should riders be controlled at 3 am ?

[Escarabajo]

I would say a good night sleep is a basic human right

Read the post again Dekker. I am against 3 am tests.

But they can enforce other things without violating human rights.

 

[Escarabajo]

Of course nobody makes them race. Nobody makes you go to work either, but I bet it's pretty f***ing important to your family that you do!
It's a profession, not a lifestyle choice.

As I stated earlier, it's a wonder anybody wants to turn pro these days with attitudes like this.

I still don't see what basic human right is being violated in your post.

I have to obey a lot of rules in my work place. I don't like some of them but it is a sacrifice. And I have to follow the rules too. Funny enough we have drug testing. In the last company I worked they fired someone for taking somebody else precription for headahes. He was not even an athlete. Talk about being tough. BTW, I live in USA.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

It will never happen and it wouldn't prevent those that want to cheat from cheating. This is an ethical issue for (the culture of) the sport - it will never be solved by increasing the amount of monitoring in this way.

I am quite amazed by the number of people that think this is appropriate even from a basic humanitarian perspective. If we had a poll that called for 24/7 surveillance or some kind of isollation strategy - how many people would vote in favor?

What do people think all of this feels like to an athlete - a clean athlete? I had to p!ss in bottle 2 or 3 times a year for ten years (there was less testing back then) - I resented it every time. Even though I knew it was for the greater good of the sport - I still hated having some guy stand over me as I peed in a pot. I might feel differenly now but I know how I felt then.

Wow! You and I seem to have somewhat similar histories in cycling (in regards to a decade of having to report to doping control anyway), but entirely different views...

I was a clean athlete, and always was stoked when doping control was being a pain in the *ss. It made me feel like something was being done. I even complained to my federation that testing was innadequate, and shot my mouth off in the same vein in our national media (didn't result in a great relationship with the fed).

As a clean athlete, one should welcome the imposition of having to be watched while you p*ss in a jar. Hopefully with the belief that they're not just targetting clean athletes to make the numbers look good. If public urination for the greater good left that bad of a taste in your mouth maybe you weren't enjoying the free beer at doping control enough.

There has also been a lot of commenting on the damage a disrupted sleep will have on a rider. In terms of sleep deprivation, this is clinically not true. Even NO sleep the night before competing only results in subjective feelings of under-performing - objective physiological output remains the same as if fully rested.

I think Python randomly chose the 300h time to make a point. I'm sure the testers could find a more ammenable time that still tightens the noose of the no-test window, and that's the point - shrink the window enough that it scares the h*ll out of the users, and acts as a deterent, as well as actually popping the cheaters.

The thread's full of other good ideas, many from the IO/WADA release, so I guess that's a start...

 

[WonderLance]

YES, but only the ones I dont like.

 

[patricknd]

I still don't see what basic human right is being violated in your post.

I have to obey a lot of rules in my work place. I don't like some of them but it is a sacrifice. And I have to follow the rules too. Funny enough we have drug testing. In the last company I worked they fired someone for taking somebody else precription for headahes. He was not even an athlete. Talk about being tough. BTW, I live in USA.

so how often do they come to your house, wake you from a peaceful sleep, and test you?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

so how often do they come to your house, wake you from a peaceful sleep, and test you?

If you're at a race, you're 'on the clock'. There's the difference.

 

[Escarabajo]

so how often do they come to your house, wake you from a peaceful sleep, and test you?

Please read the post again.

I am against testing at 3 am. I posted my vote no. My post is about controlling the medicines and vitamins and more monitoring on the cyclists while in the race. Read the link again.

 

[Maxiton]

Along the lines of a 3 AM wake up for doping control, I'd go one further: In each grand tour choose at least one rider to be hung from the ceiling by his gonads. (The rider could be chosen based on blood passport levels or at random.) A few hours hanging will produce significant discomfort, but if properly supervised will probably not result in permanent damage. The purpose of this action is not to test for PEDs, of course, but rather to serve as a disincentive for their use.

And if the riders don't wish to agree to this . . . ordeal, shall we call it? Then perhaps they should not be racing. And if the riders want to put a permanent end to the ordeal? They should stop doping! Simple! Until they do stop, let them hang.

I posted this to point out the absurdity of waking people up at 3 AM in the middle of a stage race. Apparently no one here thinks it's unreasonable to propose hanging riders

by their gonads in order to fight doping . . . . Someone even replied to my post as though I was serious.


People, take a step back. Put yourself in the riders' position. You're in a stage race. You're exhausted, so much so that you maybe have trouble getting to sleep. Finally you

fall into blessed, deep, restful REM sleep; and then, suddenly, you hear a clamor. What's going on? Where am I? OMG, someone's rapping at the door. Fire in the hotel?!

Someone at home died?! "Good morning. Sorry for waking you at 3 AM, but it's time for a doping control."


I can tell you, if I were that rider I'd tell them to get bent, and then I'd retire right there. I don't care what JV says. He's speaking as an owner. Let them wake him up. If

they can't find a way to detect doping without going to absurd, inhumane extremes, they need to redouble their efforts. Treating the riders without consideration, just to

ensure they aren't doping, is just the flip side of making them dope to improve their results. Same coin, different day.


