should riders be controlled at 3 am ?

[Escarabajo]

My answer is no.

There have to be better ways to fight doping than disrupt the precious sleep.

Do what they do in the Baby Giro. Why not.

 

[180mmCrank]

It will never happen and it wouldn't prevent those that want to cheat from cheating. This is an ethical issue for (the culture of) the sport - it will never be solved by increasing the amount of monitoring in this way.

I am quite amazed by the number of people that think this is appropriate even from a basic humanitarian perspective. If we had a poll that called for 24/7 surveillance or some kind of isollation strategy - how many people would vote in favor?

What do people think all of this feels like to an athlete - a clean athlete? I had to p!ss in bottle 2 or 3 times a year for ten years (there was less testing back then) - I resented it every time. Even though I knew it was for the greater good of the sport - I still hated having some guy stand over me as I peed in a pot. I might feel differenly now but I know how I felt then.

 

[straydog]

It will never happen and it wouldn't prevent those that want to cheat from cheating. This is an ethical issue for (the culture of) the sport - it will never be solved by increasing the amount of monitoring in this way.

I am quite amazed by the number of people that think this is appropriate even from a basic humanitarian perspective. If we had a poll that called for 24/7 surveillance or some kind of isollation strategy - how many people would vote in favor?

What do people think all of this feels like to an athlete - a clean athlete? I had to p!ss in bottle 2 or 3 times a year for ten years (there was less testing back then) - I resented it every time. Even though I knew it was for the greater good of the sport - I still hated having some guy stand over me as I peed in a pot. I might feel differenly now but I know how I felt then.

Ok. I find it kind of ironic that as a supposed "doping apologist" I am one of the few who is arguing for this protocol.

180mm, 15 years ago people balked at the whereabouts system being proposed. They considered it a violation of their human rights. Losing an hours sleep, if it is carried out in a fair and an even handed manner, in my opinion is no greater an invasion. Being an elite athlete does unfortunately come with down sides and responsibilities.

Maybe I am alone in this but I have never felt any great invasion in being asked to pee in a pot, both when I was younger and more recently as an age grouper in Triathlon. The attitude of some testers maybe leaves a bit to be desired, but in principal I have never had a problem with it.
I have felt it unnecessary, however, when in other aspects of working life I have been required to produce samples for drug and alcohol analysis. But if I am honest, that probably had more to do with me feeling that my "right" to drink or take drugs was being curtailed.

Being for "the greater good of the sport", if it is a viable method of tightening the net on PED users, is all that should matter to those who seek a cleaner sport. Both athletes and fans.

 

[straydog]

@straydog
i understand where you’re coming from and i actually realise wada limitations in detecting short-lived hormones. consider me well informed. for example, (and this is a publicly available information) wada labs are currently authorized to detect hgh with no less than 3 (!) different methods with 3 different detection windows. when targeted with proper intelligence and diligence, one of the methods should at least flag the cheater without waking him up.

so my point was that the wada proposed shifting of the burden exclusively on riders should be shared by the folks in the science community and those who decide on random visits. improved tests are certainly possible with investment. the hgh test was an example. if some slip through, so be it. it's called an acceptable level of false negatives. Whilst i’m strongly anti-doping, i believe that ‘zero tolerance’ is a load of political bs. it creates some unrealistic expectation and draconian if not idiotic measures to abuse some in order to cover up others negligence or mismanagement.

My apologies, I didn't consider you informed as you had posted the question "why not make the detection window longer?"....just as in a previous thread you had appeared to show some confusion as to the definition of metabolic rate (which refers to energy expenditure usually in regard to calorific consumption)....and also appeared confused as to what the term "micro" dosing meant....after you had said it was impossible to micro dose clenbuterol as it's prescribed dosage was measured in micrograms. Apologies if I misunderstood.

As for the HGH tests, well HGH isn't cycled at any time during a GT. You will never catch any rider at 3am or any other time during a tour with any HGH test, because they simply won't be using it then. And actually if you ever do want to catch a rider using HGH, then the best bet is to actually test him in the first hour after he has fallen asleep when his HGH production will peak. "Some" aren't slipping through the net when it comes to HGH at present. ALL are.

I disagree that the onus is being placed on the riders. And if it was, so what? At present they have the whereabouts system, with all it's inbuilt flaws, the bio passport, with all of it's inbuilt warnings to any well informed PED user. And what else? So called random testing?

PED users have a cornucopia of choices from the pharmaceutical goody tray, including drugs still in development for human use, that testers won't even have considered will be "abused". If you are serious about cleaner cycling, you have to to endorse loading the dice somewhat back in their favour.

 

[luckyboy]

Maybe this would've worked in the 90s when all the riders had to get up in the middle of the night anyway.

Would 1am be any more acceptable? Or an hour earlier in the morning/5am?

 

[python]

"why not make the detection window longer?"....

my apologies if i did not notice previously how confused you are.
this thread is about riders getting up early during the testing. if you're unable to see that there are other ways, including the test improvements, your purpose seems to be argumentative just for the sake of it. as to the clen not only you confused about dosages, but also appear uninformed about its use for performance enhancing. i will know better next time, before i take you seriously.

