Teams & Riders Sepp Kuss is the next Sepp Kuss thread

[LookProGoSlow]

Kamp Kuss is under siege

 

[dobrien]

Right now they are gifting the win to Jonas by not allowing Kuss/Rog to ride as they like. They need to wait for Jonas to make his best move which means they are gifting time to him. I guess Jonas has no problem taking gifts but Kuss should be embarassed?

Look, Sepp is absolutely one of my top 3 favorite riders, a great dude and I'd love to see him win it. But he got gapped at the end today which says he was at or very near his limits; he at least wasn't doing much more than that today. I'm still hopeful he was just blocked after the rest day and will be storming tomorrow.

Different note: I know what Jonas did today is really bugging some people but cycling by its nature at times is very cold blooded. People are entitled to their opinions, but imagine for a moment you are hands down the best GT rider in the world (with possibly one exception), and let's say for the sake of argument you've got the legs tomorrow to win outright on the Angliru by two minutes. How many of those skewering Jonas would really be willing to sit on those legs and soft pedal if they were in that situation? Note I think it would be a very different story if tomorrow was Saturday, but we are still way too far from the finish for that.

Just my .02.

 

[Gargamel35]

What? Today's win wasn't a gift. Neither was Tourmalet. Roglic couldn't have done either of those. It's not his style and it's not where his strength lies.

Yes, Vingo profited in both instances from the lack of an organized chase, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have won regardless.

I guess we will never know since Kuss or Rog aren't allowed to race. They were both stronger then Jonas on Tourmalet and halfed the time he made in just last km or so. But they were allowed to race only at the end when Jonas got enough time. That's a gift. JV is gifting Jonas free pass for attacks when he wants it knowing Kuss/Rog don't have that pass and that they are not allowed to follow until the last km. All gifts.

 

[Gargamel35]

Look, Sepp is absolutely one of my top 3 favorite riders, a great dude and I'd love to see him win it. But he got gapped at the end today which says he was at or very near his limits; he at least wasn't doing much more than that today. I'm still hopeful he was just blocked after the rest day and will be storming tomorrow.

Different note: I know what Jonas did today is really bugging some people but cycling by its nature at times is very cold blooded. People are entitled to their opinions, but imagine for a moment you are hands down the best GT rider in the world (with possibly one exception), and let's say for the sake of argument you've got the legs tomorrow to win outright on the Angliru by two minutes. How many of those skewering Jonas would really be willing to sit on those legs and soft pedal if they were in that situation? Note I think it would be a very different story if tomorrow was Saturday, but we are still way too far from the finish for that.

Just my .02.

Many had to do it (soft pedaling) on Tourmalet so that birthday guy managed to get a gap both Kuss and Rog halfed in the last km when they were allowed to go. Both were strong enough to match Jonas or were even better that day. But they soft pedalled because that was the plan.

Plan today was to win with Roglič and Kuss/Jonas try to follow at the end. Jonas decided to crap on the plan and went earlier in the attack leaving Kuss/Rog behind who were instructed not to follow.

Tommorow Kuss wins Angliru with Jonas right behind him and then JV finds a way to strip red jersey of Kuss and gift it to their golden boy.

 

[theyoungest]

I guess we will never know since Kuss or Rog aren't allowed to race. They were both stronger then Jonas on Tourmalet and halfed the time he made in just last km or so. But they were allowed to race only at the end when Jonas got enough time. That's a gift. JV is gifting Jonas free pass for attacks when he wants it knowing Kuss/Rog don't have that pass and that they are not allowed to follow until the last km. All gifts.

Okay. Everything Vingegaard wins is a gift, I get it. But maybe riding 7 k on the front solo is a bit harder than following wheels for the entire climb and sprinting away in the final k... just a thought.

 

[Gargamel35]

Okay. Everything Vingegaard wins is a gift, I get it. But maybe riding 7 k on the front solo is a bit harder than following wheels for the entire climb and sprinting away in the final k... just a thought.

Not hard at all if no one decides (or isn't allowed) to chase you and continues to softpedal.
Besides that, winning a sprint is not easy at all. Just ask Jonas how many he has won so far.

 

[theyoungest]

Not hard at all if no one decides (or isn't allowed) to chase you and continues to softpedal.
Besides that, winning a sprint is not easy at all. Just ask Jonas how many he has won so far.

If it's so easy then why doesn't Roglic ever do it? He's allowed to, you know. Nobody will stop him if he attacks somewhere. Not from his own team at least.

