Should the grupetto have been DQ'd on Stage 15?

[hrotha]

Re:

It would lead to weird situations like teammates sprinting against each other to stay in the race, or riders wheelsucking in the grupetto to save their skin with a good finish, while the grupetto workers go out.

I think it's more likely that the grupetto would simply work together to avoid that situation in the first place, since it'd be the safest option even for those with a good kick. But you never know.

 

[veji11]

Re:

It would lead to weird situations like teammates sprinting against each other to stay in the race, or riders wheelsucking in the grupetto to save their skin with a good finish, while the grupetto workers go out.

Or conversely they could all avoid having to act like gladiators by, you know, just ride at a sufficient enough speed to get into the TL... Simples...

EDIT : Damn Hrotha again !

 

[lartiste]

Re: Re:

Anyway I would support to disqualify all of the riders in grupetto today, since the riders show just contempt to the rest of the riders, race and fans and sponsors as well. What I pretty do not understand is why at least Sky with several riders did push hard to try to join Froome ... .

They did. The few times early in the stage the TV showed the third group it was being led by Sky. They were making no dent in catching Froomes group (with hindsight the second group may have been better waiting for the third group).

My guess is that only Sky (and probably Orica) from the 'gruppetto' tried to get back to the second group. Once it became clear they couldn't do it alone (or they simply ran out of energy) they sat up and no one else was prepared to contribute. Lets remember Sky and Orica had worked very hard the previous day (what were the other teams excuses?).

Its completely Skys fault they got caught by Contadors attack. It was amateurish and if they lost riders to the time limit then they can hardly complain. But lets not say they didn't try to get back to Froome (they did for a while at least) or that the decision not to DQ all the riders was in any way due to some of them being from Sky.

OK, I did not notice this fact, and assumed that the power of Sky to catch at least second group was there (especially when Valverde was disrupting the pace of second group), but probably they were really tired after the stage on Saturday ... .

 

[mjreck]

Doesn't la Vuelta come under ASOs umbrella of events? I suppose with the worldtour most teams know they're automatically invited to events, so it's difficult for the organizers to lean on the teams in these circumstances and say "heh, try that again and see how many of our events you can enter next year". I mean, it was a pretty disrespectful display towards the organizers. I'd start by having a brief word with Direct Energie, all their riders in the grupetto, explaining to them not to bother looking for a wildcard next year.

 

[veji11]

Re:

Doesn't la Vuelta come under ASOs umbrella of events? I suppose with the worldtour most teams know they're automatically invited to events, so it's difficult for the organizers to lean on the teams in these circumstances and say "heh, try that again and see how many of our events you can enter next year". I mean, it was a pretty disrespectful display towards the organizers. I'd start by having a brief word with Direct Energie, all their riders in the grupetto, explaining to them not to bother looking for a wildcard next year.

Nah you cant' start singling out teams, be it Direct Energie or sky.. the rule should be a lot more brutal in its automaticity : if more than x% riders are out of the TL, the organiser could reinstate them but the last z% have to be thrown out.

 

[lartiste]

Re: Re:

Anyway I would support to disqualify all of the riders in grupetto today, since the riders show just contempt to the rest of the riders, race and fans and sponsors as well. What I pretty do not understand is why at least Sky with several riders did push hard to try to join Froome ... .

They did. The few times early in the stage the TV showed the third group it was being led by Sky. They were making no dent in catching Froomes group (with hindsight the second group may have been better waiting for the third group).

My guess is that only Sky (and probably Orica) from the 'gruppetto' tried to get back to the second group. Once it became clear they couldn't do it alone (or they simply ran out of energy) they sat up and no one else was prepared to contribute. Lets remember Sky and Orica had worked very hard the previous day (what were the other teams excuses?).

Its completely Skys fault they got caught by Contadors attack. It was amateurish and if they lost riders to the time limit then they can hardly complain. But lets not say they didn't try to get back to Froome (they did for a while at least) or that the decision not to DQ all the riders was in any way due to some of them being from Sky.

OK, I did not notice this fact, and assumed that the power of Sky to catch at least second group was there (especially when Valverde was disrupting the pace of second group), but probably they were really tired after the stage on Saturday ... .

Rewatched the begining of the stage and you are right, they were really trying, unfortunatelly were unable to join the second group ....

 

[mjreck]

Re: Re:

Doesn't la Vuelta come under ASOs umbrella of events? I suppose with the worldtour most teams know they're automatically invited to events, so it's difficult for the organizers to lean on the teams in these circumstances and say "heh, try that again and see how many of our events you can enter next year". I mean, it was a pretty disrespectful display towards the organizers. I'd start by having a brief word with Direct Energie, all their riders in the grupetto, explaining to them not to bother looking for a wildcard next year.

Nah you cant' start singling out teams, be it Direct Energie or sky.. the rule should be a lot more brutal in its automaticity : if more than x% riders are out of the TL, the organiser could reinstate them but the last z% have to be thrown out.