 

[straydog]

my apologies if i did not notice previously how confused you are.
this thread is about riders getting up early during the testing. if you're unable to see that there are other ways, including the test improvements, your purpose seems to be argumentative just for the sake of it. as to the clen not only you confused about dosages, but also appear uninformed about it of use for performance enhancing. i will know better next time, before i take you seriously.

Wow....your insight and proof into my confusion is very compelling. And it is very interesting how many of my points you actually addressed rather than just a vague and frankly, borderline "special", attempt at whitewashing my post as "confused".

This thread isn't "about riders getting up early during testing", it is labelled "should riders be controlled at 3 am?"....Dude you started it! How did you get confused by your own thread?

I am fully aware there are other ways, I just happen to believe that a very compelling method and hindrance would be 3am testing. And pray please tell me what in my post led you to believe I am uninformed about the use of Clenbuterol as a performance enhancing substance?

And even though I don't wish to pull your thread off topic, the reason I mentioned your previous confusion was because you had bragged you were "informed", when it was blatantly obvious to anyone who actually knows what they are talking about, that you aren't.

 

[python]

since i started this thread, i know what's it about. hopefully you voted.
now please stop taking it offtopic.

 

[tubularglue]

Wouldn't hurt to create a little internal tension and impetus within the peloton...

i don't agree with the timing (hour)
but understand the necessity

"anywhere/anytime" = transparent

 

[straydog]

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting the hour is ideal. But yes, there is a necessity.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the "bad apples" have ruined it for the good at present. If the belief and trust hadn't been so eroded by so many, suggestions like this wouldn't even be on the radar.

 

[python]

<snip>

I am quite amazed by the number of people that think this is appropriate even from a basic humanitarian perspective.

actually, the vote distribution falls about where i broadly expected it. a considerable majority don't think that night testing is a good idea. i suspect, if the voters were not anonymous, many fewer would vote 'yes'. but i don't blame anyone for a different opinion, neither did you. as in real life in general, it often takes being in the situation personally before one considers the opinion revision.

 

[Maxiton]

Along the lines of a 3 AM wake up for doping control, I'd go one further: In each grand tour choose at least one rider to be hung from the ceiling by his gonads. (The rider could be chosen based on blood passport levels or at random.) A few hours hanging will produce significant discomfort, but if properly supervised will probably not result in permanent damage. The purpose of this action is not to test for PEDs, of course, but rather to serve as a disincentive for their use.

And if the riders don't wish to agree to this . . . ordeal, shall we call it? Then perhaps they should not be racing. And if the riders want to put a permanent end to the ordeal? They should stop doping! Simple! Until they do stop, let them hang.

If they don't like it, stop the doping..

Wouldn't hurt to create a little internal tension and impetus within the peloton...

 

[Barrus]

Along the lines of a 3 AM wake up for doping control, I'd go one further: In each grand tour choose at least one rider to be hung from the ceiling by his gonads. (The rider could be chosen based on blood passport levels or at random.) A few hours hanging will produce significant discomfort, but if properly supervised will probably not result in permanent damage. The purpose of this action is not to test for PEDs, of course, but rather to serve as a disincentive for their use.

And if the riders don't wish to agree to this . . . ordeal, shall we call it? Then perhaps they should not be racing. And if the riders want to put a permanent end to the ordeal? They should stop doping! Simple! Until they do stop, let them hang.

But when will they stop with these tests? When it is proven that there is no more doping? And how will you do that? And if you follow the line of reasoning of many of the yes-voters, they should stop if people stop doping. But if they stop with the night time tests there again is no deterring effect of these night tests to which you point, which would once again ensure doping, due to which night time tests need to be reintroduced than. There will be no end to the night time tests, if it is implemented it will remain in place

In my mind there are much better ways to firstly improve the test-regime. Things such as, better tests, better protocol for the tests, make sure that the bio-pass can be prosecuted, even without the UCI consent, implement the plasticizer tests and many more things, none of which could possibly influence the outcome of a race so unfairly as night time testing could do

 

[poupou]

To avoid night testing, maybe riders could accept to stay in an hotel under full control.... riders ready to sleep let they affairs in a locker and go into their room with the minimum of cloth, no medicine, just water,... if they need something else they just have to ask them, organisations would provide them their requirement (food, any drinks,...)
Everyone entering in that area has to be controlled.
Rider who refuses to sleep there can be tested during night.

 

[hrotha]

I have no trouble admitting I voted "yes", and I already explained under which circumstances I'd say it's acceptable. Still, my position depends on something I don't know anything about: would blood tests be enough in this situation?

 

[andy1234]

To avoid night testing, maybe riders could accept to stay in an hotel under full control.... riders ready to sleep let they affairs in a locker and go into their room with the minimum of cloth, no medicine, just water,... if they need something else they just have to ask them, organisations would provide them their requirement (food, any drinks,...)
Everyone entering in that area has to be controlled.
Rider who refuses to sleep there can be tested during night.

