i haven't got time to go through the whole thread, at the minute is it his word against hers? any other witnesses to the alleged incident?
Re: wooo.oh
I had thought that Varnish had argued that she was dropped because she was a toxic malcontent, sorry, for publicly criticising British Cycling's management, and Sutton and British Cycling say she was dropped on performance grounds, also pointing out that she had never previously raised 'sexism' as being an issue on the team.
Would Sutton deserve to be sacked if he really did drop her for publicly criticising British Cycling management, something that is common in the corporate world, and which would surely have been done - if it was - with the blessing of British Cycling? Or does he only deserve to be sacked if he was guilty of 'sexism' - the 'crime' for which no punishment is too great - even if this had nothing to with her being dropped?
What has his alleged 'sexism' got to do with her been dropped from the team?thehog said:
I had thought that Varnish had argued that she was dropped because she was a toxic malcontent, sorry, for publicly criticising British Cycling's management, and Sutton and British Cycling say she was dropped on performance grounds, also pointing out that she had never previously raised 'sexism' as being an issue on the team.
Would Sutton deserve to be sacked if he really did drop her for publicly criticising British Cycling management, something that is common in the corporate world, and which would surely have been done - if it was - with the blessing of British Cycling? Or does he only deserve to be sacked if he was guilty of 'sexism' - the 'crime' for which no punishment is too great - even if this had nothing to with her being dropped?
I have been looking through the reports relating to the Sutton - Varnish spat, and have not bee able to find any claim that Sutton's supposed 'sexism' had any bearing on her losing her place on the team. In fact it looks as though Varnish has only brought this issue up because she knows just how the mob tends to run with such accusations and that it could cause a lot of damage to Sutton.
That leaves the accusation that she lost her place for being critical of British Cycling's management. Again, this does seem plausible, and in a corporate environment would be pretty much mandatory, but there is no actual evidence that this was the reason she was dropped.
OK, so how about Sutton's claims that she was dropped on performance grounds? In this case there is a lot of evidence supporting what he says. For example, she set her best time in the team sprint four years ago, she qualified in 17th place in the match sprint in London, she was consistently beaten by the French squad in the qualification events, and so on.
Also, were Sutton's 'bum' comments actually sexist? Her own original report of what he said suggests not.
I see no 'sexism' there, and it seems neither did Varnish, who clearly took it to mean that Sutton was just suggesting that her stronger musculature meant that she was more suited to the lead-out position. This is nothing like the suggestion that she was simply told that her 'bum was too big', with the implication been that she needed to lose weight or some such. It would be interesting to know where this 'sexist' spin on this came from, Varnish or the papers themselves, which would be pretty much the norm for a rag such as the Daily Mail. Probably both.
That leaves the accusation that she lost her place for being critical of British Cycling's management. Again, this does seem plausible, and in a corporate environment would be pretty much mandatory, but there is no actual evidence that this was the reason she was dropped.
OK, so how about Sutton's claims that she was dropped on performance grounds? In this case there is a lot of evidence supporting what he says. For example, she set her best time in the team sprint four years ago, she qualified in 17th place in the match sprint in London, she was consistently beaten by the French squad in the qualification events, and so on.
Also, were Sutton's 'bum' comments actually sexist? Her own original report of what he said suggests not.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/04/22/jess-varnish-hits-out-at-british-cycling-chief-after-being-dropp/
I see no 'sexism' there, and it seems neither did Varnish, who clearly took it to mean that Sutton was just suggesting that her stronger musculature meant that she was more suited to the lead-out position. This is nothing like the suggestion that she was simply told that her 'bum was too big', with the implication been that she needed to lose weight or some such. It would be interesting to know where this 'sexist' spin on this came from, Varnish or the papers themselves, which would be pretty much the norm for a rag such as the Daily Mail. Probably both.
- May 15, 2011
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Re: wooo.oh
2.
a. Informal A person regarded as being piglike, greedy, or disgusting.
b. Derogatory Slang A police officer.
c. Slang A member of the social or political establishment, especially one holding sexist or racist views.
