thehog
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- Jul 27, 2009
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Does this guy work for Sky now? (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/07/24/1090464904320.html)
But despite Simeoni's outcry, Australian veteran Scott Sunderland believes Armstrong's behaviour wasn't out of the ordinary.
''That sort of stuff does happen, and it has for years. I remember a lot of rivalries between teams in the past,'' Sunderland said.
The 37-year-old Alessio rider admitted that Simeoni's card had been marked by some in the peloton, and that Armstrong was within his rights.
''Filippo Simeoni spoke out and from what I can gather was throwing accusations around, saying things like you can't win anything on the big Tours if you're not taking stuff (drugs), so I think a lot of guys have just taken offence.
''It was stupid for Simeoni to do that, especially if he's still in the peloton and riding the big races.
''Plus, he's (Simeoni) talking about what happened in 1996 when things were a bit out of control. Since then things have really moved on as far as fighting against doping is concerned,'' added Sunderland.
''As far as Lance is concerned, I think he was on an easy day and he wanted to show Simeoni that if he was going to attack he would find it difficult.
But despite Simeoni's outcry, Australian veteran Scott Sunderland believes Armstrong's behaviour wasn't out of the ordinary.
''That sort of stuff does happen, and it has for years. I remember a lot of rivalries between teams in the past,'' Sunderland said.
The 37-year-old Alessio rider admitted that Simeoni's card had been marked by some in the peloton, and that Armstrong was within his rights.
''Filippo Simeoni spoke out and from what I can gather was throwing accusations around, saying things like you can't win anything on the big Tours if you're not taking stuff (drugs), so I think a lot of guys have just taken offence.
''It was stupid for Simeoni to do that, especially if he's still in the peloton and riding the big races.
''Plus, he's (Simeoni) talking about what happened in 1996 when things were a bit out of control. Since then things have really moved on as far as fighting against doping is concerned,'' added Sunderland.
''As far as Lance is concerned, I think he was on an easy day and he wanted to show Simeoni that if he was going to attack he would find it difficult.
- Oct 25, 2010
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Vindication not necessary. Everyone knew why Lance chased after him that day, and Lance even commented on it afterward. He admitted retaliating against Simeoni for having spit in the soup.
I think Landis shows us that not everyone in the peloton stood in unison with Lance. That's the bigger revelation in the transcript. And it also showed that Landis was either politically inept, or that he had brass pelotas.
I think Landis shows us that not everyone in the peloton stood in unison with Lance. That's the bigger revelation in the transcript. And it also showed that Landis was either politically inept, or that he had brass pelotas.
thehog
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- Jul 27, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
“First off, I did not chase Simeoni down,” Armstrong said. “I was simply following his wheel. That is the truth of the matter. I never bridged across to Simeoni. He was in front of me, people were attacking, he accelerated, and I stayed on the wheel. We have footage of the race that will back that up. There was never more than bike length between us. There was no gap closed. There’s a big difference between following wheels and closing a gap.”
Armstrong said he’d naturally expected the peloton to follow, and was surprised to see that the pair had opened a gap when they reached the day’s breakaway a few kilometers later.
“I was completely shocked when I turned around and there was no one on my wheel,” Armstrong said. “I was fully expecting to see the rest of the group, because I was in the [yellow] jersey. But Simeoni pulled for two minutes, and I followed his wheel. That’s racing. He really was a minor story that day. I knew T-Mobile would have to work, and that was good for us, to make your biggest adversaries work to chase down a break. It was two minutes at the biggest gap, and that meant they would have to work hard to chase us down.”
And what about the infamous images of Armstrong flashing Simeoni the international “zip the lips” gesture? Armstrong said that had nothing to do with Simeoni’s comments about Armstrong’s relationship with Ferrari, and everything to do with the Italian rider’s loud protests in the breakaway group.
“People will say that was all about the omerta, the code of silence,” Armstrong said. “That’s nonsense. It’s because Simeoni was yelling at everybody, about everything. We joined the breakaway, and everyone was working except him. He was sitting on. I was working with guys in the group. He would not pull, but he was yelling about everything.”
- Mar 8, 2010
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mewmewmew13 said:
What are you talking about ?
Did you ever have a look at the T-Mobile squads ?
Should they have worked for Lance in yellow ?
Well, when Lance had yellow, USPS had to work.
T-Mobile was all out on Ullrich. They only had Zabel with them who worked on his own or with little support. That was all.
Ullrich even had someone to tie his shoes or clean his sunglasses. He had people for everything, like Lance.
Finally, in the end all the capitanos had to fight for themselfes, except when Klöden and Vino had a good day...or Floyd.