Yeah that's true, to single out one team would be unfair. But still, would you blame them for telling Direct Energie to *** off if they wanted a wildcard next year?
But essentially the organizers hands are tied, try to punish teams and they'll withdraw or not send a decent team next year, I can kinda see ASOs point a bit better now, of not wanting to have their events on the worldtour. At least if they all needed an invite it'd be easier to nip this kinda thing in the bud.

 

[nogav1ca]

They could make two time limits, one where you get your points deduced and the other where you get thrown out no matter what. F.e. at 18 % you get points deduction, preferably a big one, and at 22 % you get thrown out of the race. It would work especially where sprinters are in competition for points jersey. And even if not, it would force them to ride a relatively strong pace.

 

[glassmoon]

Re:

They could make two time limits, one where you get your points deduced and the other where you get thrown out no matter what. F.e. at 18 % you get points deduction, preferably a big one, and at 22 % you get thrown out of the race. It would work especially where sprinters are in competition for points jersey. And even if not, it would force them to ride a relatively strong pace.

that might actually work :idea:
+1

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

They could make two time limits, one where you get your points deduced and the other where you get thrown out no matter what. F.e. at 18 % you get points deduction, preferably a big one, and at 22 % you get thrown out of the race. It would work especially where sprinters are in competition for points jersey. And even if not, it would force them to ride a relatively strong pace.

This is too complicated and just penalises one or two riders above everyone else.

They just need enforce the current rule properly.

 

[Frosty]

So who normally makes sure that the autobus arrives within, or at least close to, the time limit? Do the teams with sprinters try to make sure they stay within the time limit or is there some kind of unwritten rule where one man from each team circles round at a steady pace? Just wondering why no one seemed to put in the effort yesterday.

 

[King Boonen]

So who normally makes sure that the autobus arrives within, or at least close to, the time limit? Do the teams with sprinters try to make sure they stay within the time limit or is there some kind of unwritten rule where one man from each team circles round at a steady pace? Just wondering why no one seemed to put in the effort yesterday.

There is a very good video somewhere online showing how the cars and riders work together to get them over the finish line. When I'm not on my phone I'll find it.

 

[Jagartrott]

On Sporza, the commentators said they saw several riders of the big group grinning when crossing the line yesterday. They knew exactly what they were doing, and got away with it.

 

[DanielSong39]

So who normally makes sure that the autobus arrives within, or at least close to, the time limit? Do the teams with sprinters try to make sure they stay within the time limit or is there some kind of unwritten rule where one man from each team circles round at a steady pace? Just wondering why no one seemed to put in the effort yesterday.

Seems pretty easy. If the grupetto is in danger of not making the cut, Just send a neutral service car (or bike) and make the peloton follow. Have a second car at the end of the grupetto. If you're behind the second car you're automatically out.

You'll probably see guys try to draft the cars but I suppose that's something most people can live with.

 

[nogav1ca]

Re: Re:

They could make two time limits, one where you get your points deduced and the other where you get thrown out no matter what. F.e. at 18 % you get points deduction, preferably a big one, and at 22 % you get thrown out of the race. It would work especially where sprinters are in competition for points jersey. And even if not, it would force them to ride a relatively strong pace.

This is too complicated and just penalises one or two riders above everyone else.

They just need enforce the current rule properly.

I wouldn't say it is too complicated. And with current time limits and additional, let's say, 10 %, I think there shouldn't be too many OTL. And it would force whole grupetto to ride faster - sprinters who can climb a bit better might take advantage of this to try and "win" some points even in mountain stages.

And yes, I agree with your second point. It would be the best and simplest solution.

 

[el chava]

Can somebody tell me what is the argument for still upholding the time limit rule (in general, not yesterday)?
It seriously seems as something Henri Desgrange or Jacques Goddet would invent just to annoy the riders.

Serious question.

 

[hrotha]

Can somebody tell me what is the argument for still upholding the time limit rule (in general, not yesterday)?
It seriously seems as something Henri Desgrange or Jacques Goddet would invent just to annoy the riders.

Serious question.

If nothing else, because you have closed roads you need to open to the traffic again. Plus there's people waiting to watch, and on top of that requiring the riders to go at a reasonable pace also adds to the whole endurance aspect of the sport.

Like there's plenty of reasons for the time limit.

 

[Queens Boulevard]

Can somebody tell me what is the argument for still upholding the time limit rule (in general, not yesterday)?
It seriously seems as something Henri Desgrange or Jacques Goddet would invent just to annoy the riders.

Serious question.

I think because it's a race that's partially about endurance. Not just for team leaders but for the support teammates as well. It requires teams to think about how they want to expend the energy of their team. If a team like Sky (for example) could have riders like Poels or Landa finish 2 or 3 hours behind the main group on stages they don't need to help on obviously they'll be a lot fresher and can push much harder to either negate racing or blow it apart on subsequent days where the GC might be an issue. Also sprinter teams would probably make a farce of it and it would be a bad look if some of the best cyclists in the world were consistently coming through the finish at nightfall. The time limits are not that prohibitory and frankly force certain cyclists to respect the race as a whole.