 

[Gargamel35]

If it's so easy then why doesn't Roglic ever do it? He's allowed to, you know. Nobody will stop him if he attacks somewhere. Not from his own team at least.

He already did it this Vuelta. But after that he wasn't allowed any more because Jonas got that shot twice. Do you even watch cycling?

 

[CyclistAbi]

To win this race Kuss will need to fight Rogla and Jonas like he never fought before. A moment of hesitation and it's all over. Go for it Sepp and do your best.

 

[Gargamel35]

To win this race Kuss will need to fight Rogla and Jonas like he never fought before. A moment of hesitation and it's all over. Go for it Sepp and do your best.

He needs to fight Jonas and JV management. No chance.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Gargamel35

Nah. Kuss has a chance. He is a great climber. That is if he will have the legs he should go for it, regardless of what the other two are doing. By instinct, not radio. No need to wait any more and to lose time. If legs are up for more.

 

[Berniece]

With how good Roglic and definitely Vingegaard are riding they could decide that each of them sits on the wheel of Mas and Ayuso. Just follow them, you are ahead in the GC anyway. If Kuss breaks he’ll lose the jersey to one of you, if he doesn’t he keeps it. But this way you don’t attack your teammate and take the jersey from your super domestique who helped win you other GT’s

 

[ice&fire]

Happy birthday, Sepp. Today your dear friend Jonas will dedicate to you the stage win and red jersey at the top of the iconic Angliru.

 

[Berniece]

I'm really surprised by how professional Kuss behaves after yesterday and today, or surprised how weak he is mentally to accept all of this

 

[Ulle97]

Right so lads, can anybody explain this to me?
We have an unusual situation where 3 riders on the same team are occupying the top 3 positions and all within touching distance of each other.

What is the etiquette that should be followed?

The weakest of the 3 men is in the lead. It appears no matter what Jumbo do here they will be criticized. If Jonas and Primoz sit up, they will let Sepp win, when in truth he is not the strongest in the race and at the expense of their own GC ambitions.


There are many saying that Kuss should be 'allowed' to win because he has been a great domestique to these men in the past and deserves to be given this win, but surely it would be a discredited victory to win this Vuelta without the two strongest riders being allowed to race properly.

This is one of the dilemmas of being the strongest team in the world.

 

[Red Lobster]

I'm really surprised by how professional Kuss behaves after yesterday and today, or surprised how weak he is mentally to accept all of this

Why is it mental weakness? I'd reject that characterization. While I think Kuss would like to win, at the same time I really don't think it's that important to him. He likes the role he has now, and that gets complicated / awkward as a "GT winner".

 

[Extinction]

Right so lads, can anybody explain this to me?
We have an unusual situation where 3 riders on the same team are occupying the top 3 positions and all within touching distance of each other.

What is the etiquette that should be followed?

The weakest of the 3 men is in the lead. It appears no matter what Jumbo do here they will be criticized. If Jonas and Primoz sit up, they will let Sepp win, when in truth he is not the strongest in the race and at the expense of their own GC ambitions.


There are many saying that Kuss should be 'allowed' to win because he has been a great domestique to these men in the past and deserves to be given this win, but surely it would be a discredited victory to win this Vuelta without the two strongest riders being allowed to race properly.

This is one of the dilemmas of being the strongest team in the world.

Simply, were the others further behind and forced into a domestique role, they protect him, and rightly so.This not being the case, however, they race to win, so long as that doesn't jeapordize Jumbo winning, which, by now, is most unlikely.

 

[Berniece]

Why is it mental weakness? I'd reject that characterization. While I think Kuss would like to win, at the same time I really don't think it's that important to him. He likes the role he has now, and that gets complicated / awkward as a "GT winner".

He worked his ass off for those guys for multiple years. Because he rode brilliantly he is now the leader in a GC, something that will be hard to replicate every again (his words). Without him Roglic would have 2 GT's less on his palmares (Vuelta couple of years ago and this years Giro). He's an amazing domestique and now found him in the position to win this Vuelta. I find it weak that for some reason you accept that Vingegaard/Roglic ride you out of that jersey and that win. If Kuss wouldn't finish on the podium, sure, that's fair that they would take over. But that isn't the case. The podium will be only Jumbo. They can decide who will win, and they decided to ride for themselves.

I find it weak that he just accepts this after everything he has done.

