Speech by Greg Lemond

[Anonymous]

That's common knowledge. Common knowledge that Moser blood doped when he set the hour record. But I have heard no stories about blood doping during stage races back then. None.

oh, and he forgot to finish with "and therefor there was none"
of course with stage racing not being as hard as the Olympics or hour records nobody would think of doing it there.

 

[rapistwit]

Then what you are saying about Lemond has no merit, its nothing more than hersay......

Funny how that works. If someone where to hear negative things about Armstrong the haters would be coming out of the woodwork condemning him as a fraud. But I talk to a couple of pros in the early 90's about Lemond and it's meaningless hearsay. Again, I couldn't really care less whether you believe or not. I heard what I heard and the source seemed reliable.

 

[Anonymous]

I've heard otherwise on Lemond.

What I find weird is the fixation on Armstrong alone while touting other cyclists who have been implicated or caught.

that's just what they do here, and if you dare point that out you can count on abuse. it's a gang really. they have a territory.
don't let them drive you away.
i haven't.

 

[Epicycle]

oh, and he forgot to finish with "and therefor there was none"
of course with stage racing not being as hard as the Olympics or hour records nobody would think of doing it there.

Then why didn't any investigations of Conconi turn up evidence of blood transfusions during stage races? I'm seriously asking. Why no anecdotal evidence when there is tons of it for all kinds of doping in the 1980s?

 

[Anonymous]

No you can take this as I'm not going to drag other people into this minor debate. If you don't want to believe it, don't. I couldn't care less. And if you want to get petty about it send me a private message and we'll keep it off the public forum.

ah, yet another private invitation for bro deal.
i find him inspiring too.

 

[Escarabajo]

that's just what they do here, and if you dare point that out you can count on abuse. it's a gang really. they have a territory.
don't let them drive you away.
i haven't.

It is not a gang. By just reading interviews, technical info by doctors (Ferrari, Conconi), speed on climbs, power outputs, drug raids (OP, Festina), rider confessions (Jacksche, Manzano, Kohl, Sinkewitz, Riis, Zabel, Frankie Andreu), EPO tests (1999 Armstrong samples and others including a compatriot of mine from Colombia), riders being good under 23 and retiring before they even hit the Pros (In Colombia we have some of those because they don't stand a chance anymore like back in the 80's) and etc, etc, etc. It is just too much information to digest and not accept that the two eras were completely different.
I am not scientist but I am no that naive guys.
Thanks.

 

[Anonymous]

jackhammer and rapistwit,
Answer me this, do you believe Armstrong doped?

 

[Animal]

All the animals come out at night, queens fairies, dopers, junkies. Sick, venal...

Heh..

Anyway, I just watched the speech. Very good. He loves the sport obviously. I hope he wins his cases. If he's selling bikes independently, I'll buy a Lemond next time I'm in the market for a new bike.

 

[Rupert]

Refreshing

The 47-year-old recalled meeting Ferrari in 1994. "I had an SRM meter and he looked down at me and said, 'What is that?' I said, 'It's a watt-measuring device'. He said, 'What do you need that for?' I said, 'So I can see if I'm progressing, when I should be recovering and when I should train again'... He had no concept of it.

Now I don't want to defend Dr. Ferrari, but I knew him while I was a medical student in Bologna, Italy during the late 80' and 90's. He was also one of the first Italians to race triathlons at that time. I also had the opportunity for him perform Conconi tests on myself and the other members of my team numerous times during that period. I remember seeing him in the fall of '91 and discussing wattage based training methods. While I was a medical student, I had the type of conversation with him that he is referring to. Only it was in 1991. In fact, the office based Conconi tests were performed on a stationary cycle that read watts. He was obsessed with watt/kg numbers. Lemond makes some interesting points when he discusses doping, but this statement is flat out wrong. Unfortunately, there are very few people who can call him him out on this type of stuff. Now it makes me wonder about the other stuff he spews.

Refreshing to hear from someone with some firsthand knowledge for a change. Much of this thread reminds me of a Rush Limbaugh rant, with all the passionate opinions bandied about as if they were absolute facts.. Whatever the truth of all this is it is sad. Either Lance is a huge cheat and fraud and Greg Lemond is totally right to be so indignant, or Greg Lemond is wrong and he is just a sad, bitter person whose greatness as a cyclist has been eclipsed by an obsession. I have met Greg Lemond and he seems like a genuinely nice man, but I really hate to think that Lance's performance all those years was a total sham.

 

[rapistwit]

jackhammer and rapistwit,
Answer me this, do you believe Armstrong doped?

I have stated in this thread I think Armstrong isn't riding clean.

 

[Anonymous]

I have stated in this thread I think Armstrong isn't riding clean.

Ok, just wondering.

jack?

 

[elapid]

I disagree with you on this. Steriods, blood transfusions, etc were prevelant prior to EPO and the made big differences in performance.

I wrote this earlier in this thread, but it seems relevant here as well.

This has been covered in other threads, but the use of EPO and autologous blood transfusions from the early to mid 90s has transformed proverbial donkeys into race horses. In addition, the drugs, programs and doctors are very expensive and beyond the finances of most professional cyclists. Doping prior to the early 90s definitely existed but did not result in performance enhancement to the same level of EPO and blood transfusions (up to 20%), most likely did not change the order of finishers (unlike EPO etc when you get Kohl finishing 3rd in the TdF and, dare I say it, Armstrong transforming himself into a 7-time TdF winner when his physiology and pedigree would suggest this was impossible), and were readily available to all cyclists and did not require doctors or programs for their administration.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok, just wondering.

jack?

the preponderance of evidence would say he did dope but riding against other doped riders he didn't win just because he had the best dope. he has a huge engine. he has talent.
i think he believes in his talent, thinks he can ride clean against clean riders and is clean now.
i hate to say it but it's possible that if omerta still rules and his rivals are doping i'd imagine he'd know. and that said, i think it would be a hard place to be. getting caught doping now would not only destroy his personal reputation but harm his cause that i absolutely believe he is sincere about.
so, god, i hope he's clean.
and if he's not i hope they catch him.

ps.. please refrain from negative comments about the cancer foundation just this once. my girlfriend's sister died from cancer yesterday.

