Saxo Bank crumbling?

[Moose McKnuckles]

My friends, something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

 

[Cerberus]

that is a very good question

Exactly, it can't be because they wanted a more Luxembourgian profile because Saxo already has every rider from Luxenbourg worth having minus Kirchen, and I'm sure they'd have been happy to hire him as well plus a few high level amateurs if that's what it took to secure sponsorship.

This more than anything is what makes me suspect that there is in fact some sort or rift within the team, otherwise I just don't see the point.

 

[kurtinsc]

Exactly, it can't be because they wanted a more Luxembourgian profile because Saxo already has every rider from Luxenbourg worth having minus Kirchen, and I'm sure they'd have been happy to hire him as well plus a few high level amateurs if that's what it took to secure sponsorship.

This more than anything is what makes me suspect that there is in fact some sort or rift within the team, otherwise I just don't see the point.

Maybe the new sponsors just hate Denmark.

 

[Cerberus]

Maybe the new sponsors just hate Denmark.

Inconceivable, we're universally adored.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Maybe the new sponsors just hate Denmark.

How can you hate Denmark? They make those awesome little pastries.

 

[hrotha]

Maybe the new sponsors are Muslim?

 

[JPM London]

Again, I see no need to get into all kinds of conspiracy theories of how all this came to be...

To me it can be quite simple:

Potential sponsor: "I'd like to start a pro-tour team"
Brian Nygaard: "That's funny! I'd like to run a pro-tour team!"
Potential sponsor: "Hmm... Wonder if we could figure something out. But, no, you couldn't both run the team, be the DS and ride up to nine bikes at several different races at the same time. Let's forget it."
Brian Nygaard: "Hmm... Guess you're right. No, wait! I know these guys from when I worked with Tiscali-CSC-Saxo-Bank. One could be a DS the others could be some of the riders. The rest we'll figure out as we go along. But we better keep it quiet - You know, have some secret meetings but not talk abut it in public."
Potential sponsor: "That works for me."

The only problem I have is with how Andersen put the Schlecks into a very difficult position. One thing is that he did stuff behind the scenes on his own, but he also forced the Schlecks to be dishonest by involving them directly so early on. But maybe that bit was necessary as well...

 

[ulrikmm]

How can you hate Denmark? They make those awesome little pastries.

The diet of the Danish general population. 40 minutes of office work pr pastry.

The diet of our riders. 40 kilometers pr slice.

 

[Cerberus]

Again, I see no need to get into all kinds of conspiracy theories of how all this came to be...

To me it can be quite simple:

Potential sponsor: "I'd like to start a pro-tour team"
Brian Nygaard: "That's funny! I'd like to run a pro-tour team!"
Potential sponsor: "Hmm... Wonder if we could figure something out. But, no, you couldn't both run the team, be the DS and ride up to nine bikes at several different races at the same time. Let's forget it."
Brian Nygaard: "Hmm... Guess you're right. No, wait! I know these guys from when I worked with Tiscali-CSC-Saxo-Bank. One could be a DS the others could be some of the riders. The rest we'll figure out as we go along. But we better keep it quiet - You know, have some secret meetings but not talk abut it in public."
Potential sponsor: "That works for me."

The only problem I have is with how Andersen put the Schlecks into a very difficult position. One thing is that he did stuff behind the scenes on his own, but he also forced the Schlecks to be dishonest by involving them directly so early on. But maybe that bit was necessary as well...

I don't think that quite adds up. The sponsor is supposed to be interested in setting up a Luxembourgian ProTour team in which case IMO the logical train of thoughts goes something like:

Potential sponsor: I'd like to start a Luxenbourg ProTour team.
Potential sponsor: Yes, there's a team with no sponsor and a lot of Luxembourgian riders, and they're getting really good results to, both the Luxembourgian guys and the rest, I wonder if they'd be interested.
Riis: Where do I sign?

Obviously though I don't know anything about the specifics, none of us do, so I can't exclude anything, but the way I see it there has to be some reason why they don't want to take over the existing team. It can't be for lack of results or for lack of Luxembourgian riders. I'm not saying it can only be because someone has a beef with Riis or a beef with anyone, I haven't heard any rumours of that before, but there has to be some reason and that's just the first reason I can think of, of the top of my head.

 

[Delicato]

Maybe the new sponsors are Muslim?

LMAO. 10 chars rule

 

[filipo]

First of all sorry, this is clinic stuff but I can't let this hang in the air on its own...

