Sour grapes from Vaughters?

[craig1985]

Hang on, if they found out in late 2010, wouldn't you sack him then? I guess there is more to the story then what is being let on.

 

[needasmoke]

One Aussie down............most of the rest at Garmin will follow eventually. Poor Vaughters.

garmin cervelo = radioshack.v2 = retirement village

 

[NickBVK]

1. The 'offence' occurred in 2009 - it's 2011 now!

2. He hasn't signed with GreenEDGE already he took up the role of Director of Competition or something with Cycling Australia i.e Driving the car at World Championships. He took over from Neil Stephens who did this while being a DS with Caisse Depagne.

3. Lot's of Aussies on Garmin, no holds barred now in terms of recruitment.

4. Why announce it on the night of the teams first win of the 2011 season? Such an announcement can wait at least a few days

 

[ingsve]

Hang on, if they found out in late 2010, wouldn't you sack him then? I guess there is more to the story then what is being let on.

As I understand it they found out about Lowe in late 2010 but we don't know when they learnt about the referral by White. That could have happened very recently. Also sacking someone could potentially take a little time to get right, especially in a case like this, so as not to get sued for wrongful termination.

 

[AussieGoddess]

1. The 'offence' occurred in 2009 - it's 2011 now!

2. He hasn't signed with GreenEDGE already he took up the role of Director of Competition or something with Cycling Australia i.e Driving the car at World Championships. He took over from Neil Stephens who did this while being a DS with Caisse Depagne.

3. Lot's of Aussies on Garmin, no holds barred now in terms of recruitment.

4. Why announce it on the night of the teams first win of the 2011 season? Such an announcement can wait at least a few days

Why allow him to represent you at the first race of the season if you intend sacking him?

Why not sack him when you found out about such a 'huge' breach of contract? If indeed the breach is grounds for instant dismissal?

The fact that it took them over a year to find out .... smells.
The fact that they waited at least a month (more than likely a few months) to sack him .... smells even more.

 

[taiwan]

One Aussie down............most of the rest at Garmin will follow eventually. Poor Vaughters.

Not so. The only Aussie to worry about losing would be Haussler. The rest are workers or youngsters.

+ I'd be glad to see Haussler on another team because I think he'll be limited by the presence of Hushovd or Farrar at lots of races that would suit him.

 

[Rocksteady]

One thing not mentioned here (and worth mentioning) is that the decision was made by the Slipstream board of directors. I don't know about slipstream but most BoDs only meet about 4 times a year (they are not full time employees). That timeline would actually make sense. Found out in late 2010 (say November as an example), the board could have met in December (or January). By that time, White was already working on/at TDU and they couldn't replace him in time. So now that its over, so long Matt White. I don't see anything fishy about a timeline like that.

however its all conjecture.... Take it for what its worth.

 

[ingsve]

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/513810/vaughters-on-why-he-had-to-sack-matt-white.html

Vaughters only found out about the referral 10 days ago and didn't want to interfere with the riders at TDU so that's why White was fired right after TDU instead of right before.

 

[rickshaw]

Chauvinism

I find this Australian Chauvinism to be "a hoot". Does anyone actually try to understand the articles?

The offense (sending rider to an un-approved doctor) occured in April '09.
Garmin allegedly learns about incident toward end of '10 during contract dispute.

Garmin board fires White in Jan '11. That makes 3, maybe 4 months between when Garmin learns of the incident and the board meets and makes a decision, which in truth is not a bad turn around time for a company board of directors.

"But, but..." they sputter, "Garmin MUST have known about the infraction in '09! Whitey and Lowe COULDN'T have kept it secret!"

Answer as a question: Why would one Aussie DS (White) send his horribly under-performing rider (another Aussie Lowe) to a Spanish Dr who 1) worked for Manolo Sais on Once, JB on Postal, 2) was video taped disposing of USPS "medical waste" by French police, 3) has been accused of providing a retro-active prescription to LA and now runs a seemingly exclusive sports clinic in (wink wink) Spain? Why indeed.

And how could they possibly keep all this secret? Maybe secrecy is a highly developed and necessary part of the sports doping sub-culture, a skill they have honed throughout their careers? Not only possible, but essential.

ps. I wish anyone actually knew what "sour grapes" means. It is in Aesops Fables FGS.

 

[La Pandera]

The thing i love most about this is how Gerard Vroomen nods along like Vaughter's good little lap poodle, showing just how much he fits in at Garmin.

This is the guy who so arrogantly and disrespectfully presumed to turn his ProTour licence into his own personal testing ticket, in complete disregard for actually winning much or creating a successful and workable TEAM.

As an associate of a team's management, he makes for a good bike frame engineer.

It was my understanding that Vroomen and Cervelo Test Team were a Pro Continental team, one with no ambitions to move up to the Pro Tour level.
Did I miss when they received a Pro Tour license?