- Nov 7, 2009
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The Simeoni event was a watershed moment. It was as close to black and white as the doping issue in cycling has ever been presented. From that point, one could be a fan of cycling as a sport that best exists in a clean state or a fan of a single rider, Armstrong, who took it upon himself to serve as the emblem and enforcer of the status quo. After witnessing this event, one cannot be a fan of the sport of professional cycling without condemning Armstrong's thuggery.
- Oct 29, 2009
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hrotha said:
Wow, at last. Someone! Thanks hrotha.
I lost count how many Cobblestoned-responses it took, but it seems we are not all on forum auto-pilot here after all. Someone asked a question to the guy, and is flagging a willingness to listen. Wow.
No jesting, no ridiculing, no hidden or overt pot-shots. Thanks.
Between all the sniping, it would be good if Cobblestoned actually made some effort to answer this one, and if others made an effort to actually read what he is saying, rather than pigeon-hole him so you don't have to listen to a differing opinion about what is ALSO hurting the sport, in some people's eyes.
This is not about being right or wrong, we are all speculating about what we think works best, and are willing to drive that point home.
Some of the more (informed and uninformed) opinionated amongst us here are so convinced they are right, they will back differing opinions in corners using much more than just argumentation. If you have a minority view here that is particularly unpopular, and stick your neck out, chances are you will find yourself in the firing line at some point.
Not all posters who find themselves in that spot handle it well, or can resist react by (over) compensating, tit-for-tat.
To some extent people here are contributing, maybe even creating, the Cobblestoneds forum "trolls" they see, and love taking on. I certainly don't always agree with Cobblestoned, but if you see just a troll and nothing more, someone is dismissing more than they should.
I have been following his posts for a while now, and he obviously has a different angle than most. He also comes from a nation where success and doping had a much stronger impact on cycling.
I hope you get your answer hrotha. And I invite folk to actually listen for a change. Don't buy it. Just listen to what is actually being said, rather than distil it to a caricature, or cherry-pick, which appears to be all that some of you are hearing when it has a Cobblestoned picture preceding the post.
It would make a welcome change here, from the usual theatre and grudge matches. And that's a tit-for-tat that's been going on with several here, from both sides. Cobblestoned included.
- Mar 8, 2010
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rhubroma said:
Is Mellow=Simeoni ?
Simeoni also had motives - to save his ****
Everything else were just side-effects.
- Mar 8, 2010
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hrotha said:
I had doubts how this will be interpreted, but hey, I will answer you honestly.
My motive is not to destroy cycling completely. I look out of my window over German landscape, I see ground zero of cycling.
All these German cyclists speaking up, breaking omerta, good efforts to clean up were an enormous "help" for supporting cycling.
Nothing got better, only worse - cycling and Ullrich sacrificed.
Others go on like nothing happened and laugh about cycling, serious dopingtests and whereabouts.
Cycling/ASO started cleaning up - not the right way. Look at all these dopers, people said then.
German TV says cycling does nothing against doping. Then they do, after that German TV says, no we stop it, because there are too many positives.
Cycling was and is burned, but now no one builts it up again. This is the problem.
What I mean:
Stop whining and bashing. Stop destroying cycling. All the whining people and journalists like Kimmage don't help cycling - in the end they harm cycling.
Just complete thinking and you will get it.
Stop denying and destroying cyclings history. It doesn't make any sense.
Enjoy the race. Stand to cycling and its whole past and don't just pick out the raisins. Doesn't matter if you like them or not.
Cycling will never be better than society. Those are dreams, and if they nearly come true they are not honoured.
I don't need these dreams any more.
It doesn't make any sense to fight this fight, when socceros and other sports laugh about us, and people point with fingers on us or follow German TV's logics.
Do some good dopingtests, but don't send the urin of our best rider in last years to a proud German lab to find a fly-sh** of Clen.
Who honours that now ? Is anything better now ?
About the seriousness of the problem:
Whatever we do won't change any numbers - meaning worst case - dead athlets or fallen people, who are the typical homicide-argument.
Many of them were weak personalities who would have tumbled in "real life" anyway.
"Who tumbles here will tumble out there too." - we were told at the army. And this person was right.
That sounds hard but is my opinion.
The short version of all I wrote now:
We and cycling shouldn't exaggerate it.
At some point this is counterproductive.
- Aug 3, 2009
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Cobblestoned said:
So, your answer is do nothing and just accept things as they are because they can't be fixed.
Is that, or is it not, your response tothe question: "Cobblestoned, what would you do to solve the problem of doping in pro cycling?"
I edited your post for brevity. If I cut something out that you feel shouldn't have been then feel free to point it out.