As per this instance specifically of course this was a case of riders en masse deciding not to respect this race. I agree it's ugly and has no place in professional cycling. The problem is this idea that the organizers have any real recourse. The only proper punishment is disqualification. All this points deductions or time deductions nonsense is silly. The reason they can't disqualify these riders is two-fold. One, the shear number of riders involved makes it very difficult to do and have your race still be taken seriously. And two, because as much as those of us who follow this forum love cycling and enjoy races like the Vuelta it's still a very secondary race. For most of the sponsors this race is most likely less important to them then minor races like Tour of Britain or California (to use anglo examples). So in order to build their race into something greater they are forced to stomach a little more rider insurrection than the Tour or even the Giro would be to keep favorable status with DS's and riders. The last couple of years they've been very fortunate with real talent coming and racing in Spain, I'm sure they'd rather not alienate their way back into the place where the Merckx's and the Armstrong's of the world ignore them completely and they're left with such worthy winners as Chris Horner.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

At the same time, the era when the Vuelta used to tailor its parcours specifically to try to attract big names from abroad and let them get away with murder was a large part of why the race has always been the weakest of the GTs; since the mid 70s and especially the early 80s the race has worked really hard to overcome that - think of Dancelli blatantly holding on to cars in 1967 and throwing a tantrum over a one minute penalty, then the next day taking the race lead from Perurena in generous sprint bonuses, or Ferdinand Bracke's team threatening to pull out over a thirty second penalty after he took an illegal feed in 1971, with the commissar forced to pretend he wrote down the wrong dorsal number even though Bracke was in the leader's jersey so should have been pretty recognizable.

The Vuelta has come a long way from those days when its provincial nature and willingness to improve its field meant that the teams of foreign stars attracted to it would sometimes take liberties with the race organizers' generosity to accommodate them, so while they do have to withstand a bit more than the Tour or Giro, they can't allow the riders to dictate the game to them. They have to decide which is more farcical: a Grand Tour which finishes with a péloton the size of the one riding a .1 race, or a race organizer who holds little authority over the péloton and bows to its demands as it flagrantly breaks the rules knowing it can't be punished. The Vuelta, since the move to September, may fear the days of provincial fields, but it shouldn't; the September location means that as long as there are riders who don't get their peak right for either May or July they will get at least a decent GC field, if the Worlds course is appropriately tough they'll get a good mix of contenders, and while there may be a couple of surprise winners in the recent history, it's a) not any more ridiculous than Hesjedal at the Giro and Pereiro at the Tour, and b) not because the field was awful - when Cobo won the field included Scarponi, Antón, Nibali and Rodríguez who were all hotly tipped for the race, they just made a mess of their race preparation.

 

[Billie]

Can somebody tell me what is the argument for still upholding the time limit rule (in general, not yesterday)?
It seriously seems as something Henri Desgrange or Jacques Goddet would invent just to annoy the riders.

Serious question.

De Cauwer today told a story about something similar happening in the 70's Tour de France where about 35 riders took it easy during a mountain stage, mocking Levitan while taking it easy and coming in way outside the time limit. Levitan had no problem throwing all of them, including the green jersey out.

 

[peloton]

Re:

On Sporza, the commentators said they saw several riders of the big group grinning when crossing the line yesterday. They knew exactly what they were doing, and got away with it.

Apparently some in the grupetto wanted to ride faster to finish in the time cut but got told to **** off by others.

 

[SlickMongoose]

The best race at the olympics was the elimination race - the constant tension makes it incredibly compelling viewing.

So the obvious solution to all of this is to implement the same thing on the road. 198 riders over 21 stages makes for 9 or 10 elimination points per stage (you could have more eliminations in the flat stages to make them more exciting to watch, and fewer in the better stages). Last rider standing is the winner.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

On Sporza, the commentators said they saw several riders of the big group grinning when crossing the line yesterday. They knew exactly what they were doing, and got away with it.

Apparently some in the grupetto wanted to ride faster to finish in the time cut but got told to **** off by others.

And instead of telling those others to shove it and to ride regardless, they played along. Everyone there was equally guilty.

 

[joe_papp]

Errr yeah. Great idea. Let's eliminate 90+ riders from a GT w/ a week to go. lol

 

[Angliru]

So who normally makes sure that the autobus arrives within, or at least close to, the time limit? Do the teams with sprinters try to make sure they stay within the time limit or is there some kind of unwritten rule where one man from each team circles round at a steady pace? Just wondering why no one seemed to put in the effort yesterday.

Seems pretty easy. If the grupetto is in danger of not making the cut, Just send a neutral service car (or bike) and make the peloton follow. Have a second car at the end of the grupetto. If you're behind the second car you're automatically out.

You'll probably see guys try to draft the cars but I suppose that's something most people can live with.

Drafting behind a car for 50 kms would still give the 90 riders a decided advantage in the coming stages over those that actually were racing their bikes so the comparison with riders drafting to regain contact while also illegal just doesn't fly.