Sky/Froome Talk Only (No Way Sky Are Cleans?)

[Netserk]

Rogers has/had more talent than Riis.

Every pro has talent ofc, otherwise they wouldn't be pro, but compared to other pros, both Froome and Riis would be outside top-100.

 

[The Hitch]

Yeah, really. You're short on cogent argument.
.

No im not. There was no long argument to my post. It was very simple.

The fact that you think froome isnt the best rider on sky doesnt mean anything and its not an argument.

Its just a declaration of a belief.

And therefore it says more about you than it does about froome, cos you havent outlined why you think froome aint all that, you just declared that its what you believe.

So you are telling us more about yourself than about froome.

Which is what i wrote.

And i dont see what your problem is with that

 

[del1962]

HAve any current riders got 60% hct?

 

[Pentacycle]

Rogers has/had more talent than Riis.

Every pro has talent ofc, otherwise they wouldn't be pro, but compared to other pros, both Froome and Riis would be outside top-100.

Agreed, Rogers is a better rider than Riis. I probably won't mention Froome's talent anymore though in other posts, as long as Brailsfod doesn't clear up those numbers.

Like you say, everyone who turns pro has a lot of talent, because even amateurs and U23 track riders I train with drop talentless riders like me on the flat straightaway. It's a tough world out there. But to some extent talent can show at an unpredictable age, it's just very hard to guage the moment a rider has reached full potential, all from the outside, not having the knowledge, just what's on the internet or on tv. It's not that simple for each rider to just follow a paved road to the top, and that's what I was trying to point out in some of my previous comments last week.

Whether Froome is really worthy of reaching the top, I don't know. I guess if he isn't, we'll have to watch the ending of this in 20 years, on a popular TV show, after having already erased some high-profile results.

 

[The Hitch]

Whether Froome is really worthy of reaching the top, I don't know. I guess if he isn't, we'll have to watch the ending of this in 20 years, on a popular TV show, after having already erased some high-profile results.

This has been posted a million times before, but ill say it again. Not all dopers end up getting disgraced. Loads of them end up untouched by major scandals with their results and reputations still in tact.

 

[IndianCyclist]

This has been posted a million times before, but ill say it again. Not all dopers end up getting disgraced. Loads of them end up untouched by major scandals with their results and reputations still in tact.

All they have to do is keep their secrets limited to few people and make sure they dont abuse those people and keep them happy with incentives.

 

[Pentacycle]

This has been posted a million times before, but ill say it again. Not all dopers end up getting disgraced. Loads of them end up untouched by major scandals with their results and reputations still in tact.

That's a major problem indeed, some riders just weren't entertaining enough, they had to face the consequences. It depends on certain people's agendas. Like Libertine was saying a few pages before, the way a doper acted in and around the peloton largely influences the way he's treated when caught/having confessed.

If Froome wins lots of TdF's in the future, it'll sure be interesting what scenario he ends up with, if it turns out he cheated.

 

[MarkvW]

Wiggins introduces his children to the doping debate.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/sport/cycling/article1251540.ece

Wiggins' children are proof that he isn't a doper?!?

 

[webvan]

All they have to do is keep their secrets limited to few people and make sure they dont abuse those people and keep them happy with incentives.

Yeah, that or not be dopers in the first place...been repeated a million times but you can't prove a negative, so how do you prove you don't dope? Get beaten by Nibali in T-A not enough apparently?

 

[The Hitch]

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/sport/cycling/article1251540.ece

Wiggins' children are proof that he isn't a doper?!?

The problem those who deny anyone the right to question Sky don't grasp, is that at the moment the entire narrative is with Sky. They can say what they want. They can claim to be open and transparent. They can claim to only hire clean staff. They can claim to be the ones who invented the epo test, if they want and the media takes what they say at face value, because your not allowed to question anyone until they fail a test. And anyone who points out that their narrative is full of holes and lies, immediately opens themselves up to charges of slander and conspiracy theory.

 

[armchairclimber]

No im not. There was no long argument to my post. It was very simple.

The fact that you think froome isnt the best rider on sky doesnt mean anything and its not an argument.

Its just a declaration of a belief.

And therefore it says more about you than it does about froome, cos you havent outlined why you think froome aint all that, you just declared that its what you believe.

So you are telling us more about yourself than about froome.

Which is what i wrote.

And i dont see what your problem is with that

What I was referring to was your lack of cogent argument to the contrary...ie. that Froome IS head and shoulders above everyone else in the peloton. I did counter, earlier in the thread, that Froome has been beaten by Nibali already this season. I could also have pointed out that he was hardly "head and shoulders" above Contador in Oman. Better? Maybe.
As Froome has yet to win a GT, whereas Wiggins has, I'd be interested to know how you come to the conclusion that he is head and shoulders above his team-mate.

Come on Hitch.