I assume you mean JJ, but as far as I know he never made that claim.
If you don't mind please provide a link...

http://cyclingfansanonymous.blogspot.com/2007/06/black-monday-approaches-jaksches.html

Maybe not the most complete, but that's the first one I found. And, y'know -- google.

 

[HL2037]

Obviously though I don't know anything about the specifics, none of us do, so I can't exclude anything, but the way I see it there has to be some reason why they don't want to take over the existing team. It can't be for lack of results or for lack of Luxembourgian riders. I'm not saying it can only be because someone has a beef with Riis or a beef with anyone, I haven't heard any rumours of that before, but there has to be some reason and that's just the first reason I can think of, of the top of my head.

My guess is that since Brian Nygård and Kim Andersen were doing most of the work, they thought they might as well be in control too. Then there is the added bonus of no more value-based management, demeaning survival camps and listening to the ever annoying BS Christiansen.

Bjarnes way of leading the team has always been closely related to the philosophy also behind companys such as IT-factory and Saxobank. Which have now been exposed as shady to say the least. I don't blame Brian and Kim for trying to lose the whole ideologic dimension.

 

[Barrus]

If you look at Andy's blog on this site I found it interesting that it states that Bjarne still doesn't have a sponsor and in the way it is written it seems as though he is also not really close to finding one. If the Schlecks leave, I think it might by bye bye Bjarne

 

[Anonymous]

If you look at Andy's blog on this site I found it interesting that it states that Bjarne still doesn't have a sponsor and in the way it is written it seems as though he is also not really close to finding one. If the Schlecks leave, I think it might by bye bye Bjarne

+1

At the end of the day, if there is another ProTour caliber team to fill the void AND the riders that deserve good teams find them, then the fact that Riis goes away will likely be a good thing.

Think Manolo Saiz.

 

[ingsve]

It would actually be a little poetic if both Riis team and the Schleck team make it to next year but that neither team gets a PT licence since they've spread the points out too much...

 

[JPM London]

http://cyclingfansanonymous.blogspot.com/2007/06/black-monday-approaches-jaksches.html

Maybe not the most complete, but that's the first one I found. And, y'know -- google.

The article says there was a rumour that JJ said there was systematic doping at CSC and a host of other teams. That was never confirmed IIRC...

However the ski lift conversation between JJ and Riis is mentioned in many places and if it took place as JJ relates it actually points at there being no systematic doping by the team.

If you have anything further (have looked myself a couple of times but never found anything more solid than the rumour) I'm happy to see it, but let's either PM or take it to the clinic instead...

 

[Christian]

Exactly, it can't be because they wanted a more Luxembourgian profile because Saxo already has every rider from Luxenbourg worth having minus Kirchen, and I'm sure they'd have been happy to hire him as well plus a few high level amateurs if that's what it took to secure sponsorship.

Plus:

- Kirchen is likely never to ride again
- Didier still has a contract with Riis (in case Riis finds a sponsor, he won't be free)
- Gastauer still has a contract with AG2R

... and most of all:

- "high level amateurs" do not exist!

I don't think that quite adds up. The sponsor is supposed to be interested in setting up a Luxembourgian ProTour team in which case IMO the logical train of thoughts goes something like:

Potential sponsor: I'd like to start a Luxenbourg ProTour team.
Potential sponsor: Yes, there's a team with no sponsor and a lot of Luxembourgian riders, and they're getting really good results to, both the Luxembourgian guys and the rest, I wonder if they'd be interested.
Riis: Where do I sign?

Obviously though I don't know anything about the specifics, none of us do, so I can't exclude anything, but the way I see it there has to be some reason why they don't want to take over the existing team. It can't be for lack of results or for lack of Luxembourgian riders. I'm not saying it can only be because someone has a beef with Riis or a beef with anyone, I haven't heard any rumours of that before, but there has to be some reason and that's just the first reason I can think of, of the top of my head.

Exactly what I was thinking. If you take over Saxo Bank you have all the best Luxembourgian riders plus a whole bunch of other great ones, plus all the staff, material ... why would you want to miss out on that?



Then last but not least there is the rumour that Auchan is supposed to be the new sponsor, and that is a French company - technically it shouldn't matter to them whether they ride under a Luxembourgish or Danish or Moroccan license. If the sponsor were a Luxembourgish company I could maybe understand it to a certain extend, even though I'd still think it were stupid not to take over from Saxo Bank.