You'd rather I call him a sexist pig?
Pigebandit said:
2.
a. Informal A person regarded as being piglike, greedy, or disgusting.
b. Derogatory Slang A police officer.
c. Slang A member of the social or political establishment, especially one holding sexist or racist views.
You'd rather I call him a sexist pig?
- Mar 3, 2013
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I still have no idea whether he said it and, if he did, in what context.
There's a great temptation to criticise both Shane Sutton and his accuser, or one or the other. It's interesting to see Clinic members take sides. But, as Benotti once posted in response to me, the Clinic is not a popularity contest. So perhaps one should not hold the protagonists to a higher standard of thought, respect and action than ourselves. Though it would, I suppose, lead to a dull old time.
There's a great temptation to criticise both Shane Sutton and his accuser, or one or the other. It's interesting to see Clinic members take sides. But, as Benotti once posted in response to me, the Clinic is not a popularity contest. So perhaps one should not hold the protagonists to a higher standard of thought, respect and action than ourselves. Though it would, I suppose, lead to a dull old time.
- Aug 31, 2012
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I think there are valid points in robert's outpouring of frustration with modern feminism, triggered by something as innocent as what Sutton may or may not have said and our reaction to it, but this is hardly the appropriate thread to discuss it
Can't understand why this thread is in the Clinic. It has almost zero relevance to doping and surely belongs where there would be a much wider involvement in what is really a general cycling discussion, or even a track discussion.
Re:
It's here because it started out as an attempt to portray Sutton as a doper, and possibly a facilitator of doping at Sky and BC. It has only recently moved on to arguing that he is a 'sexist'...Farcanal said:
http://www.jessicavarnish.com/news/1761/statement-from-jess-varnish
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/04/25/jess-varnish-is-right--there-is-sexism-at-the-top-of-british-cyc/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-3558325/Shane-Sutton-divides-opinion-Wendy-Houvenaghel-calling-narcissistic-little-bully-winner.html
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/25/nicole-cooke-cycling-sexism-jess-varnish-shane-sutton
Some interesting stuff from the last 24hrs. (The last one is already in the Cookson thread I know, but it's rather good).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/04/25/jess-varnish-is-right--there-is-sexism-at-the-top-of-british-cyc/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-3558325/Shane-Sutton-divides-opinion-Wendy-Houvenaghel-calling-narcissistic-little-bully-winner.html
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/25/nicole-cooke-cycling-sexism-jess-varnish-shane-sutton
Some interesting stuff from the last 24hrs. (The last one is already in the Cookson thread I know, but it's rather good).
- Jun 14, 2010
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Re:
Hahahaha.
In the sky threads you argue that there is no evidence against froome or Wiggins because no one has seen them dope, like they did with armstrong
So here we have Sutton and we have riders who did see him dope and are willing to say so.
But surprise surprise, apparently even that isn't enough, afterall
And the goalposts keep moving.
ebandit said:
Hahahaha.
In the sky threads you argue that there is no evidence against froome or Wiggins because no one has seen them dope, like they did with armstrong
So here we have Sutton and we have riders who did see him dope and are willing to say so.
But surprise surprise, apparently even that isn't enough, afterall
And the goalposts keep moving.
For some of the others, a case of 'vengeance is a dish best served cold', perhaps.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-3558325/Shane-Sutton-divides-opinion-Wendy-Houvenaghel-calling-narcissistic-little-bully-winner.html
- Jun 14, 2010
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The Carrot said:
Beautiful.
Narcissistic bully indeed.
Good point from vp
But I thought brailsfords bc programme was a utopia?
Also people in the comments pointing out that the only riders supporting Sutton are those that will be left out of the Olympics if they don't.
Re: Re:
Pity he doesn't seem to be as skilled at handling temperamental professional sports women* who have been raised to see 'sexism' everywhere they look.
*(Vicky P and her self-harming issues, for example.)
Sutton was a doper? As a pro cyclist, yes he probably was!The Hitch said:
Pity he doesn't seem to be as skilled at handling temperamental professional sports women* who have been raised to see 'sexism' everywhere they look.
