Sky Grand Tour Line Up

[Raceoftruth]

Ryo was talking about Movistar because the talk of EBH's chances in green had moved over to a brief aside over Rojas getting over as many mountains as him.

Sky don't HAVE 9 climbers to take.

They could put out a team who have shown ability in the mountains - Wiggins, Uran, Zandio, Lovkvist, Rogers, Augustyn, Possoni, Cioni, Gerrans, Pauwels, Carlstrom, Froome, and after today Cummings and EBH. Pick 9 from them and maybe not the best climbing squad ever, but not bad!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

But there's a difference between "has shown ability in the mountains" and "climber". A lot of those people that Sky have are not pure climbers, even Wiggins, for whom learning to climb has clearly been a relatively recent development. Even some GC men I don't consider climbers, because they're 'hangers-on' in the mountains. I can see some of the guys there providing good support in the mountains, and a couple who might be able to make the final selection on a climb that doesn't tear it up to riders on their own minutes apart like Zoncolán or Angliru. But I don't think Sky have people who could get on the front and put big names out the back.

The only pure climbers Sky have are Rigoberto Urán and maybe if we're charitable, Morris Possoni. There's only really Urán and Lövkvist I can see getting on the front and causing any pain for GC names. And if Urán got up the front and set the most blistering pace he could, then Wiggins and Rogers would be among the GC guys I'd fear for.

Essentially Sky have an ok defensive mountains team - people who can help pace a blown leader. Not many who can blow up other teams' leaders.

 

[maltiv]

They could put out a team who have shown ability in the mountains - Wiggins, Uran, Zandio, Lovkvist, Rogers, Augustyn, Possoni, Cioni, Gerrans, Pauwels, Carlstrom, Froome, and after today Cummings and EBH. Pick 9 from them and maybe not the best climbing squad ever, but not bad!

Pauwels has done nothing since he joined Team Sky. Highly doubt he will even get a pro contract in 2012. A shame, he showed a lot of promise in the 2009 giro, but he seems to have lost it. I might be wrong though!

 

[stefrees]

But there's a difference between "has shown ability in the mountains" and "climber". A lot of those people that Sky have are not pure climbers, even Wiggins, for whom learning to climb has clearly been a relatively recent development. Even some GC men I don't consider climbers, because they're 'hangers-on' in the mountains. I can see some of the guys there providing good support in the mountains, and a couple who might be able to make the final selection on a climb that doesn't tear it up to riders on their own minutes apart like Zoncolán or Angliru. But I don't think Sky have people who could get on the front and put big names out the back.

The only pure climbers Sky have are Rigoberto Urán and maybe if we're charitable, Morris Possoni. There's only really Urán and Lövkvist I can see getting on the front and causing any pain for GC names. And if Urán got up the front and set the most blistering pace he could, then Wiggins and Rogers would be among the GC guys I'd fear for.

Essentially Sky have an ok defensive mountains team - people who can help pace a blown leader. Not many who can blow up other teams' leaders.

Pretty much spot on

 

[ingsve]

But there's a difference between "has shown ability in the mountains" and "climber". A lot of those people that Sky have are not pure climbers, even Wiggins, for whom learning to climb has clearly been a relatively recent development. Even some GC men I don't consider climbers, because they're 'hangers-on' in the mountains. I can see some of the guys there providing good support in the mountains, and a couple who might be able to make the final selection on a climb that doesn't tear it up to riders on their own minutes apart like Zoncolán or Angliru. But I don't think Sky have people who could get on the front and put big names out the back.

The only pure climbers Sky have are Rigoberto Urán and maybe if we're charitable, Morris Possoni. There's only really Urán and Lövkvist I can see getting on the front and causing any pain for GC names. And if Urán got up the front and set the most blistering pace he could, then Wiggins and Rogers would be among the GC guys I'd fear for.

Essentially Sky have an ok defensive mountains team - people who can help pace a blown leader. Not many who can blow up other teams' leaders.

Yep, I would agree with that. I would certainly count Possoni as a pure climber though he is not at the level, at least not yet, to ride away from the top guys in the world. Though he could potentially do it in lesser races against lesser examples of "hang on climbers". I think that Serge Pauwels also has the body type of a pure climber but he's at even less of a level than Possoni.

Sky could probably have been a good team for Abraham Olano back in the day. He was regularly paced up the climbs by 4-5 team mates.

At least with the aquisition of Uran it's better than last year.

Just out of curiosity, LS. Did you consider Jan Ullrich to be a climber? To me he was also the typical "hanging on climber" but he was also so strong at pacing that he could split a group. So I guess he could be seen as the ultimate type of an offensive "defensive climber".

 

[ingsve]

Pauwels has done nothing since he joined Team Sky. Highly doubt he will even get a pro contract in 2012. A shame, he showed a lot of promise in the 2009 giro, but he seems to have lost it. I might be wrong though!

He was very distracted by university studies during last year. He finished a degree in engineering before joining Sky and last year he went on to study for a Masters in Applied Economics. That took a lot of his attention away and it impacted his cycling. For this year he has decided to give cycling 100% of his concentration for the next couple of years before he needs to go back and finish his thesis. Hopefully he can reach his true potential this year.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

... Even some GC men I don't consider climbers, because they're 'hangers-on' in the mountains...

