Science is coming up with a hypothesis and testing it experimentally. Confirmation bias is making a conclusion and looking only for evidence to support that conclusion. Taking pieces of evidence and connecting the dots is not necessarily science.
plenty of space for a motor and/or electromagnetic wheels here:
http://cycling.today/peter-sagans-specialized-venge-vias-gold-edition/
http://cycling.today/peter-sagans-specialized-venge-vias-gold-edition/
Re:
And regading the "crash": I think you misunderstood what he said. This is from your post
So your evidence that Sagan did not crash is useless because he never claimed he did. And on the contrary, there is evidence that he in some way was affected (at least, delayed) by the crash.
So a rider says he was riding for some 20 minutes on someone's else bike and you dismiss this as a lie unless proven otherwise? Do you realise how risky it would be for him to lie about it in this way? During that time he was riding for quite long time right in front of the TV camera, do you really think he would not be concerned that the camera filmed him on another bike than he claimed? I know the images we have unfortunately did not capture the bike number but could he know this for sure when saying he was not on his bike? And consider also photogaphers on motos and along the road, there could have been plenty of evidence that he lied. Would you not be concerned about using lie in such situation? For me, this in itself is sufficient indirect evidence that what was said was true.Tienus said:
And regading the "crash": I think you misunderstood what he said. This is from your post
See, he did not say he crashed himself, he just referred to crash as the event which preceded and perhaps caused the mechanical. But you said he claimed he crashed and therefore he lied. So what he really said is that he was somehow involved in the crash and that's what you can also see in the video - how otherwise can you explain the gap they had to close to the peloton right after the crash, if not by having to slow down or stop or having to avoid crashed riders or being affected by crash around them in some other way? It took them cca. 45 seconds to rejoin the peloton, so you can calculate yourself how much they were delayed: If we assume they were riding only by 5 kmh faster than the peloton to catch up with it (45kmh vs. 40 kmh), this would mean they had to stop for cca. 5 seconds.
So your evidence that Sagan did not crash is useless because he never claimed he did. And on the contrary, there is evidence that he in some way was affected (at least, delayed) by the crash.
- Oct 10, 2015
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Re:
Every Aero orientated road bike has room for a motor, it's almost like they've been designed for one
sniper said:
Every Aero orientated road bike has room for a motor, it's almost like they've been designed for one
Re: Re:
:lol:
Seriously though is that bike loaded with batteries or what?
Spilled my freshly pressed orange juice all over the screen.Tienus said:
:lol:
Seriously though is that bike loaded with batteries or what?
Re: Re:
no need for the singular here! Think plural.StryderHells said:sniper said:
Every Aero orientated road bike has room for a motor, it's almost like they've been designed for one
I have seen plenty of pro cyclist lie, even when it was obvious to everyone except their biggest fans. I have posted this interview before:
http://www.nbcsports.com/video/peter-sagan-explains-bike-change-stage-15
Sagan is lying about a light climbing bike while he has been riding his venge for hours in the breakaway while being filmed. Sagan is concerned about camera's, thats why he kicks at them and shouts at them to try and make them go away.
I dont think you understand Dutch/Flemmisch but if you read the article its difficult not to assume Sagan fell of his bike and his derailleur was torn off his bike or at least broken in two pieces.
http://www.ad.nl/wielrennen/sagan-nu-genieten-van-een-poosje-verlof~ad32cb40/
At first I posted this autotranslate:
Just before the famous passage to the Wallers-Arenberg forest I had been dropped to make a bike change because my gear machine was broken
The word dropped is used like dropped on the floor.
If you only autotranslate the first part:
Just before the famous passage to the Wallers-Arenberg forest I had to make a bike change after a fall
Re:
This is arguably the original statement which provides no basis for assuming that he actually crashed in the meaning of falling down:
Yes because translating back from Flemish is precisely the right way of finding out what was said originally...Tienus said:
This is arguably the original statement which provides no basis for assuming that he actually crashed in the meaning of falling down:
More about the TDF bike change later.
Re: Re:
"Despite a crash just before the Arenberg Forest followed by a puncture later in the race, the Czech rider managed to enter the Roubaix velodrome in sixth place."
