Sky/Froome Talk Only (No Way Sky Are Cleans?)

[JimmyFingers]

Thats how good he is.

Someone on the Badzhilla thread was saying that it doesn't eat red blood cells. Only white.

So more BS on that front.

Ooh, someone said it on an internet forum? You can take it to the bank then, even better than a Wikipedia entry. Thank god for someone.

 

[Ferminal]

I like how they keep menioning that Badzilla is the opposite of EPO.

Dawg, the first rider in the world that does reverse doping.

Like EPO, it also beats blood tests.

 

[thehog]

Ooh, someone said it on an internet forum? You can take it to the bank then, even better than a Wikipedia entry. Thank god for someone.

The internet is a wonderful source of information. Used by Doctors, lawyers, researches, scientists, teachers, professors, students, politicians etc.

The internet is much more relevant and update to a reference book researched and written several months/years previous.

Are you suggesting the Internet is worthless? That the 2 billion users and 1.5 billion web pages are all wrong?

 

[The Hitch]

Ooh, someone said it on an internet forum? You can take it to the bank then, even better than a Wikipedia entry. Thank god for someone.

A lot of the people that have posted on Bilharzia here have given quite thorough explanations about their background. Also many were actually sourced with links or even there was a scanned copy of the Prazanquitil (biltricide) prescription.

The internet "expert opinions" did not come from the hog or sniper or Dear Wiggo or me, ferminal, hrotha, or anyone who has participated in these threads but from posters with small post counts totally unsullied by the whole Froome debate.

One claimed his wife was a researcher in Canada, another said he worked in clinic's in Australia and one said he came across the disease while doing charity work in Africa. They, as I point out above, gave sources to some of their claims and their arguments have been open to challenge.

And some of those posters have been members since 2009, so you can't say it was just the hog posting under new accounts.


If you choose to dismiss them fine, but I hope in that case you take very seriously the comments from Tropical disease expert Dr. Wolf Groth, made on German Radio here http://www.dradio.de/dlf/sendungen/sport/2185294/ that he doesn't understand how Froome can still have Bilharzia 2 and a half years after starting treatment for it, as the longest he's ever heard of the treatment lasting has been 2 weeks.

 

[JimmyFingers]

No you're right of course, we must take every post of this forum posted by someone very seriously indeed. Unless we disagree with it. My bad.

 

[thehog]

No you're right of course, we must take every post of this forum posted by someone very seriously indeed. Unless we disagree with it. My bad.

Perhaps spend some time reading up before commenting. There is no substitute for being informed.

If you have a counter opinion, we're all ears.

Table .4 . Full blood count, and density of parasitaemia.

All parameters except red blood cells count were affected by density of parasitemia

The link to from the study is here: http://www.iiste.org/Journals/index.php/JBAH/article/download/6266/6393

One thing immediately stands out and that is that this study seems to show that bilharzia had no effect on RBC's.In fact the RBC's in the infected subject are higher than the control subject whilst other parameters are lower ?

Have we not been told that this is a "red blood cell munching" disease ?

 

[LaFlorecita]

No you're right of course, we must take every post of this forum posted by someone very seriously indeed. Unless we disagree with it. My bad.

That was not what Hitch said of course

 

[JimmyFingers]

Actually it was, really.

 

[The Hitch]

Actually it was, really

No it wasn't.

Clear as night and day.

we must take every post of this forum posted by someone very seriously indeed

I did not say we must take every post seriously. I clearly qualified that these particular people should be taken seriously because they have provided sources.

many were actually sourced with links or even there was a scanned copy of the Prazanquitil (biltricide) prescription.

Which is the exact opposite of what you claim I said - that everyone on the forum should be taken seriously.

And I then said this

If you choose to dismiss them fine

Its there for everyone to see. You are blatantly trolling. I wrote the exact opposite of what you claim I wrote and anyone who can read can see that.

 

[The Hitch]

Actually it was, really

No it wasn't.

Clear as night and day.

we must take every post of this forum posted by someone very seriously indeed

I did not say we must take every post seriously. I clearly qualified that these particular people should be taken seriously because they have provided sources.

many were actually sourced with links or even there was a scanned copy of the Prazanquitil (biltricide) prescription.

Which is the exact opposite of what you claim I said - that everyone on the forum should be taken seriously.

And I then said this

If you choose to dismiss them fine

Its there for everyone to see. You are blatantly trolling. I wrote the exact opposite of what you claim I wrote and anyone who can read can see that.
_________________



Now that Jimmy has started trolling me, lets take the gloves off and start hitting that major target he has left open.

I notice how Jimmy, responding to my lenghty post, conveniently ignores what I wrote about Dr. Groth.

He has spent over a year preaching that he will take evidence seriously if it emerges, that we can't be trusted because we aren't experts but if he sees an expert opinion, he will take it.

He has spent today once again repeating this exact same line, telling us he doesn't trust internet users.

So i give him an expert opinion, not from an internet user but an expert, and link it. Ill link it again for you jimmy, just in case you missed it the first time round

Here you go.

http://www.dradio.de/dlf/sendungen/sport/2185294/

Dr. Groth, a verified expert on a verified Radio network says he finds Froome's Bilharzia very strange.

