Sean Yates

[will10]

You know this because she's been tweeting about it. So you're saying she has time and energy and phone credit enough to tweet sympathy t****s, but not time or energy to try and patch up the fuster cluck of a key back-office person leaving?

Disagree.

This post is special.

 

[Velo_vicar]

Wow! You really think Brad went from autobus to 4th behind a doped Armstrong in 2009 clean! You really think Garmin had any hand in his performance, even though it was Sky coaching him! You really think Sky would coach someone so well, for the first time, that they would get 4th and have to pay him and his current team millions $$ for salary and transfer.

Then, after his first year at Zero Tolerance Policy Team Sky, and only coming 24th - same coach mind you, and a much richer setup, full of marginal gains and attention to detail, he had this to say:

i don't jump to any definite conclusions. i think that you could reaad it either way. i do read your posts with interest but one of the weaknesses i find in them is that you seem to have a fixed linear path that riders should take in their development and a fixed improvement that PEDs make to a rider. i am not ruling them out but there are other factors to consider as these riders are human not robots. In all sports you see some people break through later than others. Some of it is opportunity some of it motivation some of it luck. When it comes to PEDs the difficult thing in judging performances is that PED made some ok rides good and some good riders great and some rubbish riders ok enough to go pro. It also meant that great 'clean' riders might have been average and ok clean riders might have missed out on a profession all together. When Jens says he was clean and we see his results were better than known dopers it doesn't prove he was doping. As far as we know he could have been the greatest rider there ever was but in the EPO era he was just 'good'. that is the sadness of all of this we will never know.
Interesting to read McGee's story if he did finish 35th 'clean' at the height of the EPO era who is to say that had the race been clean that might not have won the race. A pursuiter winning the TdF?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

i don't jump to any definite conclusions. i think that you could reaad it either way. i do read your posts with interest but one of the weaknesses i find in them is that you seem to have a fixed linear path that riders should take in their development and a fixed improvement that PEDs make to a rider. i am not ruling them out but there are other factors to consider as these riders are human not robots. In all sports you see some people break through later than others. Some of it is opportunity some of it motivation some of it luck. When it comes to PEDs the difficult thing in judging performances is that PED made some ok rides good and some good riders great and some rubbish riders ok enough to go pro. It also meant that great 'clean' riders might have been average and ok clean riders might have missed out on a profession all together. When Jens says he was clean and we see his results were better than known dopers it doesn't prove he was doping. As far as we know he could have been the greatest rider there ever was but in the EPO era he was just 'good'. that is the sadness of all of this we will never know.
Interesting to read McGee's story if he did finish 35th 'clean' at the height of the EPO era who is to say that had the race been clean that might not have won the race. A pursuiter winning the TdF?

I don't think Brad was dumb enough to get caught up in Padua, his off-shore accounts were handled elsewhere, but the Padua investigation tells me doping is stilll happening - with the elite of the sport. And that Sky and Brad dominated them regardless.

I do not buy he did that clean.

As for hypotheticals of riders and what they might have done if 100,000 other variables were different - no idea.

I do know in 2008 the Aussies were surprised they did not qualify at the IP (as reported by CN).

I do know Hayles got pinged for 50.3% Hct at 2008 worlds - along with a Dutch rider - and claimed to have a naturally high one, even though 50% Hct has been around since 1997 and he did not have an exemption.

The other Dutch (Jenning) rider at those champs beat Brad Wiggins in qualifying. That to me is suspicious. He went 9 seconds quicker than he had 9 weeks prior. Wiggins still won, but I bet he was a bit shaken.

Fast forward to the Olympics games and Hayles is not competing, didn't get selected. Brailsford mgt style 101. Wiggins wins. What about the guy who beat Wiggins in qualifying 5 months earlier? Well, there's a picture of him doing the pursuit, and absolutely no mention of his race or any issues in said race. If you can find any, please let me know. All I know is:

Olympic testing is different to World champs testing.
Olympics were in Manchester - Brad's home track.
The Dutch rider who beat Wiggins by a second at World Champs went 22 seconds slower at the Olympics.

