Teams & Riders Sepp Kuss is the next Sepp Kuss thread

[RedheadDane]

He might not have been the strongest in the race, but he was strong enough.
He got the jersey - perhaps on a "cheap" basis - and then he was able to defend it for several days, until Jumbo decided to actually ride for him.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Don't blame the winning team, blame the other teams who didn't get their sht together in the GT this year.

This was what we saw in 2012 though.

"Oh, it's just March, the domination is just because nobody else is in form yet"
"Oh, it's just April, the domination is just because everybody's focusing on the classics, not stage races"
"Oh, it's just May, the domination is just because everybody's on a form down cycle, it'll be different come July"
"Oh, it's just June, these are preparation races, the domination is just because everybody's preparing for July"
"Oh, it's July, the domination is because everybody else got their preparation wrong"

At some point you've just got to call a spade a spade and say, for whatever reason, one team is significantly better than the rest and is running roughshod over everybody else, destroying competition and meaning that the only intrigue left is intra-team.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Don‘t know why I should like a guy who can ride like this in his 3rd GT. Seriously, what has he done, shown that he can win races? What‘s that got to do with liking someone?

He let Rogla sit in the front seat of the car. He's too good for this world.

 

[Valv.Piti]

As much as Jumbo is dominating the sport, we still have riders like Pogacar, Evenepoel and Van der Poel who on their day is absolutely unbeatable. Pogacar was the best rider in the spring by a landslide, Van der Poel has 2 monuments + worlds and Remco is just Remco, dominating racing when he's on form with several big victories to show this year as well.

So I can't get too mad, even though this type of domination in a single GT is unheard of and frankly is totally absurd. But for all the talk about strangling cycling etc., these three riders mentioned above can hold their own and dominate the whole Jumbo-squad if its clicking.

 

[jmdirt]

This was what we saw in 2012 though.

"Oh, it's just March, the domination is just because nobody else is in form yet"
"Oh, it's just April, the domination is just because everybody's focusing on the classics, not stage races"
"Oh, it's just May, the domination is just because everybody's on a form down cycle, it'll be different come July"
"Oh, it's just June, these are preparation races, the domination is just because everybody's preparing for July"
"Oh, it's July, the domination is because everybody else got their preparation wrong"

At some point you've just got to call a spade a spade and say, for whatever reason, one team is significantly better than the rest and is running roughshod over everybody else, destroying competition and meaning that the only intrigue left is intra-team.

So, you agree with me then?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So, you agree with me then?

There's two sides to it. In 2012 people basically made excuses for Sky's dominating the whole calendar that it would be different in July, and then in July it was that everybody, the whole péloton, to a man, got preparation wrong so Sky weren't doing anything out of the ordinary.

Others have been weak and have also on a number of occasions raced pretty stupidly playing into Jumbo's hands. But at the same time, that's only part of the story. I simply don't buy that the only reason Jumbo are winning things are because other teams have botched their race preparation... for every race... all season.

 

[TrekCyclist]

Its a bit like a football team that is 3 - 0 up, and lets somebody take the penalty who is not the strongest scorer but a nice guy. Like the left-back. Or the goalie.
Some will say its disrespectful, some will say its a nice way of saying thank you.

 

[roundabout]

Don't blame the winning team, blame the other teams who didn't get their sht together in the GT this year.

It's difficult to blame the others in the Vuelta when nominal #3 on Jumbo is almost on the level of #1/#2 despite in theory having the least optimal preparation

 

[Extinction]

It debases the race when the strongest two aren't allowed to attack. Poor Vuelta . And this is the real problem with the monopoly of budgets. It's the victory of capital over the human aspect of sport.

 

[theyoungest]

It debases the race when the strongest two aren't allowed to attack. Poor Vuelta . And this is the real problem with the monopoly of budgets.

For the umpteenth time, it's not a budget thing. Ineos and UAE are both significantly richer. It's how you use these budgets.