- Oct 25, 2010
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thehog said:
“First off, I did not chase Simeoni down,” Armstrong said. “I was simply following his wheel. That is the truth of the matter. I never bridged across to Simeoni. He was in front of me, people were attacking, he accelerated, and I stayed on the wheel. We have footage of the race that will back that up. There was never more than bike length between us. There was no gap closed. There’s a big difference between following wheels and closing a gap.”
Armstrong said he’d naturally expected the peloton to follow, and was surprised to see that the pair had opened a gap when they reached the day’s breakaway a few kilometers later.
“I was completely shocked when I turned around and there was no one on my wheel,” Armstrong said. “I was fully expecting to see the rest of the group, because I was in the [yellow] jersey. But Simeoni pulled for two minutes, and I followed his wheel. That’s racing. He really was a minor story that day. I knew T-Mobile would have to work, and that was good for us, to make your biggest adversaries work to chase down a break. It was two minutes at the biggest gap, and that meant they would have to work hard to chase us down.”
And what about the infamous images of Armstrong flashing Simeoni the international “zip the lips” gesture? Armstrong said that had nothing to do with Simeoni’s comments about Armstrong’s relationship with Ferrari, and everything to do with the Italian rider’s loud protests in the breakaway group.
“People will say that was all about the omerta, the code of silence,” Armstrong said. “That’s nonsense. It’s because Simeoni was yelling at everybody, about everything. We joined the breakaway, and everyone was working except him. He was sitting on. I was working with guys in the group. He would not pull, but he was yelling about everything.”
That sounds more like the quotes from that very day. I remember him being a lot more direct about his opinions of Simeoni in subsequent interviews. I don't remember people "wondering" if he'd been chased-down as punishment. It was obvious. It was classic "bossism".
I don't want anyone to think that I don't condemn what Armstrong did that day. I most certainly do. I just don't happen to think that Landis sheds any light on the validity of our collective belief of what happened (and why). He just happens to shed light on how he personally reacted to it. He showed that he was not down with being on a team with a thuggish boss in the yellow jersey.
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Would be cool if Ulle wrote a book. With ALL the TRUTH. Really a shocking think. C'mon Ulle! 1+1!!
Cobblestoned said:
Excellent values you defend. Such as terrorising people who tell an unpleasant truth... wow... should I really waste my time to even discuss this further... call one of the biggeast cheaters and liars in sport a "good guy"...
check out again the absolutely poor Simeoni chasedown in 2004... is there more to say about LA and his sikkkk mind?
- Jul 9, 2009
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Cobblestoned said:
I will interpret it honestly.
Omerta good.
Speaking out for cleaning up doping in cycling bad.
Conclusion FAIL.
Also I would have bet that this is what you would have come out with.
Thanks for playing.
- Oct 1, 2010
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thehog said:
“First off, I did not chase Simeoni down,” Armstrong said. “I was simply following his wheel. That is the truth of the matter. I never bridged across to Simeoni. He was in front of me, people were attacking, he accelerated, and I stayed on the wheel. We have footage of the race that will back that up. There was never more than bike length between us. There was no gap closed. There’s a big difference between following wheels and closing a gap.”
Armstrong said he’d naturally expected the peloton to follow, and was surprised to see that the pair had opened a gap when they reached the day’s breakaway a few kilometers later.
“I was completely shocked when I turned around and there was no one on my wheel,” Armstrong said. “I was fully expecting to see the rest of the group, because I was in the [yellow] jersey. But Simeoni pulled for two minutes, and I followed his wheel. That’s racing. He really was a minor story that day. I knew T-Mobile would have to work, and that was good for us, to make your biggest adversaries work to chase down a break. It was two minutes at the biggest gap, and that meant they would have to work hard to chase us down.”
And what about the infamous images of Armstrong flashing Simeoni the international “zip the lips” gesture? Armstrong said that had nothing to do with Simeoni’s comments about Armstrong’s relationship with Ferrari, and everything to do with the Italian rider’s loud protests in the breakaway group.
“People will say that was all about the omerta, the code of silence,” Armstrong said. “That’s nonsense. It’s because Simeoni was yelling at everybody, about everything. We joined the breakaway, and everyone was working except him. He was sitting on. I was working with guys in the group. He would not pull, but he was yelling about everything.”
Cycling News coverage from the stage:
Earlier in the day, a strange incident that will certainly go down in the annals of Tour de France history enlivened Stage 18, when Domina Vacanze rider Filippo Simeoni bridged across to the day's winning break on the first climb of the day after 32km. Suddenly, surprisingly, maillot jaune Lance Armstrong went in pursuit of Simeoni and soon both riders had bridged across to the break together. The other riders in the break were dumbfounded to see the maillot jaune there among them, taking his pulls and participating in the escape. But they soon realized that if Armstrong remained up front, their breakaway was doomed. Cente Garcia asked Armstrong to drop back after the gap reached 2'00 on the chasing peloton, led by a heaving mass of magenta T-Mobile jerseys. Armstrong told Garcia Acosta that he would drop off, but only if Simeoni would do so as well. Reluctantly the Italian agreed to do so and both he and Armstrong spoke after the stage today.