The Dutch rider who was caught at the same time as Hayles? He only targeted 2 races this year - and won both. Dutch national road champs was one of those races. Usually you'd say 2 peaks a year makes sense, but in this instance, I think it's a bit dodgy.

 

[Tinman]

Good post all of it, thought this point interesting. TBH I think Brailsford did see it coming, and had planned it and worked toward it, although it might have surprised him the ease he managed to do it in the end.

Some talk of Brailsford being an evil genius, a master of a sophisticated doping regime and of media spin, but I actually think he's been really stupid, and Sky's PR has lurched from one blunder to another. For me Sky couldn't have left themselves more open to accusations of doping if they tried, from training on Teide to employing Yates, Leinders, Julich, Rogers et al. It's a right dog's dinner of a PR campaign really, and even seeds doubt in my mind (and apparently I'm a fanboy).

Welcome to the Sky sceptics club. Another beer, this time on me. You are going to be under the table in no time with so many new found friends.

I suspect Brailsfords' biggest contribution was the putting together of the broader team. I suspect Yates would have been responsible for the US Postal emulated EPO/BB logistics program (under Leinders' medical oversight), he certainly had the past connections and know how. They probably over did things a bit as a team (Wiggo, Rogers, Froome & possibly Porte although he may not have been part of the inside doping circle). As an individual doping GT contender in another team it was impossible to compete with them. They certainly did not anticipate the huge fallout as a result of Tyler's book and USADA.

And Brailsford is now desperately trying to save his own a**e (and Murdoch's dwindling reputation; "scumbag" celebrities didn't help, Pat take notice) without upsetting people too much for them to spill the beans. And yes, definitely NDA's will be in place in return for hard cash. And trying to facilitate soft landings elsewhere for Rogers and the others.

 

[Avoriaz]

Dear dear Wiggo,

You present some good arguments. However, can you please stop presenting Bradley Wiggins one time saying in an interview "I'm doing it my way" as evidence of cheating.

Similarly the whole "in 2009 he was coached by Sky" can you let it go. If Rod Ellingworth was some kind of evil genius, you might think Mark Cavendish (who is coached by Ellingworth) would have got to San Remo with the leaders as opposed to the broom wagon.

We have to stop hanging on one offs and reading what we want to read. It doesn't work.

You may have asked me to read it, and I refused, but I subsequently read "The Sky's the Limit". May I suggest you do the same? If only to release the "I did it my way" guff.

Sky revisited the whole approach at the end of 2010. This did not necessarily include buying shares in Astra Zeneca

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Dear dear Wiggo,

You present some good arguments. However, can you please stop presenting Bradley Wiggins one time saying in an interview "I'm doing it my way" as evidence of cheating.

Similarly the whole "in 2009 he was coached by Sky" can you let it go. If Rod Ellingworth was some kind of evil genius, you might think Mark Cavendish (who is coached by Ellingworth) would have got to San Remo with the leaders as opposed to the broom wagon.

We have to stop hanging on one offs and reading what we want to read. It doesn't work.

You may have asked me to read it, and I refused, but I subsequently read "The Sky's the Limit". May I suggest you do the same? If only to release the "I did it my way" guff.

Sky revisited the whole approach at the end of 2010. This did not necessarily include buying shares in Astra Zeneca

Dear Avoriaz

Thanks. No, it's integral to the mindset, not evidence of cheating.

No, it's the truth. If anything I am saying RE had NO idea Brad was going to come 4th, not that he was some evil genious. Look at it like this:

Variables: Team + coach + rider
2009 poor ($) team + RE + Brad Wiggins = 4th. JV says, "I couldn't tell Brad what to do [paraphrased]". Great mates with Lance.
Result = Brad or RE.

