should vino be forgiven ?

[Polish]

Vino4Ever

I find there is no reason to forgive Vino.
No reason to cast a vote at this time thank you very much.

See, I believe Vino is clean now (of course).
But I also believed him back in 2007 when he said his "positive" was due to conspiracy
or road rash or something.

If it turns out Vino was or is doping - THEN I would forgive him.
He has "class"
Heck, I would forgive Lance too if the same thing happens.

 

[Jonathan]

...you are over-interpreting...a very simple opinion forum poll.

No, I am not. What I wrote did not go far beyond reading (very) plain English.

 

[python]

No, I am not. What I wrote did not go far beyond reading (very) plain English.

please don't disturb the thread with your ofttopic pontification. i suggest you ignore the poll or take a walk.

 

[karlboss]

take the semantics to a language forum. if you feel obligated by a simple question should? whilst the absolute majority had no problems with it, you are having visions prolem or delusion particularly after being explained.

you wrote the question...I just answered it.

It would have been easier if you at least wrote who should forgive him...like do you think the UCI should forgive vino and then we can talk about lifetime bans. Do you think the sponsors should? then we can talk about riding as part of a team again. do you think the fans should? then we can talk about should he be spat on in the street (excessive I know)
In all honesty it was a tough question so I fell on semantics to answer it. Further to that I don't think Vino dopes too much harder if at all than many (all) others, I always liked him as a rider and was happy he won liege.

 

[Jonathan]

I think these pros that publicly speak out, criticising caught dopers, do so, for one reason and one reason alone.
To create and build for themselves a "clean" persona that allows them to be both fan and media friendly.

Given the environment of their work-place, they would have to be incredibly naive, not to be able to supply some worthwhile information to the authorities.
It's not as if these riders aren't mixing with the "wrong stuff".

There is a big difference between being a cheat basher and an Omerta breaker.

Still, it can be imagined that a truly clean rider is on the one hand frustrated by not being able to perform at the same level as dopers, but also forced to comply with the omerta for fear of losing his job. This could result in teeth-gritting and remarks in the vein of "We all know what I'm talking about." There could be genuine emotion behind it.

 

[Jonathan]

please don't disturb the thread with your ofttopic pontification. i suggest you ignore the poll or take a walk.

I was talking about the poll, so my posts were on topic.

 

[Beech Mtn]

I was thinking much the same earlier in the week.

Even mainstream media here, which rarely reports on cycling picked up on "Vino's win being soured by his 2007 positive" or something along those lines. I honestly don't think Valverde would receive this much flak if he won a monument. How is Vino worse than Valverde? What about Millar when he won a stage of the Vuelta?

Dopers in Australia elicit almost a sympathetic response from the media... Yet Vino, the evil man from a former-Soviet State will always be seen as the biggest doper in cycling.

Why Vino?

See, this makes me wonder if it's possible that there is some sort of concerted PR effort against Vino. I'm not surprised at all to see the cycling media bringing up the doping past, but why has the story spread to mainstream media in regions where cycling receives little coverage? Now who would want to drag Vino's reputation down or sully the appearance of the Astana team, hmm? Who would have something to gain by creating an atmosphere that would pressure ASO not to let Vino ride the Tour?

Of course, it may not be a PR tactic at all. But I'm keeping an open mind as to possibility that it might turn out to be such a thing.

On the subject of the poll, I interpreted "forgiven" to mean fully accepted back into the peloton, given a second chance, not held to a double-standard.

 

[flicker]

See, this makes me wonder if it's possible that there is some sort of concerted PR effort against Vino. I'm not surprised at all to see the cycling media bringing up the doping past, but why has the story spread to mainstream media in regions where cycling receives little coverage? Now who would want to drag Vino's reputation down or sully the appearance of the Astana team, hmm? Who would have something to gain by creating an atmosphere that would pressure ASO not to let Vino ride the Tour?

Of course, it may not be a PR tactic at all. But I'm keeping an open mind as to possibility that it might turn out to be such a thing.

On the subject of the poll, I interpreted "forgiven" to mean fully accepted back into the peloton, given a second chance, not held to a double-standard.

Are you talking White Satan Texan here, boy?