And if you seriously think it's alright to do whatever to a rider, under the guise of anti-doping, you really need to take a look at yourself.

 

[Benotti69]

I can tell you, if I were that rider I'd tell them to get bent, and then I'd retire right there. I don't care what JV says. He's speaking as an owner. Let them wake him up. If they can't find a way to detect doping without going to absurd, inhumane extremes, they need to redouble their efforts. Treating the riders without consideration, just to ensure they aren't doping, is just the flip side of making them dope to improve their results.

JV also a former rider.

i suppose it would be inhumane to wake them up if the hotel is on fire as they have 220km stage up 5 HC climbs tomorrow

I still believe the riders have the power to end doping in the sport.

 

[Maxiton]

JV also a former rider.

J.V. is speaking as an owner, not a rider. He's concerned about his interests, not necessarily the riders' interest.

i suppose it would be inhumane to wake them up if the hotel is on fire as they have 220km stage up 5 HC climbs tomorrow

Don't be ridiculous. But then again why stop now.

I still believe the riders have the power to end doping in the sport.

That's exactly right. The riders, and only the riders. If they form their own union, or join a union, they can stop doping and they will stop it. There might be a few riders -

anti-social types - who are willing to jeopordize their health for the sake of a result; but the vast majority would not be, but for pressure from their handlers. No one can

stop riders from doping except other riders. If they are organized and in control of their own fates, doping is finished.

 

[poupou]

As rider what is the uncomfortable for me?

To be wake up at 3am?
Or to have to ride with blood doped riders dropping me at the first climb and reducing my cycling value? Or worst forcing me to dope too?

 

[Maxiton]

As rider what is the uncomfortable for me?

To be wake up at 3am?
Or to have to ride with blood doped riders dropping me at the first climb and reducing my cycling value? Or worst forcing me to dope too?

Fine. Then why don't we let the riders decide?

 

[Benotti69]

J.V. is speaking as an owner, not a rider. He's concerned about his interests, not necessarily the riders' interest.

Don't be ridiculous. But then again why stop now.

Considering some of the Garmin riders are team owners, David Millar is one and what's a team without its riders

That's exactly right. The riders, and only the riders. If they form their own union, or join a union, they can stop doping and they will stop it. There might be a few riders -

anti-social types - who are willing to jeopordize their health for the sake of a result; but the vast majority would not be, but for pressure from their handlers. No one can

stop riders from doping except other riders. If they are organized and in control of their own fates, doping is finished.

I am waiting for someone in the peloton to show some balls like floyd Landis and say enough is enough, but hey that's just all ridiculous

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

The night before race day, NO. Just not fair unless they wake all the riders up. BUT if they want to wake them up, do it say a half hour before they'd normally wake anyway. That way they don't have to get back to sleep. Then it puts the burden back on the rider, suspecting they might get an early wake up call, to get to bed a half hour earlier the night before.

 

[washedup]

Gosh.... I am already missing sleep with the doping regimen.... now I have to worry about getting woken up at 3!!!!

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I posted this to point out the absurdity of waking people up at 3 AM in the middle of a stage race. Apparently no one here thinks it's unreasonable to propose hanging riders

by their gonads in order to fight doping . . . . Someone even replied to my post as though I was serious.


People, take a step back. Put yourself in the riders' position. You're in a stage race. You're exhausted, so much so that you maybe have trouble getting to sleep. Finally you

fall into blessed, deep, restful REM sleep; and then, suddenly, you hear a clamor. What's going on? Where am I? OMG, someone's rapping at the door. Fire in the hotel?!

Someone at home died?! "Good morning. Sorry for waking you at 3 AM, but it's time for a doping control."


I can tell you, if I were that rider I'd tell them to get bent, and then I'd retire right there. I don't care what JV says. He's speaking as an owner. Let them wake him up. If

they can't find a way to detect doping without going to absurd, inhumane extremes, they need to redouble their efforts. Treating the riders without consideration, just to

ensure they aren't doping, is just the flip side of making them dope to improve their results. Same coin, different day.


And if you seriously think it's alright to do whatever to a rider, under the guise of anti-doping, you really need to take a look at yourself.

Imagine you're a young neopro, say early twenties, you're physiologically gifted, and you happen to believe in the honest ethics of true sport. You blast through the junior and amateur fields, crushing everyone and are heralded as a local hero. The next star. As you pass through the upper amateur ranks you realize that there is a serious doping problem in cycling.

You've dedicated your youth to bettering yourself as a rider, and have put many other 'real life' concerns on hold (education, relationships, having a 'normal life', etc). With your natural physiology, which has garnered you a bit of fame and enough good results to make it to the 'big time', you get increasingly frustrated with how 'relative' your ability to perform has become.

Guys you used to walk away from on climbs are dropping you like a rock. You're completely on the rivet from start to finish at most races, and forget about winning - you can't even do any worthwhile work to really help your team out.

Continually getting outperformed by riders who, only a season ago, made you look like a superstar is starting to get old, but you tough it out for a few more years.