F**k me, you would get a better standard of living if you were banged up for Rape. Do you live in the real world?
It's a SPORT, the competitors owe you nothing.
Some people are so obsessed with doping that they have lost their grip on reality....

 

[Race Radio]

JV says wake them up
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/6...(Cycling+News+&+Race+Results+|+VeloNation.com)

 

[poupou]

F**k me, you would get a better standard of living if you were banged up for Rape. Do you live in the real world?
It's a SPORT, the competitors owe you nothing.
Some people are so obsessed with doping that they have lost their grip on reality....

It's a professional sport, riders are paid because there is spectators attracting sponsors!
No spectators, no TV, no media cover and riders would get no money or just a little!
That is the reality and there is no reason for a man to fool millions of people, he has some duties.

 

[180mmCrank]

JV says wake them up
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/6...(Cycling+News+&+Race+Results+|+VeloNation.com)

Thanks for posting

Worth reading - he talks about the need for the 'threat of a late night test' but 'not all night testing' - make of that what you will.

I still don't think this is really the answer to the systemic issues in the sport.

 

[JA.Tri]

Some excellent thoughts!

+1 making sure all reasonable steps are taken before more onerous steps are implemented and IMO 3am is onerous. Maybe testing until midnight?? Delaying sleep/early arising is preferable to interrupting sleep.

IIRC, Sleep studies have demonstrated (and my limited personal experience anecdotally supports) that sleep in the week before an event is more important than the night immediately before said event. Therefore 3am (if deemed truly necessary) testing may be "ok" before a one day event.

Following above, maybe 3am testing on the morning of a rest day during a multi-day race??

FWIW.

 

[Escarabajo]

To avoid night testing, maybe riders could accept to stay in an hotel under full control.... riders ready to sleep let they affairs in a locker and go into their room with the minimum of cloth, no medicine, just water,... if they need something else they just have to ask them, organisations would provide them their requirement (food, any drinks,...)
Everyone entering in that area has to be controlled.
Rider who refuses to sleep there can be tested during night.

+1.
Just what I said. Do the same as what they do with the baby Giro. Then you don't have to worry about anything. They can sleep all they want. If somebody wants to leave the room there will be a camera watching.

Other things that can be done, that no test at 3 am in the morning can beat, are:

- UCI tipping of un-announced tests to certain riders. Without this the 3 am tests are a moot point.
- Use as many resources as you can: New plasticizer tests, real and more un-announced tests (according to the WADA report these are not as many as I thought), send more samples to the German lab, etc. There are still a lot of things that can be done before waking them up. Simply look at this year's Contador's performance. Can somebody tell me that because of the new controls with the Bio passport his performance did not drop? For next year just tell them that they will test for plasticizers and that should bring the performances another notch. I know that there always will be doping in sports but the main objective is to minimize it to the point where cleanish riders have a chance again.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[andy1234]

It's a professional sport, riders are paid because there is spectators attracting sponsors!
No spectators, no TV, no media cover and riders would get no money or just a little!
That is the reality and there is no reason for a man to fool millions of people, he has some duties.

So what? everyone who has a job is a professional, that doesn't mean that basic human rights go out of the window.
The day that other sports start implementing the same regulations, I will think again.... But they won't.

Dope testing in other sports is a joke. It doesn't seem to affect viewer figures or sponsorship though does it? Sponsors don't want clean sport, they want scandal free sport. 3 am testing won't help with that....

 

[Escarabajo]

So what? everyone who has a job is a professional, that doesn't mean that basic human rights go out of the window.
The day that other sports start implementing the same regulations, I will think again.... But they won't.

....

What basic human’s rights would be violated? They still can do anything they want within the working hours until curfew I guess. Many sports have curfew and are strict about it. But the drugs and vitamins would be controlled by the race. It is very simple. Nobody makes them race anyway. It is their choice.

Here. it is already happening.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4...-Giro-tossed-from-race-after-police-raid.aspx

La Repubblica reports that the prohibited drugs included insulin, female hormones, stimulants, pills, syringes, and butterfly needles, which are used for blood transfusions. This would be illegal under any circumstance, but it stands out even more starkly at the Baby Giro, where riders are not even allowed to take medicines of any sort including vitamins, unless expressly handed over to the race officials before the race, who then approve or forbid the use of the requested product. The goal, of course, is to push the race as far as possible from the dependence on any product, whether legal or illegal.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I would say a good night sleep is a basic human right

 

[andy1234]

What basic human’s rights would be violated? They still can do anything they want within the working hours until curfew I guess. Many sports have curfew and are strict about it. But the drugs and vitamins would be controlled by the race. It is very simple. Nobody makes them race anyway. It is their choice.

Here. it is already happening.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4...-Giro-tossed-from-race-after-police-raid.aspx

Of course nobody makes them race. Nobody makes you go to work either, but I bet it's pretty f***ing important to your family that you do!
It's a profession, not a lifestyle choice.

As I stated earlier, it's a wonder anybody wants to turn pro these days with attitudes like this.