Should the grupetto have been DQ'd on Stage 15?

[proffz]

the first twelve riders of today stage were all in the gruppetto at 53 min.
that means they had an advantage from their horrible performance of yesterday.

felline and bennati, two of the fastest wheel of the vuelta, were not present in the sprint.

it is a scandal the rules were not applied.

 

[el chava]

Re:

The best race at the olympics was the elimination race - the constant tension makes it incredibly compelling viewing.

So the obvious solution to all of this is to implement the same thing on the road. 198 riders over 21 stages makes for 9 or 10 elimination points per stage (you could have more eliminations in the flat stages to make them more exciting to watch, and fewer in the better stages). Last rider standing is the winner.

Will and should not happen.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Errr yeah. Great idea. Let's eliminate 90+ riders from a GT w/ a week to go. lol

Had the correct decision been made they would have eliminated themselves

 

[Frosty]

the first twelve riders of today stage were all in the gruppetto at 53 min.
that means they had an advantage from their horrible performance of yesterday.

felline and bennati, two of the fastest wheel of the vuelta, were not present in the sprint.

it is a scandal the rules were not applied.

I generally agree although Bennati was not present in the sprint because of his late attack.

 

[el chava]

Can somebody tell me what is the argument for still upholding the time limit rule (in general, not yesterday)?
It seriously seems as something Henri Desgrange or Jacques Goddet would invent just to annoy the riders.

Serious question.

If nothing else, because you have closed roads you need to open to the traffic again. Plus there's people waiting to watch, and on top of that requiring the riders to go at a reasonable pace also adds to the whole endurance aspect of the sport.

Like there's plenty of reasons for the time limit.

I am not talking about ending the race at midnight, although I doubt anyone would prefer arriving that late (the race is won recuperating in bed, remember). But a 2 hour delay is fine with me.

I frankly still don't get it; the humiliating aspect of seeing injured riders getting thrown out because they are seconds late is just stupid sadism, and a leftover from ancient times. Of course sprinter teams and GC domestiques will use this to their advantage, but this would be the same for everyone and could maybe even open for new tactical possibilities.

And lots of bad crashes happen when riders take chances on the descents just to make the time limit.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

They could make two time limits, one where you get your points deduced and the other where you get thrown out no matter what. F.e. at 18 % you get points deduction, preferably a big one, and at 22 % you get thrown out of the race. It would work especially where sprinters are in competition for points jersey. And even if not, it would force them to ride a relatively strong pace.

This is too complicated and just penalises one or two riders above everyone else.

They just need enforce the current rule properly.

I wouldn't say it is too complicated. And with current time limits and additional, let's say, 10 %, I think there shouldn't be too many OTL. And it would force whole grupetto to ride faster - sprinters who can climb a bit better might take advantage of this to try and "win" some points even in mountain stages.

And yes, I agree with your second point. It would be the best and simplest solution.

It's ridiculous. The current limit is fine, they just need to actually enforce it. Your suggestion will only matter to a couple of sprinters per GT, no one else cares about points. So all it would do is extend the time limit for everyone and needlessly punish people who are actually trying to compete by forcing them to ride faster.

 

[hrotha]

But a 2 hour delay is fine with me.

You don't get to call the time limit rule "stupid" after a line like this. Again, the roads can't be closed to traffic indefinitely. Again, allowing everybody to go 25-30 km/h day in day out would drastically change the sport.

 

[StryderHells]

Errr yeah. Great idea. Let's eliminate 90+ riders from a GT w/ a week to go. lol

So it's perfectly okay for riders to wilfully break the rules? Maybe if the had actually made an effort to make the time cut then this discussion wouldn't be happening but they essentially gave up on the stage so I don't see why the race shouldn't just give up on them.

 

[StryderHells]

I don't understand why so many in here are proposing new rules to deal with this situation, we really don't need to rules for this but rather the current rules to be enforced. It all seems pretty simple to me

 

[Sykes]

Re:

I don't understand why so many in here are proposing new rules to deal with this situation, we really don't need to rules for this but rather the current rules to be enforced. It all seems pretty simple to me

Of course it's simple! Rules are there for some reason and time limits are there for some reason too! I can't understand why is this even debatable. They knew perfectly what they were doing and, in an act of arrogance if you ask me, they took for granted not to be DQ since that group had such an amount of riders. Stupid and unprofessional attitude from those who could actually finish before the time limit. And yeah, i believe that for some riders (something like 5/10% of the group) that day was just too hard...for the others: no excuses!

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

I don't understand why so many in here are proposing new rules to deal with this situation, we really don't need to rules for this but rather the current rules to be enforced. It all seems pretty simple to me

Of course it's simple! Rules are there for some reason and time limits are there for some reason too! I can't understand why is this even debatable. They knew perfectly what they were doing and, in an act of arrogance if you ask me, they took for granted not to be DQ since that group had such an amount of riders. Stupid and unprofessional attitude from those who could actually finish before the time limit. And yeah, i believe that for some riders (something like 5/10% of the group) that day was just too hard...for the others: no excuses!

But it comes back to what Joe Papp said - do you remove HALF THE PELOTON with a week to go? This would have included the entire Bora team.

