Sky/Froome Talk Only (No Way Sky Are Cleans?)

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Mar 13, 2009
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oh, and when Brailsfor brought him in for testing circa 2008, he tested thru the roof, and Brailsford speculated his ergo result pedigree meant he was a potential TdF winner.

there is stuff floating round the web on this, so there is a record.

He is anything but a donkey, with no indication of latent ability.
 
blackcat said:
do you want me to say it again?

Armstrong had 5 years competing at elite levels by the time he was 21.

At 21, Froomie had come from Kenya, to SA, and then road onto John Robertson's Konica Minolta team, and was on the UCI Le Monde (aigle) development quad for espoirs for a few races, like lAvenir. Then Robertson upgraded him onto the Barloworld team. And he had a fantastic first Tour at 23. And he had perhaps the least experience of anyone in the European pro peloton. Everyone seems to miss this point.

Then thanks to the Claudio Corti fiasco and Barlo failing to get him a suitable race program with John Lee Augustyn, his race shedule caused him to plateau in his development.

He has lots of experience now. Lots. :p
 
Dec 27, 2010
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blackcat said:
oh, and when Brailsfor brought him in for testing circa 2008, he tested thru the roof, and Brailsford speculated his ergo result pedigree meant he was a potential TdF winner.

there is stuff floating round the web on this, so there is a record.

He is anything but a donkey, with no indication of latent ability.

So why would they not give him a new contract after a long spell of illness during his first two years with Sky? Brailsford publically stated in 2009 he wanted a British winner of the Tour within 5 years. If he thought Froome could be a TdF winner, would he really not renew his contract? At a point where Bradley had bombed in the 2010 Tour and crashed out of the 2011 Tour, and it could be said Wiggins was running out of time to have a real run at the Tour. Would Brailsford really release a younger, "through the roof" Froome?

I'm not just stirring the pot here, I genuinely believe Sky were as taken aback as everyone else by his performance in 2011 Vuelta.
 
Oct 30, 2012
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Avoriaz said:
Just guessing, but they probably didn't ride bikes in PE.

And never seen a cyclist make a good runner. I rememeber once Phil Anderson getting dropped by about 150m in the 400m of Superstars...long time ago :D

Ever heard of Rob Jebb?
 
Jun 15, 2010
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acoggan said:
??

Wiggins data is all over the web. That's how I was able to put this plot together:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=972830&postcount=184

Now 'tis true that mostly only average values are mentioned, and actual files only occasionally posted...but in this case there is little to be learned from inspecting the moment-by-moment power.

Sky told me this on live chat when I asked why they don't publush.
 
Dec 30, 2011
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will10 said:
Are you sure? What signs were they then Mister 19?

Before the Vuelta '11 most people who knew about Froome (not many) remembered him crashing into the commissaire at the U23 Worlds.

First race in Europe:

1st in Giro delle Regioni, Stage 5 : Chianciano Terme - Montepulciano
2nd Giro delle Regioni, Stage 2 : Citta' Sant'Angelo - Citta' Sant'Angelo
He would have won the overall if not for a series of crashes.

Then his subsequent results at Barloworld in 08 were very impressive for a first year neo-pro from Africa.

Corti, Brailsford and Julich all claimed he was capable of attaining a very high level and he had immense potential. To come over from Africa and be capable of competing against the European riders is quite a feat in itself.

Check this post for specific details about Froome's early career
http://velorooms.com/the-doping-section/chris-froome/msg59781/#msg59781
 
Dec 30, 2011
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ferryman said:
If Froome were to be clean it is obvious that he is certainly one of the best GC riders in the world. Most likely the best or second.

I would be interested to know who you think would be the best if Froome was second best?
An on form Alberto Contador, but it is hard to judge such matters until we have seen GC riders all competing against each other in fair circumstances

So him thus competing and narrowly losing out to those three, who may have been aided by other aids, is certainly not all that suspicious.
[/quote
10 minutes+ is not a narrow defeat in a GT. Also, can you post your reasons why you have lumped JRod in with the other two, other than him being Spanish?

I was not talking about this in context of the Vuelta, rather just when Froome was not so incapacitated by fatigue that he could actually compete to a degree.