Just to be clear, that's not an internet loser, or bone idle ****er or however you call them these days, that's an actual, Tropical diseases expert

You have any opinion on this jimmy? You wanted an expert opinion, well now i give it to you, what do you have to say?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Whatever. I'm sure if someone claims to be someone, or said their wife did something or other and offered links to 'some' sources that back up their claims (which are your words) then if you agree with them you'll be willing to take that as gospel.

I'm also sure that if someone claimed to someone and offered links to back up some of their claims and you didn't agree with them you'd be busy googling as much as you could to undermine what they are saying.

You call it trolling I'd say it was a blast of reality. Hog originally said 'Someone on the Badzhilla thread was saying that it doesn't eat red blood cells. Only white.

So more BS on that front.'

So took at internet comment by someone anonymous and used it to call BS on any counter claim about the effects from the Froome camp. If you don't think a statement like that needs to be called on, which obviously you don't, since you went into bat for him, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Personally I would say if you're going to base your arguments by claims people posting on an anonymous internet cycling forum make then it's castle made of sand.

And we know what happens to those.

Look I know this place has a problem with facts and evidence and due process and the like, preferring instead the lynch 'em first then ask questions later approach but it the real world it doesn't that way.

With that I'll take my leave. You lot may well be right about Froome and the whole bally lot of them. But the whole shooting match has become deathly dull. The truth will out, of that I am sure.

 

[the sceptic]

 

[DirtyWorks]

http://www.dradio.de/dlf/sendungen/sport/2185294/

Dr. Groth, a verified expert on a verified Radio network says he finds Froome's Bilharzia very strange.

Just to be clear, that's not an internet loser, or bone idle ****er or however you call them these days, that's an actual, Tropical diseases expert

You have any opinion on this jimmy? You wanted an expert opinion, well now i give it to you, what do you have to say?

I see where you made your mistake. Dr. Groth is worthy of doubt because he doesn't fit into the "Sky is probably clean-ish" world view.

If you believe that Froome/Porte/Wiggo grand tour dominance was always present, then any doubts about Badzilla excuses must be dismissed. Maybe give it a personal attack like, "He's not an expert in Badzilla AND sports physiology!" "How many cyclists does he treat?" "He doesn't know Froome's case in detail."

It's all ridiculous, but if the point is to hold onto the notion that Sky's GT squad isn't doping at all costs, then personal attacks are fair game. Exactly as they were during Armstrong's fraud.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Whatever. I'm sure if someone claims to be someone, or said their wife did something or other and offered links to 'some' sources that back up their claims (which are your words) then if you agree with them you'll be willing to take that as gospel.

I'm also sure that if someone claimed to someone and offered links to back up some of their claims and you didn't agree with them you'd be busy googling as much as you could to undermine what they are saying.

You call it trolling I'd say it was a blast of reality. Hog originally said 'Someone on the Badzhilla thread was saying that it doesn't eat red blood cells. Only white.

So more BS on that front.'

So took at internet comment by someone anonymous and used it to call BS on any counter claim about the effects from the Froome camp. If you don't think a statement like that needs to be called on, which obviously you don't, since you went into bat for him, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Personally I would say if you're going to base your arguments by claims people posting on an anonymous internet cycling forum make then it's castle made of sand.

And we know what happens to those.

Look I know this place has a problem with facts and evidence and due process and the like, preferring instead the lynch 'em first then ask questions later approach but it the real world it doesn't that way.

With that I'll take my leave. You lot may well be right about Froome and the whole bally lot of them. But the whole shooting match has become deathly dull. The truth will out, of that I am sure.

Please don't go

Gotta tell you the 80's really enjoyed seriously good music after two decades of reckless dopers trying all kinds of instruments.

 

[caryopsis]

Whatever. I'm sure if someone claims to be someone, or said their wife did something or other and offered links to 'some' sources that back up their claims (which are your words) then if you agree with them you'll be willing to take that as gospel.

I'm also sure that if someone claimed to someone and offered links to back up some of their claims and you didn't agree with them you'd be busy googling as much as you could to undermine what they are saying.

You call it trolling I'd say it was a blast of reality. Hog originally said 'Someone on the Badzhilla thread was saying that it doesn't eat red blood cells. Only white.

So more BS on that front.'

So took at internet comment by someone anonymous and used it to call BS on any counter claim about the effects from the Froome camp. If you don't think a statement like that needs to be called on, which obviously you don't, since you went into bat for him, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Personally I would say if you're going to base your arguments by claims people posting on an anonymous internet cycling forum make then it's castle made of sand.

And we know what happens to those.

Look I know this place has a problem with facts and evidence and due process and the like, preferring instead the lynch 'em first then ask questions later approach but it the real world it doesn't that way.

With that I'll take my leave. You lot may well be right about Froome and the whole bally lot of them. But the whole shooting match has become deathly dull. The truth will out, of that I am sure.

Goalposts, meet your new neighbors.

 

[thehog]

Its there for everyone to see. You are blatantly trolling. I wrote the exact opposite of what you claim I wrote and anyone who can read can see that.