 

[armchairclimber]

Oh, and please do question SKY. I hope Kimmage gets into them and I hope that Walsh is as observant and awkward as he can be.

The questioning of Leinders' hiring ...yep, absolutely.
Going down the route of "I've seen all this before," is lame.

 

[The Hitch]

What I was referring to was your lack of cogent argument to the contrary...ie. that Froome IS head and shoulders above everyone else in the peloton. I did counter, earlier in the thread, that Froome has been beaten by Nibali already this season. I could also have pointed out that he was hardly "head and shoulders" above Contador in Oman. Better? Maybe.
As Froome has yet to win a GT, whereas Wiggins has, I'd be interested to know how you come to the conclusion that he is head and shoulders above his team-mate.

Come on Hitch.

Wiggins beat Froome at the 2012 tour because froome was not allowed to beat Wiggins. There are some pretty famous clips of Froome dropping wiggins and being ordered to drop back. To use that gt as an example of Froome being worse than wiggins is ridiculous. Plenty of people said during that Tour and after it that froome was clearly stronger than wiggins, and that was his first tour de france since he transformed. Which may or may not have been the case but you cant take a race where the finishing positions of the 2 riders relative to eachother are prearranged, and use that as evidence that the rider who was ordered to finish behind his teammate, is worse.


As for Nibali, strange how you compare wiggins and froome based on the 2012 Tour but when it comes to comparing froome and nibali you refuse to use the 2012 Tour and instead rely on a 1 week race.

Nibali beat Froome by a handful of seconds in tirreno, which was for Nibali a major goal, and he still lost to froome on both the mtf and the tt.

In the gts on the other hand Froome beat Nibali by minutes in both the 2011 Vuelta and the 2012 Tour and thats despite the fact that he was working as a domestique in both editionbs.

You also use oman strangely, to compare froome to contador. Nibali was also in Oman. He got smashed by froome.

But as i said, i dont know what nibali is doing here. Hes always been 2 or 3 levels below the top guys in the mountains. And the last 2 gts theyve faced eachother froome has demonstrated that he is heads and shoulders above Nibali in both the climbs and the tts.

 

[del1962]

I'm asking you to name which riders I should compare to Riis.

Any rider with 60% hct.

 

[armchairclimber]

Wiggins beat Froome at the 2012 tour because froome was not allowed to beat Wiggins. There are some pretty famous clips of Froome dropping wiggins and being ordered to drop back. To use that gt as an example of Froome being worse than wiggins is ridiculous. Plenty of people said during that Tour and after it that froome was clearly stronger than wiggins, and that was his first tour de france since he transformed. Which may or may not have been the case but you cant take a race where the finishing positions of the 2 riders relative to eachother are prearranged, and use that as evidence that the rider who was ordered to finish behind his teammate, is worse.


As for Nibali, strange how you compare wiggins and froome based on the 2012 Tour but when it comes to comparing froome and nibali you refuse to use the 2012 Tour and instead rely on a 1 week race.

Nibali beat Froome by a handful of seconds in tirreno, which was for Nibali a major goal, and he still lost to froome on both the mtf and the tt.

In the gts on the other hand Froome beat Nibali by minutes in both the 2011 Vuelta and the 2012 Tour and thats despite the fact that he was working as a domestique in both editionbs.

You also use oman strangely, to compare froome to contador. Nibali was also in Oman. He got smashed by froome.

But as i said, i dont know what nibali is doing here. Hes always been 2 or 3 levels below the top guys in the mountains. And the last 2 gts theyve faced eachother froome has demonstrated that he is heads and shoulders above Nibali in both the climbs and the tts.

Better.

I concede that Nibali probably isn't as good...but I don't buy that this is by 2 or 3 levels. Are we only supposed to count certain races...ie. the ones that fit your theory?

Regarding Froome on the TDF last year, he got 20 metres or so before being called back. He was showboating...sending a message. There is nothing to say that he would have made a move stick and certainly no evidence that he would have taken enough time out of Wiggins to win the GC. It is a legitimate viewpoint to have though...only time will tell.

What about Contador. Is Froome head and shoulders above Contador? I'm not convinced that we've seen Contador at his best yet this year.

 

[BroDeal]

In case people missed it in the fitness forum. Cooling down is pretty much worthless unless you are one of those guys who gets dizzy when he suddenly stops exercising.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/...fb-nytimes&WT.z_sma=HL_DWH_20130425:confused:

 

[The Hitch]

Better.

I concede that Nibali probably isn't as good...but I don't buy that this is by 2 or 3 levels. Are we only supposed to count certain races...ie. the ones that fit your theory?

Regarding Froome on the TDF last year, he got 20 metres or so before being called back. He was showboating...sending a message. There is nothing to say that he would have made a move stick and certainly no evidence that he would have taken enough time out of Wiggins to win the GC. It is a legitimate viewpoint to have though...only time will tell.