Also I lumped in Purito because the poster I was replying to lumped in Purito with the other two and therefore I was challenging his post by claiming that it was possible to realise Froome's performance even against 3 dopers as he explicity states:
After a hard tour and a long season Froome went up against the three amigos....who , lets face it, were not training or cycling on bread and water. In fact it was bloody obvious and plain as day what was going on.


Not your finest post young Froome.
Care to explain why?
 
Dec 27, 2010
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Froome19 said:
First race in Europe:

1st in Giro delle Regioni, Stage 5 : Chianciano Terme - Montepulciano
2nd Giro delle Regioni, Stage 2 : Citta' Sant'Angelo - Citta' Sant'Angelo
He would have won the overall if not for a series of crashes.

Then his subsequent results at Barloworld in 08 were very impressive for a first year neo-pro from Africa.

Corti, Brailsford and Julich all claimed he was capable of attaining a very high level and he had immense potential. To come over from Africa and be capable of competing against the European riders is quite a feat in itself.

Check this post for specific details about Froome's early career
http://velorooms.com/the-doping-section/chris-froome/msg59781/#msg59781

An impressive piece over on velorooms, but you failed to mention that his heart was 2/3s larger than a normal human's, or that he matured tubulars in his basement for five years before using them.
 
Froome19 said:
First race in Europe:

1st in Giro delle Regioni, Stage 5 : Chianciano Terme - Montepulciano
2nd Giro delle Regioni, Stage 2 : Citta' Sant'Angelo - Citta' Sant'Angelo
He would have won the overall if not for a series of crashes.

Then his subsequent results at Barloworld in 08 were very impressive for a first year neo-pro from Africa.

Corti, Brailsford and Julich all claimed he was capable of attaining a very high level and he had immense potential. To come over from Africa and be capable of competing against the European riders is quite a feat in itself.

Check this post for specific details about Froome's early career
http://velorooms.com/the-doping-section/chris-froome/msg59781/#msg59781

They're very friendly over there at Velorooms. They seem to buy everything you say!

I think you need to be honest about the Giro delle Region though. It's a district race. You throw in two names which make it look like he was beating future champions. These types of races are for local neo/pros along with inviting one or two stars. Pretending the race is a hotbed of future tour winners is simply not true.

You never even heard of the race until you google'd Froome's history.

Check out the illustrious names from last winners! :rolleyes:

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giro_delle_Regioni
 
Dec 30, 2011
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Since 1997, from riders who have finished on the podium we have a grand total of 5 Giro wins..

After all it is not Avenir or anything like that, but it is certainly an indication...
 
Dec 30, 2011
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Libertine Seguros said:
Au contraire. You do not see how it can only be explained away by the use of PEDs.

If you can't see how the use of PEDs is one potential reason for such a transformation, then in the words of Jan Ullrich, I can't help you.

The bilharzia probably did affect his development prior to August 2011. But don't you think it's incredibly... well, convenient that the bilharzia cleared up just when his contract was due and wasn't going to be renewed (by a British team who had staked a lot on having a British GT winner, which Froome had apparently shown the capability of being, no less)? You'd have thought that, having a potential British GT winner on their hands, Sky would have locked the guy in. After all, by waiting until he came 2nd at the Vuelta, they suddenly had to pay him a bunch more, rather than getting him on a cut price, the same as how Mark Cavendish was still on a wage he'd signed up for in 2007 until last year. And you don't think it's then convenient that he would, after a month of being the best cyclist in the world, then contract that same illness throughout the offseason and early season, thus excusing him for being invisible for the first half of the year, only for it to then clear up just in time for him to get into péloton-destroying form ahead of destroying the field at the Tour?
.
Well they were sure waiting a long time for Froome to show signs of his capability at the highest level and even if you have such a great talent you are going to eventually let him go if he has not contributed anything to the cause and has not shown signs that he will start to contribute and transform into what they believed he could become.

It also seems like you do not understand Bilharzia, as far as I know once you have contracted it is it close to impossible to eradicate it from the body and therefore it will stay with you for life. In fact the parasite can hide in your body for a sustained period of time and you will not in fact realise it and indeed it comes back later on. It is very likely that Froome will be affected by it again and therefore he most likely will have to take sustained medication which he takes in the first half in the season. Effectively he takes heavy medication throughout the early part of the season to supress the disease and as far as I know this may impact on his early season performances until he manages to find a better way to manage the disease.