 

[GroupDK]

No doubt it will mess things up at Jumbo Visma.
Both Roglic & Vingegaard went to Vuelta as captain and both are clearly stronger than Sepp Kuss.(the whole world can see that)

Vingegaard would be almost 3min ahead of Kuss in GC if it wasn't for that group breakaway in the early first-week stage (S6+3:02min)
He literally got an unreal chance to land the double WITH the Tour de France, which would be quite an achievement for Jonas and Jumbo Visma (extremely tricky combo), and Jonas goal for even coming here, and it is quite clear that he does seem like the strongest rider and just cruising on an ideal stage like today..
Roglic went to Vuelta to land the double with the Giro.

Kuss is being dropped day after day, by his two stronger captains, Sepp's job here' is as a helper to help his two captain/leaders, and what he is being paid handsomely for, while Roglic and Vingegaard's job is to win, and why they are captains and it's not like Kuss have shown a form that he is actually stronger than them, quite the contrary... when he tried, like yesterday & today.. he had to surrender.

Not a fan of stronger captains gifting 3-week grand tours to helping teammates, because it's their birthday or they are so-called "nice fellows"...
would outwater these two secondary Grand Tours in Spain & Italia' even more in the mainstream media, where it usually doesn't get much focus..

Profound situation both Roglic and Vingegaard find themself in, and they will likely think twice before letting "the mountain help". gain numerous minutes on a group breakaway in the first week, when it screws up, the whole structure & planning and it suddenly ain't your form that is the reference factor.

This is gonna raise some eyebrows at Jumbo Visma... is Vuelta gonna be gifted to a great teammate, or should the strongest rider win.
Its sport, strongest rider for the win.
Maybe Jonas can make some acting tomorrow and fake "lack of form".. so Sepp's win is more legit. (hmm, right move for a teammate, fake it for the world, to give the impression of something that actually aint the case)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Well, what's he meant to do? If he puts his foot down and says, "no, this is BS, you guys should ride for me", what does he do if Jonas or Primož just say "no"? They each have their goals. Jonas wants to win back to back GTs and set himself up to join the elite club of all GT winners if he has a go at a Giro in future; Rogla wants to equal the record for Vuelta wins and have a chance of going after a record breaker - plus Rogla is 34 years old next month and maybe only has the one big money contract left to sign so wants to maximise his value. Sepp has shown weakness in the last couple of stages that tell both of those guys that that win is there to get without jeopardising the Jumbo 1-2-3.

I mean, what card does Sepp hold? "I won't ride for either of you in future"? Well, the team still has Benoot, Gesink, Kelderman, Valter, van Aert, Kruijswijk and Foss right now, plus they have Matteo Jorgenson coming. Sepp might be the strongest domestique, but it's not like they will lack if he decides he won't ride as a helper in future, and as a leader he would never be afforded the freedom to gain time unchecked that he was given in this Vuelta again.

If, say, Jonas Vingegaard turns round to Jumbo-Visma DSes and says he'll walk if they don't give him the freedom to attack, I don't see even Addy Engels being stupid enough to say "no, Jonas, you can leave if you're going to be selfish, what Sepp says goes" to the winner of the Tour de France and the strongest rider in the race right now. And if they did, I don't see him willingly sitting in with a team he's on the outs with to support the very plan that he threatened to leave over.

Note I'm not suggesting that either Sepp or Jonas would act like that - just that if they did, Jonas is the one that holds the cards.

 

[jmdirt]

Kuss would never have been in this situation if it weren't for his team, something the haters seem to forget. They allowed him to go in the break, and they worked for him to make the break stick. They don't owe him anything. If he manages to make the Vuelta podium, that's enough of a gift for a super domestique. You don't give away a GT win. Come on people. Kuss seems to know this, the number of his fans that haven't reached this level of maturity is quite worrying.

I mean, take a look at Jumbo's social media... from the reactions, it's like Vingegaard shot him in the face or something.

Yes, sir, thank you for the lecture.

 

[Extinction]

He worked his ass off for those guys for multiple years. Because he rode brilliantly he is now the leader in a GC, something that will be hard to replicate every again (his words). Without him Roglic would have 2 GT's less on his palmares (Vuelta couple of years ago and this years Giro). He's an amazing domestique and now found him in the position to win this Vuelta. I find it weak that for some reason you accept that Vingegaard/Roglic ride you out of that jersey and that win. If Kuss wouldn't finish on the podium, sure, that's fair that they would take over. But that isn't the case. The podium will be only Jumbo. They can decide who will win, and they decided to ride for themselves.

I find it weak that he just accepts this after everything he has done.