I don’t think Jimmy is trolling. He’s just a little simple. He’s doesn’t think very much.

I think better if he was at a pro-Sky forum where they talk endlessly about marginal gains and how their science beats everyone else’s science.

I think it relation to the Skybots I just wished they would inform themselves better and at least read the counter arguments.

It’s like its 2002 all over again.

 

[Hawkwood]

... I notice how Jimmy, responding to my lenghty post, conveniently ignores what I wrote about Dr. Groth.

Here you go.

http://www.dradio.de/dlf/sendungen/sport/2185294/

Dr. Groth, a verified expert on a verified Radio network says he finds Froome's Bilharzia very strange.

Just to be clear, that's not an internet loser, or bone idle ****er or however you call them these days, that's an actual, Tropical diseases expert

You have any opinion on this jimmy? You wanted an expert opinion, well now i give it to you, what do you have to say?

Except Dr Wolf Groth has an odd profile, the only doctor I can find of that name appears to be a general practitioner. A search of Berliner Centrum für Reise- und Tropenmedizin's website does not find him. I note that the Centrum does appear to give vaccinations, so maybe he did that. Searching on his name pulls up no academic papers whatsoever. I work in academia and doing a quick search on a colleague, who is an expert on medical statistics, found 50 plus academic papers. It would be very unusual for a medical expert to have no papers after his or her name. Obviously this was not an exhaustive search, and I would be interested if others do have links to his papers.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Whatever.

Call it a belief and do not pretend there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

It's okay to believe. People believe in Gods of all kinds too. There is nothing wrong with believing Sky's grand tour squad is clean-ish. It's the rest of the junk that followed, including the personal attacks that just pollute the thread.

We've established you believe and no one is changing that. Whenl Froome, well probably Wiggo, gets on a chat show special and confesses doping after the statute of limitations run out then I guess you'll have to rework the beliefs.

 

[Eshnar]

How long can you guys last before going personal?

Let's see.

From now on, the next one might win a vacation.

 

[thehog]

Except Dr Wolf Groth has an odd profile, the only doctor I can find of that name appears to be a general practitioner. A search of Berliner Centrum für Reise- und Tropenmedizin's website does not find him. I note that the Centrum does appear to give vaccinations, so maybe he did that. Searching on his name pulls up no academic papers whatsoever. I work in academia and doing a quick search on a colleague, who is an expert on medical statistics, found 50 plus academic papers. It would be very unusual for a medical expert to have no papers after his or her name. Obviously this was not an exhaustive search, and I would be interested if others do have links to his papers.

Well the "Institute of Tropical Medicine and International Health" - "Centrum für Reise- und Tropenmedizin"

Is the vastly similar to the place that treated Froome in Kenya.

http://www.cttm-kenya.com/

You're right.

It is odd... not.

 

[red_flanders]

Thats how good he is.

Someone on the Badzhilla thread was saying that it doesn't eat red blood cells. Only white.

So more BS on that front.

That's pretty easily debunked. The parasites do feed on RBC's.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sch...7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=119&ie=UTF-8

Searching the Google also will tell you however that one treatment is all that is needed in most cases, and for those who need further treatment it happens in the 6 months after the first. Well and easily managed with medical attention.

The Google does not seem to address why Froome needs to keep getting treatment or why he can't seem to recall when he got it or was treated for it with any consistency. The Google has limitations.

 

[Hawkwood]

Well the "Institute of Tropical Medicine and International Health" - "Centrum für Reise- und Tropenmedizin"

Is the vastly similar to the place that treated Froome in Kenya.

http://www.cttm-kenya.com/

You're right.

It is odd... not.

The only medical link I can find for Dr Groth shows that he is up to date with his training, that he is not a specialist in tropical medicine, and that he is based in Kiel. So very odd.

 

[thehog]

That's pretty easily debunked. The parasites do feed on RBC's.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sch...7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=119&ie=UTF-8

Searching the Google also will tell you however that one treatment is all that is needed in most cases, and for those who need further treatment it happens in the 6 months after the first. Well and easily managed with medical attention.

The Google does not seem to address why Froome needs to keep getting treatment or why he can't seem to recall when he got it or was treated for it with any consistency. The Google has limitations.

Thanks. But most of those articles are from 1973.

The alternate link was from 2013.

I won't profess to be an expert on the matter.

Ms. Cound was on Velorooms for a little trying to explain it all and left.

 

[the sceptic]

The only medical link I can find for Dr Groth shows that he is up to date with his training, that he is not a specialist in tropical medicine, and that he is based in Kiel. So very odd.

So youre saying he is lying and making up the stuff about Badzilla?

Its too bad sky didnt hire you as a google specialist earlier, maybe the whole Leinders fiasco could have been avoided.

 

[thehog]

The only medical link I can find for Dr Groth shows that he is up to date with his training, that he is not a specialist in tropical medicine, and that he is based in Kiel. So very odd.

Not odd at all. Have you heard of the other Doctors at the center?

Have you heard of the Doctors at the Kenyan center where froome was allegedly treated?

No.

You're chasing shadows there my friend.