2010 rich ($) team + RE + Brad Wiggins = 24th - what has changed? just the team. a better team, what's more. Brad is being told what to do - "I had too many advisors". "I love Lance".
Result = Brad or team.

Brad says, "stuff this, i'm not a by the book rider, im going to do it my way".

2011 rich ($) team + RE + Brad Wiggins = 3rd @ Vuelta - what has changed? Just the rider. Back to the "do it my way" of 2009 and the same results.
Result = Brad.

Sky's the limit is a book written by Richard Moore, about a Sky sponsored team. I will not read it on the grounds that Richard Moore is a Sky employee, and it is published in the UK, where libel laws are draconian. I would definitely not ask anyone else to read it.

 

[mektronic]

I don't think Brad was dumb enough to get caught up in Padua, his off-shore accounts were handled elsewhere, but the Padua investigation tells me doping is stilll happening - with the elite of the sport. And that Sky and Brad dominated them regardless.

I do not buy he did that clean.

As for hypotheticals of riders and what they might have done if 100,000 other variables were different - no idea.

I do know in 2008 the Aussies were surprised they did not qualify at the IP (as reported by CN).

I do know Hayles got pinged for 50.3% Hct at 2008 worlds - along with a Dutch rider - and claimed to have a naturally high one, even though 50% Hct has been around since 1997 and he did not have an exemption.

The other Dutch (Jenning) rider at those champs beat Brad Wiggins in qualifying. That to me is suspicious. He went 9 seconds quicker than he had 9 weeks prior. Wiggins still won, but I bet he was a bit shaken.

Fast forward to the Olympics games and Hayles is not competing, didn't get selected. Brailsford mgt style 101. Wiggins wins. What about the guy who beat Wiggins in qualifying 5 months earlier? Well, there's a picture of him doing the pursuit, and absolutely no mention of his race or any issues in said race. If you can find any, please let me know. All I know is:

Olympic testing is different to World champs testing.
Olympics were in Manchester - Brad's home track.
The Dutch rider who beat Wiggins by a second at World Champs went 22 seconds slower at the Olympics.

The Dutch rider who was caught at the same time as Hayles? He only targeted 2 races this year - and won both. Dutch national road champs was one of those races. Usually you'd say 2 peaks a year makes sense, but in this instance, I think it's a bit dodgy.

Worth mentioning that at the Olympics Jenning Huizenga had a hilarious aero position with double level aerobars which failed spectacularly. He rode a normal aero position for the World Champs.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Worth mentioning that at the Olympics Jenning Huizenga had a hilarious aero position with double level aerobars which failed spectacularly. He rode a normal aero position for the World Champs.

Yes I saw his praying mantis position.

It's more aerodynamic than a traditional aero position, and was used very effectively by Floyd and Levi to great effect in TTs, before finally being outlawed by the UCI.

You can guarantee if the UCI outlawed it, it was advantageous.

I doubt an athlete at that level used that position for the first time at the games, but it does provide one possible explanation. Like I said - if anyone can dig up an interview... hmm I'll go look.


ETA:

http://www.jenninghuizenga.nl/2008.htm

Just before his departure to Beijing was Jenning outwardly reticent about his chances. "It's all so close together, it depends on the shape of the day and details can make the difference." Those details are available in his riding position. From bicycle tunnel testing in Marknesse there still appeared to be gained. Jenning has that new attitude on the road tested and is positive about it. Athletic seen it is no problem for him a different attitude. "I'm very limber and supple. I can be in any position desired power supply. The new attitude was getting used to, but I think I got the hang of it. It is certainly promising in a match. "

Whether it is indeed true show tomorrow, Friday, August 15, when the qualifications for the individual pursuit on the Olympic program. Once in Beijing he has something concrete about his chances: "If I get the level of Manchester, I can repeat that success.''