Used to be a perfectly acceptable way to win a GT, hang on up the steep stuff and smoke 'em in the TT. That seems to be frowned on now and the best climber 'should' win the race.

 

[ingsve]

Used to be a perfectly acceptable way to win a GT, hang on up the steep stuff and smoke 'em in the TT. That seems to be frowned on now and the best climber 'should' win the race.

Well, that certainly seems to be the thinking that the organisers seem to have. Back when Indurain won the Tour there were 100-120km of ITT and 50-70km of TTT each year. Now we're nowhere near those types of kms. The number of MTFs have also increased.

I think that much of it has to do with what riders are dominating at certain times. In recent years it has been riders like Contador, Schleck, Basso etc that have been the focus of attention in GTs and I believe that the organizers have that in the back of their minds a lot when setting a course. Perhaps things would change a little again if a guy like Cancellara expressed an interest in seriously winning a GT.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Just out of curiosity, LS. Did you consider Jan Ullrich to be a climber? To me he was also the typical "hanging on climber" but he was also so strong at pacing that he could split a group. So I guess he could be seen as the ultimate type of an offensive "defensive climber".

To be fair, I was a bit harsh in my definitions in that you can be a climber without being a 'pure' climber. Ullrich was definitely a climber, but he wasn't a pure climber; most tempo riders aren't (though there are exceptions, like Basso and to a lesser extent Sastre), except when they're domestiquing (Szmyd, Navarro and Cardoso all give excellent examples of this in recent times).

Used to be a perfectly acceptable way to win a GT, hang on up the steep stuff and smoke 'em in the TT. That seems to be frowned on now and the best climber 'should' win the race.

It's a perfectly acceptable way to win a GT - but don't expect me to like the guys doing it. The hangers-on are not bad climbers - a lot of them are very good in fact. But they don't animate the race much, and because this approach has been very successful of late (and a lot of new big money teams at the forefront of globalisation come from countries with few natural climbers) the number of them has gone up considerably, which has led to inherently conservative racing. This is why there has been a counter-movement in favour of the dynamic lightweight climber amongst many fans. It's also a case of what the fans want to see. If the best audience reaction and audience figures has been for a mountain duel, and the two most bankable stars in the sport are both climbers, they will seek to capitalise on that by putting in more stages for them. If Cancellara and Tony Martin could climb a bit more and were the bankable stars, then we'd see routes like the Indurain days.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

But there's a difference between "has shown ability in the mountains" and "climber". A lot of those people that Sky have are not pure climbers, even Wiggins, for whom learning to climb has clearly been a relatively recent development. Even some GC men I don't consider climbers, because they're 'hangers-on' in the mountains. I can see some of the guys there providing good support in the mountains, and a couple who might be able to make the final selection on a climb that doesn't tear it up to riders on their own minutes apart like Zoncolán or Angliru. But I don't think Sky have people who could get on the front and put big names out the back.

The only pure climbers Sky have are Rigoberto Urán and maybe if we're charitable, Morris Possoni. There's only really Urán and Lövkvist I can see getting on the front and causing any pain for GC names. And if Urán got up the front and set the most blistering pace he could, then Wiggins and Rogers would be among the GC guys I'd fear for.

Essentially Sky have an ok defensive mountains team - people who can help pace a blown leader. Not many who can blow up other teams' leaders.

You're being unfair.

The pace they set on the penultimate climb pretty successfully blew up their own leader in last year's tour's first stage.

 

[auscyclefan94]

But there's a difference between "has shown ability in the mountains" and "climber". A lot of those people that Sky have are not pure climbers, even Wiggins, for whom learning to climb has clearly been a relatively recent development. Even some GC men I don't consider climbers, because they're 'hangers-on' in the mountains. I can see some of the guys there providing good support in the mountains, and a couple who might be able to make the final selection on a climb that doesn't tear it up to riders on their own minutes apart like Zoncolán or Angliru. But I don't think Sky have people who could get on the front and put big names out the back.

The only pure climbers Sky have are Rigoberto Urán and maybe if we're charitable, Morris Possoni. There's only really Urán and Lövkvist I can see getting on the front and causing any pain for GC names. And if Urán got up the front and set the most blistering pace he could, then Wiggins and Rogers would be among the GC guys I'd fear for.

Essentially Sky have an ok defensive mountains team - people who can help pace a blown leader. Not many who can blow up other teams' leaders.

Just remember Morzine last year. Sky got on the front and Flecha and someone else blew the race apart and resulted in Wiggins trailing off the back.

 

[ingsve]

To be fair, I was a bit harsh in my definitions in that you can be a climber without being a 'pure' climber. Ullrich was definitely a climber, but he wasn't a pure climber; most tempo riders aren't (though there are exceptions, like Basso and to a lesser extent Sastre), except when they're domestiquing (Szmyd, Navarro and Cardoso all give excellent examples of this in recent times).