What about Contador. Is Froome head and shoulders above Contador? I'm not convinced that we've seen Contador at his best yet this year.

Contador is the one rider who might be better than froome. At the moment this season hes been dog**** so its looking like froome is better. But once he gets his head and everything together contador can challenge froome.

Nibali on the other hand, lost 6 minutes to Contador at the 2011 Giro when it was billed as the Contador vs Nibali show, and Contador was only half going for it. He lost 6 minutes to Wiggins at the tour last year.

I think that shows pretty clearly Nibali never was capable of going with the best.

 

[armchairclimber]

Contador is the one rider who might be better than froome. At the moment this season hes been dog**** so its looking like froome is better. But once he gets his head and everything together contador can challenge froome.

Nibali on the other hand, lost 6 minutes to Contador at the 2011 Giro when it was billed as the Contador vs Nibali show, and Contador was only half going for it. He lost 6 minutes to Wiggins at the tour last year.

I think that shows pretty clearly Nibali never was capable of going with the best.

It's an interesting form-line though.
Wiggins, Contador and Froome all look as though they are in the same ball park. When they meet, the racing should be good and the result down to current form, parcourse and strength of support team. I hope that Contador is not in terminal decline. I want to see them all battling.

 

[martinvickers]

This has been posted a million times before, but ill say it again. Not all dopers end up getting disgraced. Loads of them end up untouched by major scandals with their results and reputations still in tact.

Really?

I can see how that's a comfortable statement to make but, really, LOADS of them NO scandals?

We have definitive proof that Mercx doped, Kelly doped, Acquetil, Armstrong, Landis, Ullrich, Riis, Pantani, Indurain, Delgado, Contador, Heras. We have close as damn it proof (eye witness testiony) on Roche. Fignon and Hinault both admitted, if memory serves to uses of chemicals ("hormone rebalancing?"). Coppi openly admitted it. And that is purely off the top of my head, no google, no foul.

Take a look at the top ten list for the tour the last ten years - the vast majority have either pinged, confessed or been explicitly accused by eye witnesses.

The number of riders who have appeared in that top 10 more than once and not had a specific allegation is tiny, and even some of those are damned here for their 'aquaintances' (among them Evans, Wiggins and perhaps most of all Sastre).

Lemond alone seems to be accepted as a clean rider, in a clean team, with a number of 'clean' people round him.

But you cannot sensibly, I suggest hold two opposing views at one and the same time - that most of the peleton were clearly tainted, and Loads got away without taint. The former is incompatible with the latter.

 

[burning]

The best thing Nibali has ever done in his career was 2010 Giro (I think he could have won the Giro if he left Basso at Mortirolo)

I think he's just a bit worse than these days, maybe he's been more careful with doping since 2010 Giro as he's on spotlight since then

 

[The Hitch]

It's an interesting form-line though.
Wiggins, Contador and Froome all look as though they are in the same ball park. When they meet, the racing should be good and the result down to current form, parcourse and strength of support team. I hope that Contador is not in terminal decline. I want to see them all battling.

Wiggins is not in the same league as Contador and Froome.

 

[martinvickers]

It's an interesting form-line though.
Wiggins, Contador and Froome all look as though they are in the same ball park. When they meet, the racing should be good and the result down to current form, parcourse and strength of support team. I hope that Contador is not in terminal decline. I want to see them all battling.

Not sure I quite agree. Contador and Froome are thoroughbreds, read to explode on the mountains. how they got to be thoroughbreds is another matter, but styalistically, it's what they are. Mountaineers with strong TTs. Nibali is I'd argue 1 level, not two or three, 1 level below them - he can't match them in a TT, and while he has the 'twitch' to leap, he can't pull away uphill like them. He is, of course, a demon on the downhill, and that I suspect is his joker. Whether it would be enough we won't get to see.

None of the three of them can touch Berti pre-ban

Wiggins is no goat, and he ain't ever going to be. What he is is, as plenty have said, a Diesel; but a hell of a deisel. I can't see how he beats Froome on current form for the Tour. And I'd be surprised if he hangs with Contador.

The wild card is Quintana. We know Purito can ride vertically when called upon, but he has not the consistency. Quintana, on the other hand looks to be the breakout of the year. That said, his Pais Vasco was incredibly impressive, but it was v Porte and Henao. We'll ahve to see against the wolves.

 

[armchairclimber]

Wiggins is not in the same league as Contador and Froome.

Hotch's pinion, not fact.

Wiggins, at least, is clean.

 

[taiwan]

Any rider with 60% hct.

Quite.

........

 

[airstream]

Wiggins is not in the same league as Contador and Froome.

We don't know. Many people thought that Froome wasn't much stronger than Wiggins on the climbs in the Tour. So it is possible.