 

[La Pandera]

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/513810/vaughters-on-why-he-had-to-sack-matt-white.html

Vaughters only found out about the referral 10 days ago and didn't want to interfere with the riders at TDU so that's why White was fired right after TDU instead of right before.

I believe that many will base their opinions on this affair on where their allegiances lie, regardless of the information available to them. A decision like this is consistent with the Garmin team philosophy. I would think that most teams would have reacted in the same way. We can question the validity of the timeline of Vaughters finding out about this violation, and question his motives or we can accept his description of how the events transpired.

Additionally its interesting that there are no posts questioning the statement from White, where there is absolutely no reference to Vaughter's version of the reason for his dismissal. His statement simply states that he decided to go in another direction.

 

[shouldawouldacoulda]

He may regret crossing one Matt White... Street fighter v Colonel Mustard... Street Fighter wins every time.

This is a really savvy comment. White's nickname is "the Aussie of questionable morals". But JV still has an equally ruthless street fighter still in his corner--he's not one of JV's other DSs, but he's pretty powerful in Slipstream Sports LLC. I'll let you guess who.

It will be a good street fight for sure.

 

[Bailey]

I find this Australian Chauvinism to be "a hoot". Does anyone actually try to understand the articles?

The offense (sending rider to an un-approved doctor) occured in April '09.
Garmin allegedly learns about incident toward end of '10 during contract dispute.

Garmin board fires White in Jan '11. That makes 3, maybe 4 months between when Garmin learns of the incident and the board meets and makes a decision, which in truth is not a bad turn around time for a company board of directors.

"But, but..." they sputter, "Garmin MUST have known about the infraction in '09! Whitey and Lowe COULDN'T have kept it secret!"

Answer as a question: Why would one Aussie DS (White) send his horribly under-performing rider (another Aussie Lowe) to a Spanish Dr who 1) worked for Manolo Sais on Once, JB on Postal, 2) was video taped disposing of USPS "medical waste" by French police, 3) has been accused of providing a retro-active prescription to LA and now runs a seemingly exclusive sports clinic in (wink wink) Spain? Why indeed.

And how could they possibly keep all this secret? Maybe secrecy is a highly developed and necessary part of the sports doping sub-culture, a skill they have honed throughout their careers? Not only possible, but essential.

ps. I wish anyone actually knew what "sour grapes" means. It is in Aesops Fables FGS.

So suspend the bloke while you investigate his conduct prior to dismissal rather than continue having him represent your team at a ProTour event. Hypocrisy.

Interesting that Garmin has not stated or clarified when they first became aware of the offence. That would clear things up. The cyclingnews article merely states that "cyclingnews understands" Garmin became aware of White's decision in late 2010.

Which, of course, infers Garmin didn't keep any close record of the rider's whereabouts during 2009 such as it's required to do. Or it did keep a record but paid it no attention back then. Which would infer it wasn't the big sackable offence they're now making it out to be.

 

[ingsve]

So suspend the bloke while you investigate his conduct prior to dismissal rather than continue having him represent your team at a ProTour event. Hypocrisy.

Interesting that Garmin has not stated or clarified when they first became aware of the offence. That would clear things up. The cyclingnews article merely states that "cyclingnews understands" Garmin became aware of White's decision in late 2010.

Which, of course, infers Garmin didn't keep any close record of the rider's whereabouts during 2009 such as it's required to do. Or it did keep a record but paid it no attention back then. Which would infer it wasn't the big sackable offence they're now making it out to be.

Vaughters stated to cycling weekly as I linked above that they became aware of Whites involvment 10 days ago which was right before TDU. They decided to wait to fire him until TDU was over so as not to disturb the riders.

 

[Bailey]

It was my understanding that Vroomen and Cervelo Test Team were a Pro Continental team, one with no ambitions to move up to the Pro Tour level.
Did I miss when they received a Pro Tour license?

A fair point. So the TestTeam decided they'd only make a mockery of their pro continental license, then? Treating the competition as an aside to their product testing ends? Equally lacking in respect.

 

[Bailey]

Vaughters stated to cycling weekly as I linked above that they became aware of Whites involvment 10 days ago which was right before TDU. They decided to wait to fire him until TDU was over so as not to disturb the riders.

Fair enough then.

Why did it only find out 10 days ago?

Didn't Garmin keep any records in 2009? Didn't Garmin know where its riders were during that period? Not sacking any riders? Why?

 

[Publicus]

I find this Australian Chauvinism to be "a hoot". Does anyone actually try to understand the articles?

The offense (sending rider to an un-approved doctor) occured in April '09.
Garmin allegedly learns about incident toward end of '10 during contract dispute.

Garmin board fires White in Jan '11. That makes 3, maybe 4 months between when Garmin learns of the incident and the board meets and makes a decision, which in truth is not a bad turn around time for a company board of directors.

"But, but..." they sputter, "Garmin MUST have known about the infraction in '09! Whitey and Lowe COULDN'T have kept it secret!"