All I can think of is that whoever is pumping in money other than the sponsors (private investors, government?) has gone rather megalomaniacal and lost contact with reality. Sky or Astana will never be possible in Luxembourg.

 

[joe_papp]

+1

At the end of the day, if there is another ProTour caliber team to fill the void AND the riders that deserve good teams find them, then the fact that Riis goes away will likely be a good thing.

Think Manolo Saiz.

Couldn't you make the same argument against any director who's had a rider go positive? I personally am of the belief that there is such a fundamentally doping-friendly worldview in the management ranks of the PT - especially amongst ex-riders who competed during the pre-Puerto years - that there's little point in singling-out B.R. for a flogging. But beyond this, I absolutely fail to see how it's good for the sport to lose one PT-caliber team, even as one is created. Even the guy who runs what's seemingly the most anti-doping-friendly team (JV) is an admitted ex-doper, so losing one team is unlikely to create any cultural shift. And it comes at the expense of an entity that could employ nearly 30 riders and twice as many staff.

No...teams going away is not a good thing.

Beyond that, what does it say for Bobby Julich's ability to create, develop and manage sponsorships that Saxo Bank team might cease to exist? Not much, I would argue.

 

[Anonymous]

Couldn't you make the same argument against any director who's had a rider go positive? I personally am of the belief that there is such a fundamentally doping-friendly worldview in the management ranks of the PT - especially amongst ex-riders who competed during the pre-Puerto years - that there's little point in singling-out B.R. for a flogging. But beyond this, I absolutely fail to see how it's good for the sport to lose one PT-caliber team, even as one is created. Even the guy who runs what's seemingly the most anti-doping-friendly team (JV) is an admitted ex-doper, so losing one team is unlikely to create any cultural shift. And it comes at the expense of an entity that could employ nearly 30 riders and twice as many staff.

No...teams going away is not a good thing.

Beyond that, what does it say for Bobby Julich's ability to create, develop and manage sponsorships that Saxo Bank team might cease to exist? Not much, I would argue.

There will be collateral damage for sure and that is never a good thing and that's not what I meant.

But, if Riis, Lefevere and Bruyneel (among others) were to be shown the door then I think there could be some positives come out of it. If you want to suggest that all team managers are, at the very least, enablers... then the only argument would be one of degrees such as, do you think JV has the same negatives as Bruyneel, for example?

 

[filipo]

The article says there was a rumour that JJ said there was systematic doping at CSC and a host of other teams. That was never confirmed IIRC...

However the ski lift conversation between JJ and Riis is mentioned in many places and if it took place as JJ relates it actually points at there being no systematic doping by the team.

If you have anything further (have looked myself a couple of times but never found anything more solid than the rumour) I'm happy to see it, but let's either PM or take it to the clinic instead...

I'll go with the "rumor," thanks.

 

[joy118118]

+1

At the end of the day, if there is another ProTour caliber team to fill the void AND the riders that deserve good teams find them, then the fact that Riis goes away will likely be a good thing.

Think Manolo Saiz.

KA was caught twice. Riis away, KA in, is it a good thing?

see no difference between them.

 

[craig1985]

There will be collateral damage for sure and that is never a good thing and that's not what I meant.

But, if Riis, Lefevere and Bruyneel (among others) were to be shown the door then I think there could be some positives come out of it. If you want to suggest that all team managers are, at the very least, enablers... then the only argument would be one of degrees such as, do you think JV has the same negatives as Bruyneel, for example?

You can add Mauro Gianetti to the list as well.

 

[Christian]

Beyond that, what does it say for Bobby Julich's ability to create, develop and manage sponsorships that Saxo Bank team might cease to exist? Not much, I would argue.

I was thinking that too - of course it's difficult to find sponsors these days, but if Saxo Bank can't find a replacement, then who can?!

In other news, Auchan has denied being the new sponsor for Andersen and Nygard

 

[joy118118]

I was thinking that too - of course it's difficult to find sponsors these days, but if Saxo Bank can't find a replacement, then who can?!

In other news, Auchan has denied being the new sponsor for Andersen and Nygard

HTC-Columbia has just found Skype to be their sponsor. Both teams have very good results but on sponsors they are very different.

 

[craig1985]

Surely it's much easier to find a co-sponsor to pay a smaller amount of euro then it is to find somebody to be a title sponsor. I mean Saxo Bank is a 10-15m euro per year team, so it's hard to find companies that will fork out so much money.