Anyone here in the US watching "LA: the look back" on VS? With hindsight, it is amazing how many of the stage podiums are full of convicted dopers. I am trying to bury my head as the racing is so much more exciting with the rose coloured glasses on.
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Biker77 - We've discussed this several times. Look at any GT over the last 15 years and make a list of the top 25 riders in each race. The percentage of those involved in some form of doping (positive, scandal, etc.) is sobering.
I believe Tafi was one of the riders who spoke out against doping way back in like 1999, and was quickly shunned by the entire sport. I'll let someone else verify.
I'd like to think what you're saying is true Joe, but this seems like an awfully large stone to turn.
A clarification, when I said "Patrick" in my previous post, I meant Sinkewitz.
I believe Tafi was one of the riders who spoke out against doping way back in like 1999, and was quickly shunned by the entire sport. I'll let someone else verify.
I'd like to think what you're saying is true Joe, but this seems like an awfully large stone to turn.
A clarification, when I said "Patrick" in my previous post, I meant Sinkewitz.
I think we should hold an amnesty and have a cut-off date. If you doped and you weren't caught or you confess, nothing happens, but if you test positive from now on, you will never ever race a bike professionally not in this life time or the next. Only if you name names or blow the whistle should you be allowed to race again.
Furlan was the third guy in that Gewiss 1-2-3 in 94.
Sorry Roger, I would like to believe Tafi was clean but he was just another lowly rider until he joined Mapei. Bit of trivia for ya, he actually raced in the US in the long since gone Tour of Americas down in Florida, Puerto Rico in 1990. He was on the Sella Italia team and won a stage I think. Then he was at Carrera during the era when they were working with Conconi but I dont think his name came up in that investigation.
Tafi argued with Pantani & Cipollini about the introducion of CONI healtht tests at the Giro in 99 and he was ostracised, I remember pictures of him crying so maybe he was clean or had a conscience at least.
I also remember Giorgio Squinzi, big boss of Mapei admitting in 1999 that his team Mapei had not always played by the rules but he wanted to change things within his team. Nardello, plonker was on Mapei as well and Squinzi quit because he said he had been beating by the plague of doping so people will have to draw their own conclusions on Mapei.
I also think a Belgian newspaper wrote an article a few years ago called "Lefevre, 30 years of doping" in which they accused him of being involved in doping since he was a pro rider, he sued and won I think. As always in these things, no smoke without fire.
Yeah, Bortolami, from fat unknown pig to World Cup winner in one season, all with the help of Dr.Ferrari. In the same trial as Simeoni, he claimed Ferrari advised then to take Amino acids when there was a red asterik on their training diary, Simeoni said it meant EPO. Who do you believe, Simeoni or the guy who was eventually busted for EPO possession.
Sorry Roger, I would like to believe Tafi was clean but he was just another lowly rider until he joined Mapei. Bit of trivia for ya, he actually raced in the US in the long since gone Tour of Americas down in Florida, Puerto Rico in 1990. He was on the Sella Italia team and won a stage I think. Then he was at Carrera during the era when they were working with Conconi but I dont think his name came up in that investigation.
Tafi argued with Pantani & Cipollini about the introducion of CONI healtht tests at the Giro in 99 and he was ostracised, I remember pictures of him crying so maybe he was clean or had a conscience at least.
I also remember Giorgio Squinzi, big boss of Mapei admitting in 1999 that his team Mapei had not always played by the rules but he wanted to change things within his team. Nardello, plonker was on Mapei as well and Squinzi quit because he said he had been beating by the plague of doping so people will have to draw their own conclusions on Mapei.
I also think a Belgian newspaper wrote an article a few years ago called "Lefevre, 30 years of doping" in which they accused him of being involved in doping since he was a pro rider, he sued and won I think. As always in these things, no smoke without fire.
Yeah, Bortolami, from fat unknown pig to World Cup winner in one season, all with the help of Dr.Ferrari. In the same trial as Simeoni, he claimed Ferrari advised then to take Amino acids when there was a red asterik on their training diary, Simeoni said it meant EPO. Who do you believe, Simeoni or the guy who was eventually busted for EPO possession.
Remember the Quickstep mole? Het Laatste Nieuws did an investigative report on doping at Quickstep right before the 2007 season. An anonymous Quickstep rider was used as a source. Lefevere came up with a plan to uncover the mole. He was going to force every Quickstep rider to file a lawsuit against HLN. His theory was that the mole would be unwilling to do so.
So, if we are all of the opinion that doping is a systematic problem in endurance sports, what do we do? Do we stop watching? I cant`t. Top-level cycling is what I love to watch. It is an escape from the daily grind and my 20mph avg speed on a good day.
It is also why I am so disappointed at the the ongoing doping. I don`t want to feel like an idiot for believing in something. However, I do not want to become so cycnical that I can`t believe in anything.
If it can be proven that an athlete doped intentionally then lifetime bans should be the only answer.