That's a conclusion based on the "had to change bikes due to crash" bit.
So clearly there is basis for assuming that he crashed in the meaning of falling down.
From your own source:PeterB said:
"Despite a crash just before the Arenberg Forest followed by a puncture later in the race, the Czech rider managed to enter the Roubaix velodrome in sixth place."
That's a conclusion based on the "had to change bikes due to crash" bit.
So clearly there is basis for assuming that he crashed in the meaning of falling down.
The Dutch article is not the only news article that claims he crashed himself.
http://www.bikeworldnews.com/2014/04/13/peter-sagan-nabs-sixth-paris-roubaix-crash-puncture/
This is what Sagan said on facebook:
"First of all I'm happy for this result and for the performance as well, even if luck was not on my side.Just before Arenberg I had to change my bike due to a crash, because my rear derailleur had been broken. Then I had a puncture and I continued the race with the bike of Marangoni for 20 km before I could get mine back. In both cases I had to put in a lot of effort to recover and catch up with the peloton, but this is Paris-Roubaix.
Its interesting to note the word both, if he changed with Marangoni it would have been three times. Anyway there was not a lot of effort to recover as you can see looking at the footage. Sagan usually changes on wide roads where he can use the cars to come back. He also likes to change around the feed zones, I have seen other favourites do the same in the few races I've watched wrt this topic.
https://youtu.be/aRJ_s0DeLu0?t=32m50s
At 32:50 the crash and a replay. Two cannondale riders can be seen staying at the back of the peloton after the crash. One cannondale is affected by the crash and this makes sense as one is in the chasing group.
http://www.bikeworldnews.com/2014/04/13/peter-sagan-nabs-sixth-paris-roubaix-crash-puncture/
This is what Sagan said on facebook:
"First of all I'm happy for this result and for the performance as well, even if luck was not on my side.Just before Arenberg I had to change my bike due to a crash, because my rear derailleur had been broken. Then I had a puncture and I continued the race with the bike of Marangoni for 20 km before I could get mine back. In both cases I had to put in a lot of effort to recover and catch up with the peloton, but this is Paris-Roubaix.
Its interesting to note the word both, if he changed with Marangoni it would have been three times. Anyway there was not a lot of effort to recover as you can see looking at the footage. Sagan usually changes on wide roads where he can use the cars to come back. He also likes to change around the feed zones, I have seen other favourites do the same in the few races I've watched wrt this topic.
I have posted before that there was no gap after the crash.
https://youtu.be/aRJ_s0DeLu0?t=32m50s
At 32:50 the crash and a replay. Two cannondale riders can be seen staying at the back of the peloton after the crash. One cannondale is affected by the crash and this makes sense as one is in the chasing group.
Re: Re:
Is it really so difficult to comprehend that that conclusion you point to was reached by editor of the article and it is his own fault that he oversimiplified things and did not get the message right, as well as your fault if you want to refer to his faulty conclusion in your further conversations? "Clearly" it is...sniper said:
Lol, it's everybody's fault except Peter's.
9 out of 10 would probably read that quote the way that editor and Tienus read it.
You said there is "no basis". You were wrong. No harm in that.
9 out of 10 would probably read that quote the way that editor and Tienus read it.
You said there is "no basis". You were wrong. No harm in that.
Re:
Base your arguments on faulty intepretation of facts by a third part at your own peril.
"Clearly" you post here so much that you do not actually bother reading what is posted in between your posts. Or you instantly forget what you read. Otherwise you would have to know that it became important whether Sagan did say he crashed when Tienus claimed that Sagan lied that he crashed because according to TV footage (and Marangoni's blog), he did not. So by showing that Sagan did not actually say he crashed (despite what some editors could have made out of it), claim by Tienus that Sagan lied about it becomes void.sniper said:
Base your arguments on faulty intepretation of facts by a third part at your own peril.
Why I am not surprised that you are not happy with my post?
The discussion is good.
Stop distracting from it by making it about the poster Peter.
The discussion is good.
Stop distracting from it by making it about the poster Peter.