...
BEIJING (Reuters) - Jenning to its position on the bike adjusted slightly. According to an international jury meets the wheel on his track bike does not meet the guidelines.
Jenning trained the past month and a half with a slightly upward sloping control. In that, in the wind tunnel determined attitude, he would have a gain of 2 to 3 seconds can make.
...
Jenning inexplicable last

BEIJING - Jenning's Friday on the individual pursuit of the Olympics failed to qualify for the next round. In the qualifications noted the vice world champion Manchester unexplained eighteenth slowest time of 4.37,097.

Halfway through his match against Hayden Roulston (New Zealand) was Jenning already been run. That should have given him a mental blow. The dramatic action is a big disappointment. In the middle area he ran after his match, shaking his head around.
The British world champion Bradley Wiggins was the fastest in qualifying with an Olympic record time of 4.15,031

(Good grief)
Mysterious virus keeps Jenning on the side

FRANEKER - Jenning's still not in a decent training. A mysterious virus prevented him much labor. "It's a Pheiffer-like virus, so I can do little. It is unclear how and where I've accumulated. About a month before the Olympics, I began to play tricks. You do not currently specify and hopes that in time will be better. " That was wishful thinking, his Olympic appearance ended in bitter disappointment. Recovery may take a while. Therefore it is also unclear how his program is the next track season will look like. "The NK track cycling in December will be difficult. I hope the World Cup in March is to be achieved ".

Pheiffer-like virus = a contagious illness caused by the Epstein-Barr virus.

That old chestnut.

 

[Parker]

Sky's the limit is a book written by Richard Moore, about a Sky sponsored team. I will not read it on the grounds that Richard Moore is a Sky employee, and it is published in the UK, where libel laws are draconian. I would definitely not ask anyone else to read it.

If you want to make a considered opinion on anything, you have to be prepared to read all sources - not just those that agree with your pre-conceived point of view.
You seem to be like the fundamentalist church, asking people not to read anything from Galileo, through Darwin, to Dawkins.

Your unwillingness to read it marks you out as a fundamentalist. (It's actually quite critical of Sky in many parts)

 

[Dear Wiggo]

If you want to make a considered opinion on anything, you have to be prepared to read all sources - not just those that agree with your pre-conceived point of view.
You seem to be like the fundamentalist church, asking people not to read anything from Galileo, through Darwin, to Dawkins.

Your unwillingness to read it marks you out as a fundamentalist. (It's actually quite critical of Sky in many parts)

As there is no corroborating evidence of any claims in the book - by other authors - how do you test its veracity?

Bad blood recounts the time intersecting with Millar's book - so I am happy to buy and read that. I dislike Millar's schtick entirely. I have Bad Blood, Rough Ride, The Secret Race and now Racing Through the Dark. The theme? Honesty: we doped. Or we know doping was going on.

I imagine Sky's book says anything but.

Fundamentalists expect you to believe in one thing only - the bible - and you are not allowed to question it.

Nowhere did I say "do not read that book" - I simply said I am not interested. To clarify - not until there is an independent soure for verification.

The fundamentalist analogy is telling. For there are plenty of criticisms in the bible of God's people, but in the end, the bible strongly suggests you should become one.

 

[Parker]

Nowhere did I say "do not read that book"

I would definitely not ask anyone else to read it.

More or less the same thing.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

More or less the same thing.

For an ESL perhaps.

 

[mektronic]

Yes I saw his praying mantis position.



It's more aerodynamic than a traditional aero position, and was used very effectively by Floyd and Levi to great effect in TTs, before finally being outlawed by the UCI.

You can guarantee if the UCI outlawed it, it was advantageous.

I doubt an athlete at that level used that position for the first time at the games, but it does provide one possible explanation. Like I said - if anyone can dig up an interview... hmm I'll go look.

It is not always more aerodynamic, it depends on body shape (specifically shoulder and hip width).