 

[Extinction]

For the umpteenth time, it's not a budget thing. Ineos and UAE are both significantly richer. It's how you use these budgets.

For the umpteenth time, we are talking about an exclusive club that has increasingly determined results, because they can afford it.

 

[theyoungest]

As much as Jumbo is dominating the sport, we still have riders like Pogacar, Evenepoel and Van der Poel who on their day is absolutely unbeatable. Pogacar was the best rider in the spring by a landslide, Van der Poel has 2 monuments + worlds and Remco is just Remco, dominating racing when he's on form with several big victories to show this year as well.

So I can't get too mad, even though this type of domination in a single GT is unheard of and frankly is totally absurd. But for all the talk about strangling cycling etc., these three riders mentioned above can hold their own and dominate the whole Jumbo-squad if its clicking.

Jumbo are actually a bit like prime Team Sky in the sense that in one day races, they can't dominate, or only dominate to a certain extent. There you have Pogacar and Van der Poel who are just better and can drop every Jumbo rider at will. The only Jumbo rider who is clearly the best at what he does is Vingegaard... Pogi fans will disagree but to me it's pretty clear that Vingegaard is just the best Grand Tour rider in the world.

 

[theyoungest]

For the umpteenth time, we are talking about an exclusive club that has increasingly determined results, because they can afford it.

But that's not the reason why Jumbo became so good. The opposite actually, they had to be smart because they had one of the smallest budgets of the Worldtour. Kuss, Vingegaard, Roglic... none of them were signed for big money. Vingegaard still doesn't make nearly as much as Pogacar does, for instance.

 

[Extinction]

But that's not the reason why Jumbo became so good. The opposite actually, they had to be smart because they had one of the smallest budgets of the Worldtour. Kuss, Vingegaard, Roglic... none of them were signed for big money. Vingegaard still doesn't make nearly as much as Pogacar does, for instance.

I get that, but they are unbelievably good. So much so that I doubt they have a - 40 million euro budget. And that's what it's all about.

 

[roundabout]

But that's not the reason why Jumbo became so good. The opposite actually, they had to be smart because they had one of the smallest budgets of the Worldtour. Kuss, Vingegaard, Roglic... none of them were signed for big money. Vingegaard still doesn't make nearly as much as Pogacar does, for instance.

I think you're overdoing it a bit with one of the smallest budgets line.

They have 3 of the top 10 riders in the World.

Other than the 3 main riders, since 2020 they signed Dumoulin/Benoot/Laporte/van Baarle/Kelderman who were leaders/major parts of teams that they departed from

I think it's rather unlikely that this would be possible if the budget was a small as you are hinting at.

 

[theyoungest]

I think you're overdoing it a bit with one of the smallest budgets line.

They have 3 of the top 10 riders in the World.

Other than the 3 main riders, since 2020 they signed Dumoulin/Benoot/Laporte/van Baarle/Kelderman who were leaders/major parts of teams that they departed from

I think it's rather unlikely that this would be possible if the budget was a small as you are hinting at.

I'm not saying that their budget is super small right now (still not nearly as much as Ineos though) but that the constant pointing at the budget as the reason of their dominance is just wrong. It's not the reason. Like I said, probably the opposite. They've learned to make use of their budget. Back in Rabobank days they had all the money in the world but not the team setup that they have now (and mostly different personnel as well, of course).

 

[Oldermanish]

He let Rogla sit in the front seat of the car. He's too good for this world.

Your world must be very small. At least you've got the: President and Dictator-for-life of Club G.R.O.S.S. (Get Rid Of Sepp KusS) thing going for you. Do you have any other members?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Your world must be very small. At least you've got the: President and Dictator-for-life of Club G.R.O.S.S. (Get Rid Of Sepp KusS) thing going for you. Do you have any other members?

Yes, my stuffed tiger. Kinda disappointing I have to explain the reference there but since I whiffed on the joke comparing me to Bobcat Goldthwait yesterday, I guess I can be a bit more forgiving on that front.