The UCI should have butted in, fined each team for the number of riders who missed the cut and warned against it happening again in the future. But as usual, they're asleep at the wheel.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

Yes it should be inforced HOWEVER today was an exceptional circumstance case, why you ask? Simply because the red jersey attacked from far out distancing the second place rider causing the race to explode, THESE circumstances are as exceptional as snow, ice 40. Heat… what's more a vuelta with less than half its riders immediately loses credibility in most people's eyes I think. I see these comments and everyone is taking it in the heat of the moment and letting basically there sky hatred out for many. I'm sure once people take a step back and analyse they will realize that the right decision is not to exclude one hundred riders from the second biggest race in cycling

*enforced

Who here has blamed Sky? Also, the race situation has nothing to do with how easy the gruppetto CHOOSES to ride. The UCI needs to step in here, and get both the teams and the race organisers to get their acts together.

Nobody expects the gruppetto to chase back on, but they could at least respect the race enough to at least attempt to make the time cut. For now, a small fine for each rider in the gruppetto along with a warning direct from the UCI should be enough.

The race organisers should have recognised what was happening, and told the riders to get their collective backsides into gear and honour the race, or be cut, regardless of the number of riders. It was very poor form there as well, and the UCI should be having words with the organisers and commissaires regarding this.

But, as always, the supposed head of the sport is asleep at the wheel.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re the rules: Well... there is that bit with the rules actually allowing the jury to give dispensations if the situation is deemed to be extraordinary. Of course the question is whether or not the gruppetto deciding to ride slowly is really an extraordinary situation, well... the jury treated is as such.
Now, of course a big question is why the jury seemingly didn't do more to get the riders to keep going? They could simply have sent a message out saying that they would take everyone out if they didn't do more to be within the limit. Unless, of course, they never intended to anyway.

 

[SafeBet]

Re:

Re the rules: Well... there is that bit with the rules actually allowing the jury to give dispensations if the situation is deemed to be extraordinary. Of course the question is whether or not the gruppetto deciding to ride slowly is really an extraordinary situation, well... the jury treated is as such.

The jury didn't deem the situation extraordinary. They shitted their pants cause they didn't want half the peloton to be thrown out.

And let's face it: the biggest problem in cycling is that juries can discretionally decide about too many aspects of the rulebook. A consistent enforcement of the rules is the very thing that makes a sport fair. Cycling is not fair.

 

[veji11]

Re: Re:

Re the rules: Well... there is that bit with the rules actually allowing the jury to give dispensations if the situation is deemed to be extraordinary. Of course the question is whether or not the gruppetto deciding to ride slowly is really an extraordinary situation, well... the jury treated is as such.

The jury didn't deem the situation extraordinary. They shitted their pants cause they didn't want half the peloton to be thrown out.

And let's face it: the biggest problem in cycling is that juries can discretionally decide about too many aspects of the rulebook. A consistent enforcement of the rules is the very thing that makes a sport fair. Cycling is not fair.

True, for the same offense sometimes riders get DQed, no penalty, a fine... Tell Bouhanni that he was treated the same way as other sprinters in Hamburg ! (Btw I think DQing was perfectly normal and the thing to do, it's just that I have seen it many times not happen in this situation).

So had we had yesterday 5 riders really having a hard day, cracking in Formigual an losing the Gruppetto which would have made it inside the TL, they most probably would have been thrown out despite their best efforts. Here 90 lads just don't give a toss and they get a thank you card.

 

[King Boonen]

One of the biggest disappointments in this situation is that usually we are almost always, to a person, on the other side of this argument. When someone has crashed, raced hard and dropped or is sick and trying their hardest to just make the cut you will see many people willing them on and saying there should be leniency in the decision, but there hardly ever is. They get kicked out because it's one or two riders and the jury just says they are "following the rule". Well how about they remain consistent and apply the same thing here? Hardly too much to ask is it?

 

[veji11]

Re:

One of the biggest disappointments in this situation is that usually we are almost always, to a person, on the other side of this argument. When someone has crashed, raced hard and dropped or is sick and trying their hardest to just make the cut you will see many people willing them on and saying there should be leniency in the decision, but there hardly ever is. They get kicked out because it's one or two riders and the jury just says they are "following the rule". Well how about they remain consistent and apply the same thing here? Hardly too much to ask is it?

exactly. cynical mass abuse of the rule is excused, a rider on a piss poor day doing what he can to finish in time, basically respecting the race by giving his all as if he was competing to be at the front of the race ? chucked out...

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

Re the rules: Well... there is that bit with the rules actually allowing the jury to give dispensations if the situation is deemed to be extraordinary. Of course the question is whether or not the gruppetto deciding to ride slowly is really an extraordinary situation, well... the jury treated is as such.

The jury didn't deem the situation extraordinary. They shitted their pants cause they didn't want half the peloton to be thrown out.

Well, that's not the explanation they're given.