He did aerodynamic testing on a velodrome to check the position before the Olympics but unfortunately used a normal road helmet for the testing rather than a tailed aero helmet. This changes the airflow over the head/upper arms considerably and helps favour the mantis position. Stick a tailed helmet on and for a rider of his height and proportion a traditional flat arm position would likely be better. He did only use the position for the Olympics too, but then it would have fallen foul of the ruling subsequently and he only just got away with it using the two-tier bars.

 

[Tinman]

It is not always more aerodynamic, it depends on body shape (specifically shoulder and hip width).

He did aerodynamic testing on a velodrome to check the position before the Olympics but unfortunately used a normal road helmet for the testing rather than a tailed aero helmet. This changes the airflow over the head/upper arms considerably and helps favour the mantis position. Stick a tailed helmet on and for a rider of his height and proportion a traditional flat arm position would likely be better. He did only use the position for the Olympics too, but then it would have fallen foul of the ruling subsequently and he only just got away with it using the two-tier bars.

Don't forget the large "radio" between the shoulder blades to minimize turbulent flow (and extend laminar flow)coming off the head.

 

[mektronic]

On the track?

 

[coinneach]

[quote

Sky's the limit is a book written by Richard Moore, about a Sky sponsored team. I will not read it on the grounds that Richard Moore is a Sky employee, and it is published in the UK, where libel laws are draconian. I would definitely not ask anyone else to read it.[/QUOTE]

Slag off wiggins murdoch brailsford sky etc but PLEASE lay off Richard Moore!
Have a wee read about what he has written and who he has written for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Moore_(journalist)

His recent book is called the "Dirtiest Race in History"
Its about the 100m in the Olympics

Someone with a sense of balance and perspective might broaden your view of the world, Dear Dear Wiggo

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

[quote

Sky's the limit is a book written by Richard Moore, about a Sky sponsored team. I will not read it on the grounds that Richard Moore is a Sky employee, and it is published in the UK, where libel laws are draconian. I would definitely not ask anyone else to read it.

Slag off wiggins murdoch brailsford sky etc but PLEASE lay off Richard Moore!
Have a wee read about what he has written and who he has written for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Moore_(journalist)

His recent book is called the "Dirtiest Race in History"
Its about the 100m in the Olympics

Someone with a sense of balance and perspective might broaden your view of the world, Dear Dear Wiggo[/QUOTE]

How is he meant to find time to read a book when he is on here all day, every day picking on Wiggins?

 

[bobbins]

[quote

Sky's the limit is a book written by Richard Moore, about a Sky sponsored team. I will not read it on the grounds that Richard Moore is a Sky employee, and it is published in the UK, where libel laws are draconian. I would definitely not ask anyone else to read it.

Slag off wiggins murdoch brailsford sky etc but PLEASE lay off Richard Moore!
Have a wee read about what he has written and who he has written for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Moore_(journalist)

His recent book is called the "Dirtiest Race in History"
Its about the 100m in the Olympics

Someone with a sense of balance and perspective might broaden your view of the world, Dear Dear Wiggo[/QUOTE]

To be fair, he is in Sky's pocket. See him getting rolled out onto sky sports to comment and he is never critical of sky. As the Armstrong affair has taught us, very few journalists bite the hand that feeds them.

 

[coinneach]

To be fair, he is in Sky's pocket. See him getting rolled out onto sky sports to comment and he is never critical of sky. As the Armstrong affair has taught us, very few journalists bite the hand that feeds them.[/QUOTE]

You make a valid point, and have the benefit of SkySports (personally, I wouldn't give them a ha'penny)

But he's not employed by News International and has a good record of being honest about doping (in Search of Robert Millar, anyway)

The original point was whether he was worth reading, and I'd still say yes, but it is a dirty old world of ethical dilemmas journalists inhabit.

 

[Freddythefrog]

To be fair, he is in Sky's pocket. See him getting rolled out onto sky sports to comment and he is never critical of sky. As the Armstrong affair has taught us, very few journalists bite the hand that feeds them.