I wouldn't say it was harsh. I knew what you meant. I also tend to group climbers into two categories. The Pantanis and the Indurains pretty much but I would still call both groups climbers. I was just curious if you considered Ullrich a Pantani or an Indurain. I guess he falls slightly in the middle though his characteristics are mostly that of the Indurain.

I agree that the "hangers on" are not the most exciting riders in the bunch. You need to have that other element as well to make races exciting. I think the best GTs are when you have a perfect balance between the two aspects of climbing. Inspite of all the trouble and what we have learnt since, I really enjoyed the 1998 Tour which was the ultimate struggle between the pure climber in Pantani and the steady tempo climbing of Ullrich. There you get situations where the better climber can easily get away by attacking but will he gain enough time or will the slow and steady guy win out in the end.

 

[ingsve]

Just remember Morzine last year. Sky got on the front and Flecha and someone else blew the race apart and resulted in Lofvkist and Rogers trailing off the back.

I think you are a little mixed up. Löfkvist was one of the guys that was set to keep pace in the front and Rogers didn't ride for Sky last year.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I agree that the "hangers on" are not the most exciting riders in the bunch. You need to have that other element as well to make races exciting. I think the best GTs are when you have a perfect balance between the two aspects of climbing. Inspite of all the trouble and what we have learnt since, I really enjoyed the 1998 Tour which was the ultimate struggle between the pure climber in Pantani and the steady tempo climbing of Ullrich. There you get situations where the better climber can easily get away by attacking but will he gain enough time or will the slow and steady guy win out in the end.

Best example is the 1973 Giro with Merckx and probably my favourite of the era, José Manuel Fuente. I wasn't around to see any of it, hadn't been born, but encapsulates what we're talking about here near perfectly.

 

[Yeahright]

No, Schleck won't qualify. It's for riders born after 1-1-1986.

As for the sprinters, I'd bring Swift instead of Henderson (or Sutton).

I would stay with Henderson. If he is fit he is faster than both Swift or Sutton and he can potentially win a stage for them, especially if the sprints get messy.

 

[Raceoftruth]

I would stay with Henderson. If he is fit he is faster than both Swift or Sutton and he can potentially win a stage for them, especially if the sprints get messy.

Agree! Not bad against the clock either so a good man for the ttt!

 

[Eric8-A]

I think Rogers should re-consider contending for Grand Tours. I believe he can do much better overall than Wiggo.

 

[Raceoftruth]

I think Rogers should re-consider contending for Grand Tours. I believe he can do much better overall than Wiggo.

Not too sure about that! Maybe the old take the pressure of himself trick?

 

[Eric8-A]

Not too sure about that! Maybe the old take the pressure of himself trick?

It may be that and he also said he just doesn't have it in him anymore. The thing with Wiggins is that after the '09 TdF, he's become Mr. Tour de France and has gotten way too overrated. I understand the hype. He's the first Brit to place that high since Robert Millar. But I think it was someone on here that said the reason Wiggo was 4th in the Tour was because of the somewhat lenient pace being set by Astana because of the Lance and Contador situation. Or something along those lines.

It's truly going to be tough for Wiggo to better his 4th place this year with guys like Basso, Vino, Andy, Contador, Sammy etc.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think Rogers should re-consider contending for Grand Tours. I believe he can do much better overall than Wiggo.

Maybe he can do better than Wiggo, but realistically Rogers cannot contend for Grand Tours. Maybe he can top 10 again, and be another diesel that we never see in the race clogging up the lower end of the top 10, but contend? No way.

 

[ingsve]

Maybe he can do better than Wiggo, but realistically Rogers cannot contend for Grand Tours. Maybe he can top 10 again, and be another diesel that we never see in the race clogging up the lower end of the top 10, but contend? No way.

What's the highest you think a diesel could finish against the usual competition the next couple of years? Is it possible to podium you think if things really went the right way and there were a few more ITT kms perhaps?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

What's the highest you think a diesel could finish against the usual competition the next couple of years? Is it possible to podium you think if things really went the right way and there were a few more ITT kms perhaps?

Some diesels could finish on the podium. Some may require a bit of luck to get there (thinking of Bruseghin's 2008 Giro podium here), and Evans is of course known as a diesel and is definitely a podium threat. Basso is more of a climber but more of a tempo rider than a change-of-pace climber, and he just came off winning a GT in 2010.

I just don't see that Rogers is going to be one of those who could do that. He isn't any better than Vandevelde, Leipheimer, Hesjedal etc. He was 8th in the 2009 Giro, and that's about all I think he's capable of in a GT, especially given 2011's parcours.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I think Rogers should re-consider contending for Grand Tours. I believe he can do much better overall than Wiggo.

this is a joke I hope?

 

[Ferminal]

Umm Rogers has already said he cares nothing for GT GC now. He simply can't perform consistently at the highest level over the three weeks, for reasons we can't discuss here.

Apparently he "had the numbers" to be a winner, but even at his best I think it would have been a bit of a long shot to be #1.

 

[stefrees]

Interesting point of note, Steve Cummings is not down to do any races at all in march which I find a bit odd. I also think the basis of the Paris nice team will be the tdf