“This is an exceptional measure,” Guillén told AS. “We considered how the stage developed and the effort from the preceding stages. And we have just come off an extremely demanding stage at the Aubisque. Of course, without this exception, we would have eliminated 93 riders.”
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/09/vuelta-a-espana/jury-saves-half-vuelta-peloton-time-cut_419968#sIIiwHzfEpWTGmWO.99

And even without that, being in a situation where you'd be forced to eliminate 93 riders is an extraordinary situation. A situation what would be extremely stupid, and not really serve the race in any way.

 

[hrotha]

Of course it would serve the race in a very real way: it would send a clear message that this kind of disrespectful thing (which has happened twice in a few days at the Vuelta just this year) will not be tolerated.

 

[RedheadDane]

Yet the race jury itself went out and said that one of the reasons - other than what's mentioned above - was that eliminating 93 riders would greatly diminish the value of the race.
I really don't see the issue with this happening every-now-and-then. If it happened every time there was a major mountain stage, then sure; toss 'em out! But the fact that every one and again the riders collectively say "*** this! We're tired!", honestly; doesn't bother me.

Also, would it serve the race; giving us great exciting racing for the last week, or would it serve the jury/UCI; giving them yet another reason to go into "You are all at our mercy!" mode?
Would it be great racing to have Movistar basically shepheard Quintana through the last few stages? Would it be great racing to see the breakaways sail away on every stage - except the ITT - because there are nobody left to even try putting up a chase?
In this situation the jury decided that the various factors; the number of riders as well as the nature of the stage - and the previous - meant that the best thing to do would be to allow the riders to continue. It's say it's fairly safe to assume that the jury probably are in a slightly better position to make that choice.

 

[seldon71]

It would have also served teams which DID NOT majorly participate in that "disgrace"...

Orica, Astana, Tinkoff, Cannondale wuld all be in great position to put pressure on Froome and challenge his podium place as he would have been without (or with my favored leniency policy with one) helper.

The few "sprinters" who fought their way under the time limit (Felline, Moser, Rojas, Keukeleire) would have been rewarded with a great opportunity to add some stage wins.

No team would EVER again risk a complete expulsion of any Grand Tour like Direct Energie here...

And probably the rest of the stages would have been exciting and open with no one really policing the pack (Movistar - yes, but only against actual GC rivals).


What would race have lost? Well, the biggest danger was obviously that Sky would throw down a tantrum and make Froome abandon as well...

I don't think FdJ would have done it despite Elissonde being alone. He would have still kept for polka dot.

Bora would have probably decided that it would be no worth of keeping the operation going for Pfingsten alone, LottoJumbo for Bennett ditto and maybe Giant for Ludwigsson+Haga. But who would have actually missed those guys? Bennett would've been an unfortunate single rider whose chance for Top10 would've been taken away with no fault of his own.

So race would've gone on with maybe 16 teams and some 67 riders. Fine with me.

 

[Armchair cyclist]

Re: Re:

The UCI should have butted in, fined each team for the number of riders who missed the cut and warned against it happening again in the future. But as usual, they're asleep at the wheel.

And the fines would have been overturned immediately on appeal. An authority cannot apply a different sanction after the rule has been broken from that which is promulgated as part of the rule.

And although it might be said that is what has happened here, the substituted sanction is A) established by precedent, and B) not going to be appealed because it dents no ambition (except slight hopes of Meersman).

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

The few "sprinters" who fought their way under the time limit (Felline, Moser, Rojas, Keukeleire) would have been rewarded with a great opportunity to add some stage wins.

Not if they wouldn't really have any helpers to pull back the breakaways. Rojas certainly wouldn't get to sprint.

For me it's just pretty simple.

1: The Jury are the people actually in Spain, and therefore - presumably - those who are in the best position to make a decision.
2: The Jury came to the agreement that elimitating 93 riders would not serve the race.
3: The Jury also decided to show some leniency due to the accumulated tiredness of the riders.

If they'd decided to throw the riders out, then... well... they'd have decided to throw the riders out, and I'd trust that they in such a situation would still be looking at what would serve the higher purpose ie; the race.

A situation where I do think the riders should have been tossed out is that if the peloton had somehow managed to go even slower on Friday, resulting in them all being OTL, and he Jury then giving them all dispensations. Then, on Sunday, the Jury would've had every right to go "Oi! We saved your asses Friday. Get going! Oh, this stage is a lot tougher than that one? Tough luck! Maybe you should've thought about that before you decided to break the laws of physics."
But of course even that wouldn't be 100% fair, because some riders who were in the break Friday were in the gruppetto Sunday, and some riders who were in the Peloton Friday were in the front groups(s) Sunday.

 

[hrotha]

The only fair decision would have been to apply the rules. If they were usually enforced, none of this would have happened.

 

[SafeBet]

Re: Re:

Well, that's not the explanation they're given.

“This is an exceptional measure,” Guillén told AS. “We considered how the stage developed and the effort from the preceding stages. And we have just come off an extremely demanding stage at the Aubisque. Of course, without this exception, we would have eliminated 93 riders.”
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/09/vuelta-a-espana/jury-saves-half-vuelta-peloton-time-cut_419968#sIIiwHzfEpWTGmWO.99

Lol what do you expect them to say in an official statement?
I think too highly of you to believe you're truly arguing about this.