Also I find it rather difficult to believe that Froome has framed the whole Bilharzia thing because in fact the UCI in fact found it within his blood in late 2010 when testing him and if not for that it would have not actually been found. He was carrying it around for a sustained period of time and indeed even he himself does not know when he originally contracted it.

In a strange way it is very thankful that he is a professional cyclist as otherwise he would have been continually effected by the parasite and he would never have known any better. Indeed for those who deny him having Bliharzia 40% of Kenyans contract it so it is certainly likely he managed to contract it.

This year for example he was re-tested in March and it was found that indeed he still had the parasite, therefore he was required to take the medication. See this by his GF
After being tested for Bilharzia in March they found it was still positive. He then started the medication in April, which took him off the bike for another week. This was obviously critical training time ahead of the Tour. At that point Chris had serious doubts as to whether he'd be ready to even ride

It is a constant thorn in his side and from what he implies:
I've been receiving treatment for two years now. For the first half of the year I take heavy medication to suppress the disease, but when you are diagnosed with bilharzia you never lose it,” he said.
It may be something which will also run its course this season as well.
What I do not know is whether he would take that heavy medication to supress the disease if they do not find the Bilharzia in his system this time round. Indeed his GF confirms that it may still be lurking atm when she posted on VR recently:
And yes, he definitely has been struggling with bilharzia... he is due for another test to see if it's cleared his system.

So LS it may be coincidence but due to the nature of Bilharzia I would say it is not all that much of a surprise that resurfaced and when it did. Especially as rather than actually effecting all that much in 2011 I believe that it was not as bad, but rather it required treatment and therefore he was forced of the bike for some time in April due to the treatment.

In terms of his original Bilharzia he found out about it at the turn of the new year in 2010 (this can not be disputed) and then it seemed like he needed to remove it from his system. His results do show an improvement with decent performances in Suisse and it would be fair to say that he was slowly shaking it off due to his treatment. In terms of the time line it makes sense as you would assume from identifiying it at the New Year it would then take him some time to first come up with a solution and then to use it and peak for the Vuelta at the end of the season.
What's galling is that some of the people who swallowed Froome's story whole were throwing darts at Juanjo Cobo.
Agreed
 
Froome19 said:
Since 1997, from riders who have finished on the podium we have a grand total of 5 Giro wins..

After all it is not Avenir or anything like that, but it is certainly an indication...

And of those 5 winners how many have since been busted for doping?

I think you're right. The race certainly does indicate future performance enhancement :rolleyes:
 
Dec 30, 2011
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Ferminal said:
Yet they are all dopers...
thehog said:
And of those 5 winners how many have since been busted for doping?

I think you're right. The race certainly does indicate future performance enhancement :rolleyes:
Yep I noticed that :eek:, does not really prove anything though does it?
Or is this a race for young riders planning to enter into a career of doping? ;)

Hog if you want to come up with a logical argument then by all means.. but stating facts which can not even be administered to mean anything through your join the dots technique.. well that is just deflecting the point.. or in other words an admittance that I am right..
 
The problem is, taking developmental races and things like that into account, you could make a case for almost any racer having the potential to win GTs. Arkaitz Durán, for example, had a great record as a junior. Or how about Kai Reus or Remmert Wielinga?

The problem is how hard it is to un-see everything we say from 2009 to August 2011. His coming out party was so spectacular and so strong. If he'd had a few results to point to, or if he'd had a great Vuelta then collapsed in the final week and finished at the lower end of the top 10, people would probably buy it a lot easier than how he was the strongest guy over several mountains despite working them as a domestique, how he suddenly could out-TT Cancellara, and so forth and so on. Those performances that were now being pointed to as evidence he had GT winning potential saw him finishing behind the likes of Fabio Taborre. Taborre is a talented rider, but if he suddenly starts treating guys like Nibali like jokes in the Giro, you bet I'm calling foul.

But even after accepting his breakthrough, the way he could then contract the same illness that happens to just clear up in time for a GT for the second time in a year after sucking all season until then... it's just too convenient for my liking. Put a Spanish or Italian flag next to his name and he wouldn't be getting the treatment he's getting... everybody would be calling him out.

He's a British Santiago Pérez.
 