It is also why I am so disappointed at the the ongoing doping. I don`t want to feel like an idiot for believing in something. However, I do not want to become so cycnical that I can`t believe in anything.
If it can be proven that an athlete doped intentionally then lifetime bans should be the only answer.
Thoughtforfood said:
He also through VDB under the bus saying that he and Museauw even searched VDB's room looking for drugs. Hypocrite. He is on the top of my list. Just look at the timeline of his leaving Mapei. Squizni announces that the team is stopping its doping. LeFevre announces he is retiring at the end of the year. Few weeks later he announces that he is leaving early because he wants out of cycling. Few weeks later he forms Domo. Guy is a jerk.
Long live VDB. Cool.
Thoughtforfood said:
I have no idea about Tafi. I suspect that he was dirty at some point. I also remember the fight he had with Cipo and Pantani at the Giro when Mapei announced it was going clean. I like to think that his later years, at least, were clean. He was one of my favorites since he said "I was about to get dropped so I attacked."
Frigo's Napsack said:
I have great respect for Victor David Brenner the designer of the Lincoln penny. I once had a 1909 S VDB in mint condition. It was a really cool coin......have I ever mentioned that I am a dork?
Sup?
anubisza said:
Seems like another timely 'smoking gun'. Will it stir more sentiment to ensure Boonen does not race the tour? Or is WADA stirring the ASO pot again?
LOL, how many 1-2-3 victories has Lefevre presided over? Don't forget the Domo 1-2-3 in that muddy 2001 Paris-Roubaix with Knaven-Museeuw-Vainstains. No systematic doping to see here, we just <all> had a good day!
I don't know if anyone remembers but Mike Creed was writing a blog for VeloNews at the time and he came straight out and said "Domo is doped, you don't win Paris-Roubaix as a team 1-2-3 without being doped." He then went on to say that he'd like to "beat Patrick Lefevre with a bag of door knobs" and shortly after lost that VeloNews blog position, LOL!
I don't know if anyone remembers but Mike Creed was writing a blog for VeloNews at the time and he came straight out and said "Domo is doped, you don't win Paris-Roubaix as a team 1-2-3 without being doped." He then went on to say that he'd like to "beat Patrick Lefevre with a bag of door knobs" and shortly after lost that VeloNews blog position, LOL!
biker77 said:
Don't stop watching, it's still a good sport. Other sports have their own problems, drugs and otherwise. Anyway, if you love the sport it's better to be an informed fan and know how it really works.
Bagster
BANNED
anubisza said:
Yeah and why are they *****ing about the UCI delaying if he provided the statement to WADA in 2007??
Indurain said:
Is your brain atrophic? An abnormally high hematocrit may kill you very quickly, but have you any concept of the long term problems associated with drug abuse? The long term outcome from using some of these medications ( HGH, anabolic steroids, insulin, the list goes on....) can have dire consequences!!!! A cyclists life does NOT end when they retire from competition. These drugs are banned in competition for good reason and should be left for the sick to use as they were intended.
Bagster said:
I read it to mean that WADA had no explanation for its own delay. I could be wrong.
craig1985 said:
Sounds like a good idea, but I am totally against retrospective drug testing. It just opens a huge 'can of worms' that can never be closed! Can you image the claims and counter-claims that would be put forward? "They won and I lost so they must have doped", "I doped and I still lost, so they must have doped better". The only few to know the actual truth would be the cyclists themselves. Maybe we just need to move forward, remember the past for the great racing it produced and make the penalties for doping much more severe!
Frigo's Napsack said:
Well at the 1998 Giro when a lot of the teams were digging in their heels with regards to doping, Tafi said "that they can test me anytime anywhere", and the next day, led by Pantani, he felt the full force of omarta and was found at the back of the bunch in tears and on the verge of abandoning, only his team mates and his DS talked him out of it.
I could be wrong but I don't think you would subject yourself to all sorts of abuse if you had something to hide.
craig1985 said:
I have the 2002 Tour of Flanders on DVD - Tafi wins it after attacking like 1,000 times in the last 40 Km. Even back in 2002 when I first watched the thing I was like "I don't know about that..." That being said, it simply could have been a Hell of a day, but it really is a majorly superhuman performance.
Plenty of informative posts, but do you know whats missing?
At the risk of making another negative post, I'm wondering where all the righteous indignation is?
Where's the, "He's a lying, cheating doper, who's word cannot be trusted..." "where's the evidence, proof?" posts that permeate the Jorge Jaksche thread?
Oh wait, I see, this is all about Quick Step.
Yes. The issue of tackling doping, is like trying to cut down a tree.
Authorities are regularly cutting a few small branches off the top, but appear either unaware, or more likely, reluctant, to go after the root system.
However, when you add up the incidents that have taken place, during the past 5 years, the pattern becomes clear.
The doping histories of many teams, such as Telekom/T Mobile, Liberty Seguros, Phonak, Saunier Duval, are all established.