 

[python]

I was talking about the poll, so my posts were on topic.

once again i am asking you NOT to disturb the thread and ignore the topic, the poll, the language...whatever you dont like. open a poll in another forum on what "should" means. is it very complicated or you're just an obtuse individual who can not take no ?

 

[joe_papp]

On Vino's Letter

Matt Walsh at Twisted Spoke does a fun analysis of Vino's open letter to the public, here. Check it out.

 

[montagna lunga]

I'm on the fence, but spend more time looking at (and thinking about) the side that says "caught...sanctioned...served the sanction." The guy may be a total *** (and I think he is) but nothing in the sanctioning authority says he must seek forgiveness...let alone BE "forgiven." He's done the suspension, and if he's now clean .... really clean ... and not just escaping detection, then MY "forgiveness" isn't an issue. But I'll give you this: his personality doesn't make that venial jackass easy to like.

 

[bianchigirl]

I am no fan of Vino's but he is apparently being vilified for not being sorry enough. Thing is, who judges whether an apology is heartfelt and genuine or cynically expedient? David Millar, for example, called Gaumont a 'nutter' when he pointed the finger and set the lawyers on Kimmage then, when the police threatened him with jail time suddenly decided to come clean and be sorry. I'd judge that as a pretty expedient apology rather than the heartfelt one it is always sold as.

I can't see that Vinokourov has done anything significantly worse than Millar - the only difference I can perceive is that one speaks English as their native tongue and the other is from the ex-'Evil Empire'

 

[pmcg76]

Oh the irony, just two days after Vino wins L-B-L. Santiago Perez wins the Subida A Naranco in Spain, another doper winning....Noooooooooooooooo

I never remember Michele Scarponi getting this much stick and he is riding better now than he was before the suspension.

I think the prevailing attitudes is dopers can return but not win an important race.

 

[sportzchick]

I am no fan of Vino's but he is apparently being vilified for not being sorry enough. Thing is, who judges whether an apology is heartfelt and genuine or cynically expedient? David Millar, for example, called Gaumont a 'nutter' when he pointed the finger and set the lawyers on Kimmage then, when the police threatened him with jail time suddenly decided to come clean and be sorry. I'd judge that as a pretty expedient apology rather than the heartfelt one it is always sold as.

I can't see that Vinokourov has done anything significantly worse than Millar - the only difference I can perceive is that one speaks English as their native tongue and the other is from the ex-'Evil Empire'

I agree with that 100% actually

Vino can be critised but other cheats cant by the looks

to me the fairer question is should all of them be forgiven? to me thats a given...not on your life

Ive havent heard one good arguement against giving them a life ban - you would think twice if you knew that you could lose everything and not get it back if you are caught instead of being given a holiday and the ablilty to fool everyone again.

As it stands the UCI and the fans are as soft as butter

 

[blaxland]

I was a big fan of Vino back in the day, I don't think anyone would deny that he is an exciting and aggressive rider. When he got caught, he acted (much like Landis) as though the whole thing was some huge conspiracy that had been concocted specifically to slander and defame him. I think that is doing a massive disservice to his fans. When he got caught he should have been man enough to admit he made a mistake, instead of treating his supporters like idiots by feeding them a line of bull****.

Also, Dean? Back off. It would be nice to for once have a discussion without it descending into personal attacks before the end of the first page.

Totally agree Jamsque 10000000000000000%...............at least Thomas Frei admitted his mistake openly and Honestly...................

 

[Von Mises]

I was thinking much the same earlier in the week.

Even mainstream media here, which rarely reports on cycling picked up on "Vino's win being soured by his 2007 positive" or something along those lines. I honestly don't think Valverde would receive this much flak if he won a monument. How is Vino worse than Valverde? What about Millar when he won a stage of the Vuelta?

Dopers in Australia elicit almost a sympathetic response from the media... Yet Vino, the evil man from a former-Soviet State will always be seen as the biggest doper in cycling.

Why Vino?

There are differences between Vino and Valverde, between Vino and Millar. At least from the viewpoint of mainstream media or general public. Vino´s case is clear: he doped, got caught, git suspended. But Valverde has not been caught, general public sees this as copmlicated and boring legal wrestling not as clear cut case. And Millar, well, he has been back for so many years, that his doping history has faded into obscurity.