You make a valid point, and have the benefit of SkySports (personally, I wouldn't give them a ha'penny)

But he's not employed by News International and has a good record of being honest about doping (in Search of Robert Millar, anyway)

The original point was whether he was worth reading, and I'd still say yes, but it is a dirty old world of ethical dilemmas journalists inhabit.[/QUOTE]

I think the facts regarding what Robert Millar thinks of Richard Moore might lead to a different view as to the sanctity of Moore's writing.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Sky's the limit is a book written by Richard Moore, about a Sky sponsored team. I will not read it on the grounds that Richard Moore is a Sky employee, and it is published in the UK, where libel laws are draconian. I would definitely not ask anyone else to read it.

Slag off wiggins murdoch brailsford sky etc but PLEASE lay off Richard Moore!

So saying Richard Moore is a Sky employee and the libel laws in UK are draconian is "slagging off Richard Moore".

Right. Gotcha.

Have a wee read about what he has written and who he has written for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Moore_(journalist)

His recent book is called the "Dirtiest Race in History"
Its about the 100m in the Olympics

Any British runners mentioned in that book? Just curious. Coz if there aren't, you just proved my point.

To be fair, he is in Sky's pocket. See him getting rolled out onto sky sports to comment and he is never critical of sky. As the Armstrong affair has taught us, very few journalists bite the hand that feeds them.

You make a valid point, and have the benefit of SkySports (personally, I wouldn't give them a ha'penny)

But he's not employed by News International and has a good record of being honest about doping (in Search of Robert Millar, anyway)

So "he's in Sky's pocket ... and never critical of Sky" is a "valid point"?

You change your tune pretty quick. Or is bobbins allowed to "slag off" Moore coz his forum name sounds British?

 

[Mellow Velo]

So saying Richard Moore is a Sky employee and the libel laws in UK are draconian is "slagging off Richard Moore".

Right. Gotcha.

Any British runners mentioned in that book? Just curious. Coz if there aren't, you just proved my point.


So "he's in Sky's pocket ... and never critical of Sky" is a "valid point"?

You change your tune pretty quick. Or is bobbins allowed to "slag off" Moore coz his forum name sounds British?

If it's the race I think it probably is then yes, Linford Christie.

Just came onto the thread to say that there has been some pretty hopeless quoting going on.
Is it really that hard?
It's a useful tool when used as in Dear Wiggo's latest post..........................mind you, he's had an awful lot of practice.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Whilst the focus is obvious Lewis - Johnson, I think of the 8 runners, only the Smith and De Silva have not been linked with drugs, through a positive test, or supplier testimony.

Two of the runners are under life bans (Johnson and Ray Stewart).

Lets see in a few years how the 2012 Olympics sprint races look against it, before truly labelling it the dirtiest race in history.

 

[coinneach]

Care to enlighten me?

 

[coinneach]

So saying Richard Moore is a Sky employee and the libel laws in UK are draconian is "slagging off Richard Moore".

Right. Gotcha. he's a freelance journalist: gets work where he can.



Any British runners mentioned in that book? Just curious. Coz if there aren't, you just proved my point. Do you ever bother to look anything up before you post and make yourself look like a t****r?






So "he's in Sky's pocket ... and never critical of Sky" is a "valid point"?

You change your tune pretty quick. Or is bobbins allowed to "slag off" Moore coz his forum name sounds British?

I am always willing to re-evaluate my position when other people make points: Of course the Murdoch influence in the British Press cannot be ignored, and perhaps I underestimated its potential influence. But I happen to enjoy Richard Moores writing. Would he be strong enough to do a Krimmage? I doubt it, but we can't all be heros.
It hadn't occurred to me that Bobbins might be British, but now that you mention it. He was, however, unlike you, making a valid point
Maybe in future I'll look at the name of the poster and decide if it'll be worth reading......might reduce our interaction though