Add Rabobank's proported practices to Quick Step and Katusha/Gerolsteiner's brace apiece and there should be little doubt.
I think maybe some teams themselves picked up apon this change of focus, or maybe it was a change of attitude of sponsors and so, the team "medical monitoring programme" was born.
Further insurance against the damaging effect of multiple positives.
Any lasting change, if it is to come, must come from a new breed of rider, even more vocal than the ones who now speak out.
The must be prepared to risk all, tackling Omerta, at team level, from within.
Only then, will we see the so desperately needed change of "old guard" personel, take place. Thus rooting out the source of this sport's disease.
At the risk of making another negative post, I'm wondering where all the righteous indignation is?
Where's the, "He's a lying, cheating doper, who's word cannot be trusted..." "where's the evidence, proof?" posts that permeate the Jorge Jaksche thread?
Oh wait, I see, this is all about Quick Step.
Yes. The issue of tackling doping, is like trying to cut down a tree.
Authorities are regularly cutting a few small branches off the top, but appear either unaware, or more likely, reluctant, to go after the root system.
However, when you add up the incidents that have taken place, during the past 5 years, the pattern becomes clear.
The doping histories of many teams, such as Telekom/T Mobile, Liberty Seguros, Phonak, Saunier Duval, are all established.
Add Rabobank's proported practices to Quick Step and Katusha/Gerolsteiner's brace apiece and there should be little doubt.
I think maybe some teams themselves picked up apon this change of focus, or maybe it was a change of attitude of sponsors and so, the team "medical monitoring programme" was born.
Further insurance against the damaging effect of multiple positives.
Any lasting change, if it is to come, must come from a new breed of rider, even more vocal than the ones who now speak out.
The must be prepared to risk all, tackling Omerta, at team level, from within.
Only then, will we see the so desperately needed change of "old guard" personel, take place. Thus rooting out the source of this sport's disease.
BikeCentric said:
Yea it's the crazy performances like that, that in hindsight make us wonder why we weren't more suspicious!
Great post pmcg76. Craig and Mellow too. Thanks for the info.
You keep doing what we're doing. Get informed, speak out. Write to authorities, and outlets of information (like CN, VN, other mags). I've written to the UCI, WADA, USADA, letters to editors. I've even written to sponsors encouraging them in kind, but strong words that I cannot support their product if the teams they sponsor work with anyone connected to doping (a tricky subject. Ask and I'll explain more). Go to races, support riders that speak out against doping. Try talking to riders and team management at races. Try walking up to them and gently encouraging them to stay clean and help clean up the sport and that you'll support them even if they don't win.
There are also organizations you can join, like BikePure. Myles or Andy used to post on here, but haven't been here in a while. I imagine they're out there fighting the good fight and setting a good example for us to follow.
Fine example Mr. Ball has set.
I'm not trying to say doping is okay. It's not. Just be factual. Most people think steroids and EPO will kill you over time, when it's highly unlikely to have any long term effect at all unless you're completely jacked for long periods of time. However -
The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step my son.biker77 said:
You keep doing what we're doing. Get informed, speak out. Write to authorities, and outlets of information (like CN, VN, other mags). I've written to the UCI, WADA, USADA, letters to editors. I've even written to sponsors encouraging them in kind, but strong words that I cannot support their product if the teams they sponsor work with anyone connected to doping (a tricky subject. Ask and I'll explain more). Go to races, support riders that speak out against doping. Try talking to riders and team management at races. Try walking up to them and gently encouraging them to stay clean and help clean up the sport and that you'll support them even if they don't win.
There are also organizations you can join, like BikePure. Myles or Andy used to post on here, but haven't been here in a while. I imagine they're out there fighting the good fight and setting a good example for us to follow.
Sure, the guy that got fired by Rock this year because of "poor performance", after one race.BikeCentric said:
Fine example Mr. Ball has set.
IGF-1, yes. HGH, possibly. Cortisone, probably. Steroids, you'd have to use a lot, over a long period of time. EPO, long term very unlikely. Blood doping, potential for contamination and clotting short term. Long term, your own blood, almost none. Someone else's, yes. Repoxygen, possible, unknown? Stem-cell gene doping, probably, unknown.atolfree said:
I'm not trying to say doping is okay. It's not. Just be factual. Most people think steroids and EPO will kill you over time, when it's highly unlikely to have any long term effect at all unless you're completely jacked for long periods of time. However -
You and I are in complete 1000% agreement here. I couldn't have said it better myself. This is something that isn't brought up enough, and I tip my helmet to you for reminding us of it.
Mellow Velo said:
Well I suppose the next logical question would be how money much did Jaksche, Sinkewitz, and Kohl all make out of their respective interviews. Throw huge wads of euros in front of anybodies face and the thruth gets twisted a little bit. Especially to an un-employed cyclist. My own personal opinion is that I don't have any really reason to think the aforementioned three are not telling the thruth, as Jaksche was proven correct when Vino tested positive in 2007.
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