 

[cotterpin]

There are differences between Vino and Valverde, between Vino and Millar. At least from the viewpoint of mainstream media or general public. Vino´s case is clear: he doped, got caught, git suspended. But Valverde has not been caught, general public sees this as copmlicated and boring legal wrestling not as clear cut case. And Millar, well, he has been back for so many years, that his doping history has faded into obscurity.

Its because of his nationality, if the euro press saw him as a euro he'd get treated like'Piti" ;but despite his blonde hair and blue eyes they don;t see him as one of their own

 

[Steel4Ever]

Forgiven?! Ha!

What does that even mean?!?!

And "forgiven" by who exactly?

The fans? Ha!
See the video of last Sunday?
Obviously the roadside fans didn't care that he was riding.

He did the CRIME, he paid the TIME.
That's how it works!

"Forgiveness" is COMPLETELY irrelevant.

We all "forgave" poor TommyB for commiting a civil crime THREE times -- and he didn't even get an ounce of legal punishment!

Oh fickle fans! You make me laugh! Tee hee!

 

[Steel4Ever]

He should be banned for life. The guy is unrepentant.

Ha! Are you serious?!?!

Is the Catholic church running professional cycling now?

Lifetime ban because he comes back into the sport aggressive and aiming to win instead of hiding at the back of the pack and soft peddling for a year?

Repenting and forgiveness have NOTHING to do with the legalities of the sport!

Good thing people like you don't run the court systems.

 

[patricknd]

he doesn't need forgiveness. he was caught, served the penalty he was given, and now he's racing again. he has every right to do so.

 

[Martin318is]

Its all a bit weird really.

Like many, I really liked Vino's attacking style and for instance, pretty much stayed out of my seat for the whole final stage the year that he went after all the intermediate time bonuses in order to get one place up the order (was it into 5th? I can't remember off hand). Likewise some of his attacking in the mountains was awesome and who was it that everyone was chasing downhill on the infamous day that LA showed is offroad talents and Beloki demonstrated the high speed dismount? vino

However, when he got busted I found myself dumping all those thoughts and memories and replacing them with 'F_ing doper! Get out of my sport and don't come back!'

The thing is though, he was caught, protested like most do, but got the full term and served it pretty quietly.

An interesting - though obscure - analogy was the murder in Australian prison of the gangland criminal Carl Williams last week. The former police commissioner was asked whether she was glad that he was now dead. Her response was (paraphrasing heavily here):
What a stupid question. He was tried by the public prosecutor and found by a judge to be guilty. he was in jail serving the sentence he was given by the community. Therefore he didn't deserve any "extra" punishment.

What I am saying here is that Vino was an exciting rider but that was damaged by his doping conviction. He served the penalty and is now until any proof can be established otherwise, riding clean. Any successes he gets now should be judged against that.

As such, I am not really cheering for him, but I was impressed by his win and I am looking forward to him animating other races.

In any event, he was back in form in terms of making for an interesting finale wasn't he!

 

[Jonathan]

Matt Walsh at Twisted Spoke does a fun analysis of Vino's open letter to the public, here. Check it out.

We should all read this. Two misunderstandings from this thread are cleared up in the article (and Vinokourov's letter): that he has not admitted doping and that he is unrepentant.

Which is great. Because now those people saying "I was a fan of Vino but not anymore, because he never admitted doping" can now go back to being fans. After all, being a fan of someone is a purely rational decision...right?

 

[BroDeal]

Ha! Are you serious?!?!

Is the Catholic church running professional cycling now?

The new punishment for doping.

 

[jens_attacks]

oh my god! the pubers want to forgive vino=)))))))))))))))oh no)))))
are you fuccing serious?
he did nothing wrong,he's a professional rider,that's all.

 

[-shady-]

He gets caught cheating, does his 2 years, comes back and he expects everyone to cheer him on, haha yeah right!
the system is a joke and so is Vino, i know he will never get my forgivness but hey thats just my personal feelings towards the matter and i respect anyone elses conflicting view.