*(Vicky P and her self-harming issues, for example.)
Re: Re:
Seems Nicole Cooke would agree: "Athletes with their Olympic dreams on the line are never going to be the source of information on ill treatment by those whose responsibility it is to select or administrate."
The Hitch said:
Seems Nicole Cooke would agree: "Athletes with their Olympic dreams on the line are never going to be the source of information on ill treatment by those whose responsibility it is to select or administrate."
- Feb 16, 2010
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Girl power:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/36138046
"I know exactly how miserable they made me," two-time Olympic gold medallist Pendleton told the Daily Telegraph.
Cooke, the 2008 Olympic road race champion, told the Guardian: "I have my own experiences of Shane and sympathise with Jess. "Speak out and your dreams will be destroyed and years of hard work wasted. Or put up with it and hope." "I spoke out from the age of 19 and I know what happens."
http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/36138046
"I know exactly how miserable they made me," two-time Olympic gold medallist Pendleton told the Daily Telegraph.
Cooke, the 2008 Olympic road race champion, told the Guardian: "I have my own experiences of Shane and sympathise with Jess. "Speak out and your dreams will be destroyed and years of hard work wasted. Or put up with it and hope." "I spoke out from the age of 19 and I know what happens."
- Jul 24, 2009
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I'd actually like to hear what Ruth says about all this. She is a woman
that holds an important position at British Cycling, and she is also an
Aussie, so maybe she can see both "sides".
She is certainly acquainted with both "parties" but is still somewhat
new in the British camp after many years and a couple of Olympics
with the Aussies. I'd love to have a chat with her.
that holds an important position at British Cycling, and she is also an
Aussie, so maybe she can see both "sides".
She is certainly acquainted with both "parties" but is still somewhat
new in the British camp after many years and a couple of Olympics
with the Aussies. I'd love to have a chat with her.
everytime i see this issue (sexism,racism) nothing ever changes because ppl in question are bad at connecting dots and the dialogue gets derailed to arguing about unimportant issues and ad hominem attacks
varnish wasnt kicked because of sexism,she was kicked because she is not good enough
shady mccoy wasnt traded to buffalo because chip kelly is a racist,he was traded because chip kelly is a control freak
do not connect what doesnt belong together,fight those issues separately maybe eventually people will start listen to you
varnish wasnt kicked because of sexism,she was kicked because she is not good enough
shady mccoy wasnt traded to buffalo because chip kelly is a racist,he was traded because chip kelly is a control freak
do not connect what doesnt belong together,fight those issues separately maybe eventually people will start listen to you
- Aug 31, 2012
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But no one is saying Varnish was kicked because of sexism. She was kicked because she isn't good enough and because she dared to speak up against Sir Shane and other British Cycling luminaries.
She's getting revenge now by revealing that Sutton said sexist things. Unfortunately for Sutton, others have now come forward to corroborate that BC has a sexism problem.
She's getting revenge now by revealing that Sutton said sexist things. Unfortunately for Sutton, others have now come forward to corroborate that BC has a sexism problem.
Re:
No one is saying Varnish was kicked because of sexism. She was kicked because she isn't good enough and because she dared to speak up against Sir Shane and other British Cycling luminaries.
She's getting revenge now by revealing that Sutton said things that, in the most broadly defined sense of the word could be construed as being 'sexist'. Unfortunately for Sutton, others have now come forward who have the same views as to what constitutes 'sexism' and once that accusation is made guilt is assumed, no defense is possible and the mob will only be satisfied with the destruction of the individual involved.
Close, but I'd put it this way...SeriousSam said:
No one is saying Varnish was kicked because of sexism. She was kicked because she isn't good enough and because she dared to speak up against Sir Shane and other British Cycling luminaries.
She's getting revenge now by revealing that Sutton said things that, in the most broadly defined sense of the word could be construed as being 'sexist'. Unfortunately for Sutton, others have now come forward who have the same views as to what constitutes 'sexism' and once that accusation is made guilt is assumed, no defense is possible and the mob will only be satisfied with the destruction of the individual involved.
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