who can hold their form throughout the whole season, as a example of true champions...
there are witnesses that claim valverde doped with everything under the sun since at least 2002 lmao. Great champion my ***, he was probably doped up since his junior days. Always being good is a big sign of years of heavy doping.[/quote]


He's been consistently winning since basically the day he started racing at 9 years old. Also his most consecutive wins were when he was a Cadet where he won over 50 straight races that he entered. I'd actually guess he wasn't doping until he joined Kelme where basically if you ride for them you were required to dope.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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You'd guess wrong then. Doping is prevalent in the U23 categories as well. And no, he wasn't required to dope, he made that decision himself. His results mean nothing as he wouldn't have won a fraction of the races he won as a pro if he was clean. Kelme was one of the most disgusting teams to ever exist, using domestiques as guinny pigs nearly killing at least one of them. If hell exists Valverde will burn for his sins, along with all the others who were responsible in maintaining that doping culture + omerta.
 
Re:

El Pistolero said:
You'd guess wrong then. Doping is prevalent in the U23 categories as well. And no, he wasn't required to dope, he made that decision himself. His results mean nothing as he wouldn't have won a fraction of the races he won as a pro if he was clean. Kelme was one of the most disgusting teams to ever exist, using domestiques as guinny pigs nearly killing at least one of them. If hell exists Valverde will burn for his sins, along with all the others who were responsible in maintaining that doping culture + omerta.[/quote

That would still be at Kelme. After he aged out of Juniors he spent one year with Banesto (yes, same he would eventually rejoin) and then went to Kelme where he spent 5 years before rejoining what is now Movistar. Kelme was not a good team to be with when it comes to doping. Much worse than anything US Postal ever did.
 
red_flanders said:
brownbobby said:
Echoes said:
Is Vila even a good coach? The "Live High Train Low" session shortly before Het Nieuwsblad, was that responsible? Michel Wuyts had his doubts about it (live coverage of Paris-Roubaix).

I always keep my doubts in the private sphere when there's no concrete evidxence but about Vila, there is evidence. Let's also remember that he did not dope for any other substance, it was testosteron. Mentioning the incriminated substance is important, not just whether there had been a positive test or not.
Correction. He was only ever caught using testosterone. In the history of doping, use of this product alone would be very rare.
Postal, Phonak, Sky...seems a fairly common part of the program to me.
Yes, that was exactly my point
 
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