On his way to an unprecedented sixth Tour win, Armstrong's action today is hard to interpret. He explained that "I was protecting the interests of the peloton" to French TV after the stage and continued by saying, "The story of Simeoni is not a fair story...there's a long history there. All (journalists) want to write about is parts of the story. It's a long history...a guy like (Simeoni), all he wants to do is to destroy cycling...and for me, that's not correct. And I when I went back to the group they said 'chapeau'...thank you very much. Because they understand that (cycling) is their job and that they absolutely love it and they're committed to it and don't want somebody within their sport destroying it. So...for me it's no problem to go on the wheel, to follow the wheel."
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=results/stage18
There seems to be a difference in the two accounts of the breakaway from Armstrong. And what does he mean by "I was protecting the interests of the peloton."?
- Mar 8, 2010
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Francois the Postman said:
It always causes trouble here when you are too honest and too open.
Thats a problem.
For all parties.
Some people have to play their usual role and are stubborn.
They are so focused on their "standing" and "loved riders" that they lose the focus.
Overfocused and not really able to find solutions. I never see usefull solutions.
I just see hate, harm and damage.
Dr. Maserati
BANNED
- Jun 19, 2009
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Cobblestoned said:
Wow - you're an Ullrich fan (not an Armstrong fan) and yet you appear to have forgotten how Lance said in his second book that Ullrich did not wait for him when he crashed on Luz Ardiden in 2003?
Maybe Ullrichs subsequent comments were only covered in the English speaking media and no-one mentioned it in Germany.
- Mar 8, 2010
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la.margna said:
I saw an excellent post last week about "what is good ?"
I think no one really answered it.
What is good and correct for who ? Good for me ? Good for you ? Good for someone else ? Good for your money, friends or family ?
Most time, when something was good for someone, it was bad for someone else.
It will always be like that.
If you won a race and feel good - you didn't actually win a race - you kicked many peoples a** and they feel bad.
They hate you, but you feel good anyway. Don't you ?
- Mar 8, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
I got Lance right.
He meant that Ullrich didn't "really" wait till a certain point and that is also what the pictures tell. Lance was right.
Ask Tyler and watch the videos.
Immediately waiting looks different.
Why did Tyler wave ?
I think Ullrich later even said that he hesitated with waiting because it would have been his chance and that it broke his rhythm then.
Finally he waited - that is what counts.
- Aug 9, 2010
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Cobblestoned said:What are you talking about ?
Did you ever have a look at the T-Mobile squads ?
Should they have worked for Lance in yellow ?
Well, when Lance had yellow, USPS had to work.
T-Mobile was all out on Ullrich. They only had Zabel with them who worked on his own or with little support. That was all.
Ullrich even had someone to tie his shoes or clean his sunglasses. He had people for everything, like Lance.
Finally, in the end all the capitanos had to fight for themselfes, except when Klöden and Vino had a good day...or Floyd.
I was and still remain a big fan of Ulle, one of my fave all-time riders. Jan was a star and having someone clean your glasses or wipe your whatever is not what I was commenting about. yes, I do remember well the Tmobile squads. I do remember watching as they rode sometimes with seemingly too many egos and split loyalties, leaving room for errors and missed opportunities to help Jan advance.
Lance was cocooned by his team mates, utterly at his beck and call, riders who would have been ejected if they did anything other than ride in complete service to number one. It was very apparent to anyone cheering for Ulle (as I) that there were numerable times that Tmobile was lacking in cohesiveness or direction with regard to their own 'capitano'. Frustrating to watch but helpful w/r to Lance's 'luck'. This is the point to which I was speaking.
- Feb 20, 2010
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Cobblestoned said:
MarkvW said:
Right, I see your points with regards the likes of Simeoni, Jaksche, Sella and Sinkewitz.
But Bassons? What reforming did he need to do? When did he ever get caught? Enlighten me!
- Mar 8, 2010
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mewmewmew13 said:
It is hard to top perfection, luck + consistency.
Yes, Vino was often too nervous and Klöden too passive and fragile. They could have played these cards more effective, but in the end I think that wouldn't have changed anything in final results.
And like perhaps you too, I was waiting for Lance to bonk, not be fit, or do a mistake and Ulle to win, for many years. Well, it was boring and frustrating after some time but at least I learned to just respect Lance and what this man achieved.
After the hard fought 5th at latest, style of 6th was like an ironfist into our faces and 7th was over before it started.
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