Re:
"I just changed my bike for the sprint because we have more bike, it's a light one for the climb and then it's the aero one, the new venge, what is good for sprint, and then was last 60 km all flat and I change the bike."
Tienus correctly identified the first bike as the old Venge and because this is not "light climbing bike" as such, concluded that Sagan was lying. Okay, at first sight this may seem fair, but let's put it in the context:
1. Even if it is an aero bike, it does not necessarily mean it can not be lighter than another aero bike. The old and new Venge are quite different bikes, to start with. Moreover, as far as I can tell from below images, wheels on the second bike look slightly more aero, so maybe the first wheels were shallower and hence lighter, after all?
2. This is what others wrote about Sagan riding old or new Venge during that TDF:
"Sagan has been switching between the Venge ViAS and the original Venge at the Tour, with the Venge ViAS seemingly reserved for all-out sprint stages (same goes for Cavendish, it seems), and the now old-school Venge often preferred for when things are a little lumpier. Whether that’s to do with comfort, weight, the Venge ViAS’s integrated brakes, or just because that’s what Sagan’s used to riding, we don’t know."*
https://roadcyclinguk.com/gear/tour-de-france-bikes-2015-peter-sagans-specialized-venge-vias.html
As it seems, the new Venge was in no way considered as a climbing bike in that TDF, unlike the old one.
* Some posters here would probably say they know...
3. The fact that the old Venge was indeed a climbing bike of sorts for Sagan in that Tour (except for the hardest stages) can be demonstrated for example right in the following stage to Gap where he finished second from the break:
So to summarise, saying that Sagan lied just because of what he said in that interview seems slightly inappopriate against this context. The bike change can have absolutely simple explanation: he starts on the bike he uses for hilly stages. After the final hill it's all flat at the end and it is going to end in reduced bunch sprint. He has his better sprint bike available from the car so takes opportunity and takes it to be better equipped for the sprint. And the kicking and throwing bidons... well, would you really do that if you want to change bikes unnoticed?
Tienus said:
Finally, I have time to respond to these posts regarding Sagan's alleged lying about bike change in stage 15 of the TDF '15. Now, this is what he actually said in the above interview (his authentic English preserved):
"I just changed my bike for the sprint because we have more bike, it's a light one for the climb and then it's the aero one, the new venge, what is good for sprint, and then was last 60 km all flat and I change the bike."
Tienus correctly identified the first bike as the old Venge and because this is not "light climbing bike" as such, concluded that Sagan was lying. Okay, at first sight this may seem fair, but let's put it in the context:
1. Even if it is an aero bike, it does not necessarily mean it can not be lighter than another aero bike. The old and new Venge are quite different bikes, to start with. Moreover, as far as I can tell from below images, wheels on the second bike look slightly more aero, so maybe the first wheels were shallower and hence lighter, after all?
2. This is what others wrote about Sagan riding old or new Venge during that TDF:
"Sagan has been switching between the Venge ViAS and the original Venge at the Tour, with the Venge ViAS seemingly reserved for all-out sprint stages (same goes for Cavendish, it seems), and the now old-school Venge often preferred for when things are a little lumpier. Whether that’s to do with comfort, weight, the Venge ViAS’s integrated brakes, or just because that’s what Sagan’s used to riding, we don’t know."*
https://roadcyclinguk.com/gear/tour-de-france-bikes-2015-peter-sagans-specialized-venge-vias.html
As it seems, the new Venge was in no way considered as a climbing bike in that TDF, unlike the old one.
* Some posters here would probably say they know...
3. The fact that the old Venge was indeed a climbing bike of sorts for Sagan in that Tour (except for the hardest stages) can be demonstrated for example right in the following stage to Gap where he finished second from the break:
So to summarise, saying that Sagan lied just because of what he said in that interview seems slightly inappopriate against this context. The bike change can have absolutely simple explanation: he starts on the bike he uses for hilly stages. After the final hill it's all flat at the end and it is going to end in reduced bunch sprint. He has his better sprint bike available from the car so takes opportunity and takes it to be better equipped for the sprint. And the kicking and throwing bidons... well, would you really do that if you want to change bikes unnoticed?