Answer as a question: Why would one Aussie DS (White) send his horribly under-performing rider (another Aussie Lowe) to a Spanish Dr who 1) worked for Manolo Sais on Once, JB on Postal, 2) was video taped disposing of USPS "medical waste" by French police, 3) has been accused of providing a retro-active prescription to LA and now runs a seemingly exclusive sports clinic in (wink wink) Spain? Why indeed.

And how could they possibly keep all this secret? Maybe secrecy is a highly developed and necessary part of the sports doping sub-culture, a skill they have honed throughout their careers? Not only possible, but essential.

ps. I wish anyone actually knew what "sour grapes" means. It is in Aesops Fables FGS.

+1 and welcome to the forum.

 

[La Pandera]

A fair point. So the TestTeam decided they'd only make a mockery of their pro continental license, then? Treating the competition as an aside to their product testing ends? Equally lacking in respect.

I'm sure the name "Cervelo Test Team" was a smoke screen for their true intentions..oh wait....

You must not be familiar with the elite level of the pro ranks being a testing ground for the latest that the cycling manufacturers have to offer.

As far as "treating the competition as an aside" I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to accuse them of. They still competed in races to the best of their abilities, with one of their riders winning a World Championship in the process, and still competing at the highest levels in the top events.

 

[Bailey]

"But, but..." they sputter, "Garmin MUST have known about the infraction in '09! Whitey and Lowe COULDN'T have kept it secret!"

Well may we "splutter" that little detail. It hasn't been adequately addressed.

Why wouldn't they know?

If the movements of Garmin riders were kept secret, how accurate are any of Garmin's rider location records from the past few years?

 

[ingsve]

Fair enough then.

Why did it only find out 10 days ago?

Didn't Garmin keep any records in 2009? Didn't Garmin know where its riders were during that period? Not sacking any riders? Why?

Well, the doctor practises in Valencia and Trent Lowe lives in Valencia so unless they keep track of their riders with GPS to see if they go near any hospitals in their home town then there was nothing to be suspicious about. They only found out about Lowe during Lowes contract negotiation so since he was out of contract they didn't need to fire him. Instead this was probably the reason why he didn't get a new contract with them.

I'm guessing that after finding out about Lowe at the end of the season they started an internal investigation to find out how Lowe got in contact with the doctor and that's how they found the White connection. Vaughters states that they have gone through all their email and phone records to see if anyone else had any contact with the doctor at any time but no one other than Lowe did.

 

[LugHugger]

A fair point. So the TestTeam decided they'd only make a mockery of their pro continental license, then? Treating the competition as an aside to their product testing ends? Equally lacking in respect.

You're an idiot. Teams only exist because of sponsor(s) willingness to commit financially. To take just one sponsors returns, look at Rotors placement and sales since hooking up with Cervelo. By recruiting the class of rider that they did, Cervelo managed to draw enough money in to support the team for two highly succesful seasons and gain their sponsors the highest level of exposure possible. And keep 60+ people employed at Pro Continental level. Perhaps you don't think that was a worthy exercise?

 

[Bailey]

Do we know for sure when Lowe's contract was negotiated and the trips to this doctor first came to light for Garmin?

I wonder how soon thereafter that Vaughters first learned of White's sackable referral.

Ingsve, your assumptions/guesses do sound plausible. Would be interesting to confirm if that's how it was.

 

[skidmark]

This is a really savvy comment. White's nickname is "the Aussie of questionable morals". But JV still has an equally ruthless street fighter still in his corner--he's not one of JV's other DSs, but he's pretty powerful in Slipstream Sports LLC. I'll let you guess who.

It will be a good street fight for sure.

Is it Tommy D?

He looks tough...

 

[Bailey]

You're an idiot. Teams only exist because of sponsor(s) willingness to commit financially. To take just one sponsors returns, look at Rotors placement and sales since hooking up with Cervelo. By recruiting the class of rider that they did, Cervelo managed to draw enough money in to support the team for two highly succesful seasons and gain their sponsors the highest level of exposure possible. And keep 60+ people employed at Pro Continental level. Perhaps you don't think that was a worthy exercise?

Thanks.

My apologies if you think i'm an idiot.

I just wonder why no other teams have ever called themselves "test" teams.

To me it seems quite rude to treat the competition as your own private laboratory rat, that's all. No offence to you or anyone else was intended. I still think it was rude of them to do that.

Priority number one is your products rather than the competition? Even their adverts stated "Winning is not the only thing". Subjectively, it seems to me and a few others i've spoken to, that it brings the competition into disrepute to a degree.

Just quietly, this idiot feels glad no other teams are so blatant and presumptuous as to blatantly name themselves a bunch of glorified product testers.

PS - I appreciate this is not the subject of this thread. It was a 'brain fart' more than anything.

 

[Frosty]

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet but Vaughters talks about his decision here

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/513810/vaughters-on-why-he-had-to-sack-matt-white.html