 

[Oldermanish]

It debases the race when the strongest two aren't allowed to attack. Poor Vuelta . And this is the real problem with the monopoly of budgets. It's the victory of capital over the human aspect of sport.

The problem is clearly with the team road management for the Vuelta. If Kuss took time and only one other JV guy made it to the podium in support would that have been more palatable?
This race put an end to JV loading up like this for the future. Of course you're free to unload on QS when they bring an overwhelmingly stronger team to a single day race.

 

[Oldermanish]

Yes, my stuffed tiger. Kinda disappointing I have to explain the reference there but since I whiffed on the joke comparing me to Bobcat Goldthwait yesterday, I guess I can be a bit more forgiving on that front.

Best cartoonist and humorist ever. Mixture of Groucho Marx and Mark Twain.

 

[Netserk]

Yes, my stuffed tiger. Kinda disappointing I have to explain the reference there but since I whiffed on the joke comparing me to Bobcat Goldthwait yesterday, I guess I can be a bit more forgiving on that front.

Should have been "President and Supreme Dictator-for-life of Club G.R.O.S.S. (Get Rid Of Sepp KusS)" then?

 

[jmdirt]

There's two sides to it. In 2012 people basically made excuses for Sky's dominating the whole calendar that it would be different in July, and then in July it was that everybody, the whole péloton, to a man, got preparation wrong so Sky weren't doing anything out of the ordinary.

Others have been weak and have also on a number of occasions raced pretty stupidly playing into Jumbo's hands. But at the same time, that's only part of the story. I simply don't buy that the only reason Jumbo are winning things are because other teams have botched their race preparation... for every race... all season.

"Botched" My point is that people are yelling at JV for being too good. My assertion is that we should be yelling at other teams for not being good enough.

Should NFL fans be mad at KC for being the best team over the last five years? I'm disgusted with the teams who suck year in and year out.

 

[jmdirt]

It's difficult to blame the others in the Vuelta when nominal #3 on Jumbo is almost on the level of #1/#2 despite in theory having the least optimal preparation

I blame them for not getting the best riders, and preparing them and the team (riders, staff...) to be the best.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The problem is clearly with the team road management for the Vuelta. If Kuss took time and only one other JV guy made it to the podium in support would that have been more palatable?
This race put an end to JV loading up like this for the future. Of course you're free to unload on QS when they bring an overwhelmingly stronger team to a single day race.

I think the problem is that they didn't do one or the other until too late on. Had they decided they were riding for Sepp from earlier on the proviso that "we let the road decide, and because he's in the red jersey he gets priority", then it probably wouldn't have been met with the derision it has.

Had they gone full on 'let them race, we've got the podium locked up, let them duke it out on the road', then while it might have upset certain vocal portions of the twitterverse (being stirred up by members of the Anglophone cycling media), whoever won the race would be clearly the best rider in the race.

As it is, however, they've kind of half-assed it, so it's just ended up exposing that at least Vingegaard, if not also Roglič could have passed Kuss easily if they hadn't had their wings clipped, while simultaneously delivering an unsatisfactorily tame racing conclusion. They tempted us with some fratricidal battles, only to swerve us Fingerpoke Of Doom style into a lame love-in.

It's quite remarkable really, the team has somehow managed to completely dominate the race, taking five mountain stages across the three riders and locking out the podium, and somehow come out of this with a scenario where everybody looks weak in some way. Kuss looks like a lame duck champion who could easily have been passed by his teammates; Vingegaard and Roglič look like poor team players who were neither loyal enough to support their teammate nor strong enough to take command, and the team management look weak either way because either they told the team to ride for Kuss and were too weak to control their riders on the road, or they told the team to fight it out on the road and then flip-flopped in the face of negative comments on social media.

 

[Netserk]

"Botched" My point is that people are yelling at JV for being too good. My assertion is that we should be yelling at other teams for not being good enough.

No one should have yelled at Armstrong, but at Ullrich instead?