You finally lose all faith in the sport, and retire with nothing. No WC medal, no yellow jersey, no Olympic medal. Also with none of the 'normal' trappings that result from growing up in the non-cycling world.

You become despondent, a bit bitter, and end up driving a truck for a living. Or killing yourself in a cheap, stark hotel room...


Nah... I'll take the 300h wake-up call.

Cry me a river, Maxiton...

 

[flicker]

Imagine you're a young neopro, say early twenties, you're physiologically gifted, and you happen to believe in the honest ethics of true sport. You blast through the junior and amateur fields, crushing everyone and are heralded as a local hero. The next star. As you pass through the upper amateur ranks you realize that there is a serious doping problem in cycling.

You've dedicated your youth to bettering yourself as a rider, and have put many other 'real life' concerns on hold (education, relationships, having a 'normal life', etc). With your natural physiology, which has garnered you a bit of fame and enough good results to make it to the 'big time', you get increasingly frustrated with how 'relative' your ability to perform has become.

Guys you used to walk away from on climbs are dropping you like a rock. You're completely on the rivet from start to finish at most races, and forget about winning - you can't even do any worthwhile work to really help your team out.

Continually getting outperformed by riders who, only a season ago, made you look like a superstar is starting to get old, but you tough it out for a few more years.

You finally lose all faith in the sport, and retire with nothing. No WC medal, no yellow jersey, no Olympic medal. Also with none of the 'normal' trappings that result from growing up in the non-cycling world.

You become despondent, a bit bitter, and end up driving a truck for a living. Or killing yourself in a cheap, stark hotel room...


Nah... I'll take the 300h wake-up call.

Cry me a river, Maxiton...

Are you talking F. Vanderbrouke, Iban Mayo Pantani or Floyd here?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Are you talking F. Vanderbrouke, Iban Mayo Pantani or Floyd here?

Any of the above, plus a few teams-worth of riders I grew up with. Not everyone is ethically numb enough to cheat their way into a profitable career.

As much as the 'armchair pros' on this site love to either justify, or vilify, doping there really is a cost that's borne by talented kids that get run out of the sport.

That's not only sad, it's tragic.

 

[washedup]

It's about time to make a major commitment to making an honest sport. I would imagine each and every clean rider would be proud to pee in a cup at 3 AM. What better way to pound your chest than to be in that league, knowing full well you earned it like a man.

 

[180mmCrank]

It's about time to make a major commitment to making an honest sport. I would imagine each and every clean rider would be proud to pee in a cup at 3 AM. What better way to pound your chest than to be in that league, knowing full well you earned it like a man.

Really? Go try and wake one up and 3am and ask them - be ready to duck when they take a swing at you!

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Really? Go try and wake one up and 3am and ask them - be ready to duck when they take a swing at you!

Looks like not all of them are going to punch you out...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cavendish-says-night-time-doping-controls-are-no-problem

Smart PR move by the missle...

 

[beelzebozo]

Looks like not all of them are going to punch you out...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cavendish-says-night-time-doping-controls-are-no-problem

Smart PR move by the missle...

Funnily enough this is the kind of comment I'd expect to hear - at least from riders who do not dope - instead of complaining about it.

The bottom line is this..would you prefer coming 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 2nd, 3rd etc etc every race, knowing you are being beaten by riders who you suspect/know are doping (I'm sure everyone knows who the dopers are in the peloton) OR sleep a bit less once every blue moon. I'm just surprised by the Italian riders' reaction that's all - this quote is much more reasonable, slap bang in the middle: "Team Sky's Thomas Löfkvist said that the test might be necessary, but that further consideration was necessary, as the riders' sleep is very important." instead of mocking the whole process and questioning it without any facts being given, as was done by Nibali and Pozzato.

It's just like in the past when there were rider protests to do with doping - too much of it I guess was the complaint - that always made me wonder what their motivation was. If I lost races to dopers, that would tear me up inside, I'd do my best to get rid of them without being a 'rat'.

 

[180mmCrank]

Today in CN

"World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) director general David Howman has clarified that the night time controls recommended by independent observers of the Tour de France’s anti-doping programme would not take place in the middle of the night."

I don't want to say i told folk that this wwould never happen but...

Terry

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Today in CN

"World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) director general David Howman has clarified that the night time controls recommended by independent observers of the Tour de France’s anti-doping programme would not take place in the middle of the night."

I don't want to say i told folk that this wwould never happen but...

Terry

The controls don't need to be at 300h, as long as the 'window' is shortened.

What time is 'the middle of the night' anyway? Since they're going to be targeting suspect profiles, I don't really think that a clean rider need worry about his sleep getting disrupted. As to dirty riders be disrupted, I don't really care...

 

[buckwheat]

The controls don't need to be at 300h, as long as the 'window' is shortened.

What time is 'the middle of the night' anyway? Since they're going to be targeting suspect profiles, I don't really think that a clean rider need worry about his sleep getting disrupted. As to dirty riders be disrupted, I don't really care...

Could be looked at as lifesaving so guys with 30-40 bpm don't have sludge clogging the pump.

Do the jumping jacks and get controlled, then back to sleep.