To the contrary, I think this shows Kuss's strength, who will die to win, but with his legs, not a table scratch decision. It would be different, were Rog and Vingo further down and forced into a domestique role. Being so close it's right for the Vuelta that they fight it out. It would be a disservice to the race otherwise. It's harsh, but such is the competition of sport. Jumbo is in the rare condition to have such a luxury. And I Hope Kuss wins! It's the unfortunate situation of a team that has gotten too strong. Now that's something to debate over.

 

[Extinction]

Well, what's he meant to do? If he puts his foot down and says, "no, this is BS, you guys should ride for me", what does he do if Jonas or Primož just say "no"? They each have their goals. Jonas wants to win back to back GTs and set himself up to join the elite club of all GT winners if he has a go at a Giro in future; Rogla wants to equal the record for Vuelta wins and have a chance of going after a record breaker - plus Rogla is 34 years old next month and maybe only has the one big money contract left to sign so wants to maximise his value. Sepp has shown weakness in the last couple of stages that tell both of those guys that that win is there to get without jeopardising the Jumbo 1-2-3.

I mean, what card does Sepp hold? "I won't ride for either of you in future"? Well, the team still has Benoot, Gesink, Kelderman, Valter, van Aert, Kruijswijk and Foss right now, plus they have Matteo Jorgenson coming. Sepp might be the strongest domestique, but it's not like they will lack if he decides he won't ride as a helper in future, and as a leader he would never be afforded the freedom to gain time unchecked that he was given in this Vuelta again.

If, say, Jonas Vingegaard turns round to Jumbo-Visma DSes and says he'll walk if they don't give him the freedom to attack, I don't see even Addy Engels being stupid enough to say "no, Jonas, you can leave if you're going to be selfish, what Sepp says goes" to the winner of the Tour de France and the strongest rider in the race right now. And if they did, I don't see him willingly sitting in with a team he's on the outs with to support the very plan that he threatened to leave over.

Note I'm not suggesting that either Sepp or Jonas would act like that - just that if they did, Jonas is the one that holds the cards.

Fortunately I don't think this is the psycho dynamic at Jumbo-Visma right now. Kuss is savy enough to realize he's been given his chance, under propitious circumstances that, after which, he has proven how good he is. But gifting a race is simply unbefitting of that and unworthy of the Vuelta. They are in a position to allow the three to let the best man win, whilst still monopolizing the podium. And so it must be played out accordingly, with no remorse or acrimony. Going forward in the team, it must be that way.

 

[joe_papp]

...But this way you don’t attack your teammate and take the jersey from your super domestique who helped win you other GT’s...

Yeah, too late for that. They've literally attacked their GC-leading super-domestique two days in a row lol. Great look for JV management, btw.

 

[Red Rick]

Well, what's he meant to do? If he puts his foot down and says, "no, this is BS, you guys should ride for me", what does he do if Jonas or Primož just say "no"? They each have their goals. Jonas wants to win back to back GTs and set himself up to join the elite club of all GT winners if he has a go at a Giro in future; Rogla wants to equal the record for Vuelta wins and have a chance of going after a record breaker - plus Rogla is 34 years old next month and maybe only has the one big money contract left to sign so wants to maximise his value. Sepp has shown weakness in the last couple of stages that tell both of those guys that that win is there to get without jeopardising the Jumbo 1-2-3.

I mean, what card does Sepp hold? "I won't ride for either of you in future"? Well, the team still has Benoot, Gesink, Kelderman, Valter, van Aert, Kruijswijk and Foss right now, plus they have Matteo Jorgenson coming. Sepp might be the strongest domestique, but it's not like they will lack if he decides he won't ride as a helper in future, and as a leader he would never be afforded the freedom to gain time unchecked that he was given in this Vuelta again.

If, say, Jonas Vingegaard turns round to Jumbo-Visma DSes and says he'll walk if they don't give him the freedom to attack, I don't see even Addy Engels being stupid enough to say "no, Jonas, you can leave if you're going to be selfish, what Sepp says goes" to the winner of the Tour de France and the strongest rider in the race right now. And if they did, I don't see him willingly sitting in with a team he's on the outs with to support the very plan that he threatened to leave over.

Note I'm not suggesting that either Sepp or Jonas would act like that - just that if they did, Jonas is the one that holds the cards.

After the Tourmalet, where they secured 1-2-3, there was basically no need for Jumbo to do anything but maybe go for some stages with the uphill sprints or very late attacks.

Instead they allowed Vingegaard to attack early again and Kuss and Roglic weren't allowed to chase.