All bikes should easily make the minimum 6.8kg, that includes aero and TT bikes with disc wheels. The fact that he possibly uses lighter wheels is suspiscious wrt motor use to me.
You post a quote which says "we don't know". In that case it might as well have to do with hidden motors.
Here a video of the 2015 tarmac and venge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V35aL8J4kWw
"The venge is the faster bike for the sprint finishes"
Sagan did very well in sprints on the 2015 venge before the tour de France where the 2016 venge was introduced. You can look up the results, he had several sprint wins and podiums.
In the 2015 Vuelta he changes a Tarmac for the 2016 Venge which before winning the sprint. That makes more sense with your explanation however I still believe he is cheating.
https://youtu.be/1jnhQu-arSg?t=28m36s
Tarmac at 28:40 and Venge at 31:00
The video I posted would suggest the Tarmac was the climbing bike. From my personal view its mostly marketing from the bike companies.
Why did he not change his bike on the top of the mountain? The team car was there and his descent skills would get him back quickly. Now he could only benefit for 35km from his super aero bike. The same question goes for his Vuelta change where the last 60km where also flat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9BVlfB7wW4
"I told you go"
To me that sounds like he does not want the camera there. The camera was filming him already for a couple of minutes and he filmed his bike to look for a non existing defect.
Look at this example of Roubaix 2015
http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/1.2302241
Sagan has to take a dump as you can see in the photo. I have to give probs for the creativity of Sagan if he is just trying to get rid of the camera. Looking at the video you can see he had to go urgent as he rode his bike into the ditch. According to the commentry the mechanic came to help him.
Not sure if Wiggins also had to take a dump, maybe he crashed or was simulating one. Anyway other riders can also be seen calling the car and stop.
Re:
1. False. In fact, no chance. The Venge VIAS with an SRM is more like 8kg or more. The one sitting right in front of me is a 54 and weighs almost 18lbs without an power meter. Seriously, these are nothing like the older Venge, which would get very close to the 6.8kg limit. Sagan rides a 56, which is heavier still.
2, Further, there isnt a TT bike anywhere in the bunch that is lighter than the VIAS. I dont have my Cervelo P5 TT bike here to weigh, but in general youll find them to hover between 9-10.5kg with a power meter- more with a rear disc wheel. The Shiv is heavier than the P5, so I think you would be shocked at how heavy they are.
3. Using lighter wheels may not yield much- but it is certainly noticeable when climbing with lots of accelerations.
It may be reasonable to ask questions about performances and riders, but I find it helpful to have a modicum of understanding of the technology before asking certain questions.
Tienus said:
1. False. In fact, no chance. The Venge VIAS with an SRM is more like 8kg or more. The one sitting right in front of me is a 54 and weighs almost 18lbs without an power meter. Seriously, these are nothing like the older Venge, which would get very close to the 6.8kg limit. Sagan rides a 56, which is heavier still.
2, Further, there isnt a TT bike anywhere in the bunch that is lighter than the VIAS. I dont have my Cervelo P5 TT bike here to weigh, but in general youll find them to hover between 9-10.5kg with a power meter- more with a rear disc wheel. The Shiv is heavier than the P5, so I think you would be shocked at how heavy they are.
3. Using lighter wheels may not yield much- but it is certainly noticeable when climbing with lots of accelerations.
It may be reasonable to ask questions about performances and riders, but I find it helpful to have a modicum of understanding of the technology before asking certain questions.
You buy yours from a shop, Sagan is riding custom frames. His size is probably custom too. Anayway a vias with DI2 is 7,7 kg:
http://granfondo-cycling.com/specialized-s-works-venge-review/
Light wheels will save 500 gr so 6,8 with SRM is really no problem for a team with money and Specialized as a sponsor.
Again you start to talk about your personal bikes. Do you think Froome won this years mountain ITT in the tour on a bike that weights 9kg without a hidden motor?
I know the benefits of light wheels. Aero wheels can also be sub 1kg a pair as you can see on the cn frontpage today.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/riders-show-off-new-tech-and-custom-gear-tour-down-under-gallery/
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