Froome19 said:
Hog if you want to come up with a logical argument then by all means.. but stating facts which can not even be administered to mean anything through your join the dots technique.. well that is just deflecting the point.. or in other words an admittance that I am right..

Sure. That's cool. I'm down with that.

But if you're going to present 1 stage win in a provincial Italian race as some form of indicator of a future Tour winner then your dots are stretched thin.

With your logic you'd have to ask out of all the young "clean" stage winners since 1997 from the Giro delle Region became Grand Tour contenders?

Answers on the back of a postage stamp.
 
Sep 14, 2011
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Libertine Seguros said:
The problem is, taking developmental races and things like that into account, you could make a case for almost any racer having the potential to win GTs. Arkaitz Durán, for example, had a great record as a junior. Or how about Kai Reus or Remmert Wielinga?

The problem is how hard it is to un-see everything we say from 2009 to August 2011. His coming out party was so spectacular and so strong. If he'd had a few results to point to, or if he'd had a great Vuelta then collapsed in the final week and finished at the lower end of the top 10, people would probably buy it a lot easier than how he was the strongest guy over several mountains despite working them as a domestique, how he suddenly could out-TT Cancellara, and so forth and so on. Those performances that were now being pointed to as evidence he had GT winning potential saw him finishing behind the likes of Fabio Taborre. Taborre is a talented rider, but if he suddenly starts treating guys like Nibali like jokes in the Giro, you bet I'm calling foul.

But even after accepting his breakthrough, the way he could then contract the same illness that happens to just clear up in time for a GT for the second time in a year after sucking all season until then... it's just too convenient for my liking. Put a Spanish or Italian flag next to his name and he wouldn't be getting the treatment he's getting... everybody would be calling him out.

He's a British Santiago Pérez.

Not exactly true to say he sucked all year and suddenly came from nowhere in the Tour is it? But if you want to bend the facts to suit your argument than fair enough.
 
Sep 14, 2011
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thehog said:
He was 10 minutes off the back in each stage at Romandie!

He did a reasonable time trial there to suggest he was returning to some sort of form and then finished 4th in the Dauphine. Clearly you prefer to pretend that never happened though as it doesn't support the argument that his Tour performance came completely out of the blue.
 
Bernie's eyesore said:
He did a reasonable time trial there to suggest he was returning to some sort of form and then finished 4th in the Dauphine. Clearly you prefer to pretend that never happened though as it doesn't support the argument that his Tour performance came completely out of the blue.

???

Did you not watch the race? He couldn't even hang on to the front group.

10 minutes+ in each stage.

You seriously want me to believe that's reasonable?

It is you who is seeing through Sky coloured glasses.
 
Sep 14, 2011
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thehog said:
???

Did you not watch the race? He couldn't even hang on to the front group.

10 minutes+ in each stage.

You seriously want me to believe that's reasonable?

It is you who is seeing through Sky coloured glasses.

The trouble with you (Dear Wiggo has the same problem) is that when someone says something you pretend they said something else if it doesn't suit your argument.
 
Bernie's eyesore said:
The trouble with you (Dear Wiggo has the same problem) is that when someone says something you pretend they said something else if it doesn't suit your argument.

It's ok. You don't have to answer the question.

I already know the answer.

10 minute back at Romandie on each stage. Not seen all year.

Then he's out time TT'ing Cancellera!

Join those dots.
 
Bernie's eyesore said:
Not exactly true to say he sucked all year and suddenly came from nowhere in the Tour is it? But if you want to bend the facts to suit your argument than fair enough.

Even Froome needs some race days to warm up. He suddenly was over his Bilharzia in time to race well at a key warm-up race in order to be in top form at the Tour.

It doesn't change the fact that until then he had a grand total of 5 CQ points for the year - for the amazing result of not climbing off and getting into the team car in Romandie.

As I said, I believe the bilharzia existed, and potentially still exists. I also don't believe that said disease is so convenient that it can be cured specifically for a major race when one's contract is up, then strike again immediately for several months, only to clear up a month or two before another major race.

Originally Froome claimed that he had caught it in the 2010-11 offseason, but this has been pushed back further and further to explain more and more of his down period. I understand that the nature of the disease makes this not just plausible but likely, but I still see it as strange that a guy who has shown enough promise to be a decent top level pro, but nothing more, is suddenly a superstar who can drop anybody at will - but only at selected times of the year.