 

[Anonymous]

the preponderance of evidence would say he did dope but riding against other doped riders he didn't win just because he had the best dope. he has a huge engine. he has talent.
i think he believes in his talent, thinks he can ride clean against clean riders and is clean now.
i hate to say it but it's possible that if omerta still rules and his rivals are doping i'd imagine he'd know. and that said, i think it would be a hard place to be. getting caught doping now would not only destroy his personal reputation but harm his cause that i absolutely believe he is sincere about.
so, god, i hope he's clean.
and if he's not i hope they catch him.

ps.. please refrain from negative comments about the cancer foundation just this once. my girlfriend's sister died from cancer yesterday.

I am truly sorry for your loss.

 

[shawnrohrbach]

tried the link you posted several times and it appears to be down. I did get snippets of the speech elsewhere and hey, let the guy talk. It's a free country. Thanks for the posting.

 

[Anonymous]

It is not a gang. By just reading interviews, technical info by doctors (Ferrari, Conconi), speed on climbs, power outputs, drug raids (OP, Festina), rider confessions (Jacksche, Manzano, Kohl, Sinkewitz, Riis, Zabel, Frankie Andreu), EPO tests (1999 Armstrong samples and others including a compatriot of mine from Colombia), riders being good under 23 and retiring before they even hit the Pros (In Colombia we have some of those because they don't stand a chance anymore like back in the 80's) and etc, etc, etc. It is just too much information to digest and not accept that the two eras were completely different.
I am not scientist but I am no that naive guys.
Thanks.

what i was responding to was, "What I find weird is the fixation on Armstrong alone while touting other cyclists who have been implicated or caught.".

anyone who points THAT out gets a beatdown from the gang.

 

[grimpeur]

i think that's an unfair assumption. it's kind of an insult really.
it's really a holier than thou attitude you can take and put where the sun don't shine.
who are you a fan of? are they beyond suspicion?

Did you read wtf I wrote? The opposing sides in this debate are... Have you followed the pro/con threads on this board for long?

Lemond wants the omerta busted open... you with me there?

The "haters" being anyone that suggests LA doped. Clear?

The LA supporters that will believe to their dying day that LA is/was clean and that attack any messenger that suggests an omerta or that LA was juiced. Still clear?

And the LA apologists that say, "oh well, they all doped." Don't tear down our hero!

So what is so "holier than thou" about that assessment? I'd suggest you put your jhammer exactly where you suggested I put my comment.

 

[stephens]

This part bothers me: another take on the 'blame the pushers, not the addicts' from the war on drugs' debacle. It's simple supply and demand. When the demand dries up, the pushers find new work. However, when the pushers are imprisoned, they're always a new dealer or new drug source to take their place. When the **** will people assume some personal responsibility for their actions?

What you are not seeing is that the teams are the employers here. If this is a health and fairness issue, it is the employers, not the employees (riders) that should be the focus of punishment. The riders are basically being forced into a situation where the only way to get work is to take PEDs. It's been this way for decades, from Belgian kermis riders right up to the top pro teams.

 

[shawnrohrbach]

Did you read wtf I wrote? The opposing sides in this debate are... Have you followed the pro/con threads on this board for long?

Lemond wants the omerta busted open... you with me there?

The "haters" being anyone that suggests LA doped. Clear?

The LA supporters that will believe to their dying day that LA is/was clean and that attack any messenger that suggests an omerta or that LA was juiced. Still clear?

And the LA apologists that say, "oh well, they all doped." Don't tear down our hero!

So what is so "holier than thou" about that assessment? I'd suggest you put your jhammer exactly where you suggested I put my comment.

Grimpeur, NICE!

 

[BroDeal]

Did you read wtf I wrote? The opposing sides in this debate are... Have you followed the pro/con threads on this board for long?

Lemond wants the omerta busted open... you with me there?

The "haters" being anyone that suggests LA doped. Clear?

The LA supporters that will believe to their dying day that LA is/was clean and that attack any messenger that suggests an omerta or that LA was juiced. Still clear?

And the LA apologists that say, "oh well, they all doped." Don't tear down our hero!

So what is so "holier than thou" about that assessment? I'd suggest you put your jhammer exactly where you suggested I put my comment.

Don't get him riled. He will start PMing you with suggestions that you come to Ohio and fight him.

 

[shawnrohrbach]

Don't get him riled. He will start PMing you with suggestions that you come to Ohio and fight him.

LOLOLOLOL How true how true. Just walk away from this dude.

 

[BroDeal]

LOLOLOLOL How true how true. Just walk away from this dude.

The sad thing is that I was not joking.

 

[davidg]

.... the use of EPO and autologous blood transfusions from the early to mid 90s has transformed proverbial donkeys into race horses. .... Doping prior to the early 90s definitely existed but did not result in performance enhancement to the same level of EPO and blood transfusions (up to 20%)

Many years ago, I heard rumours about blood doping in long distance running dating from the 70's. Lasse Viren was frequently named.

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1092549/index.htm

If you read the report, it could have been Bigboat talking. So the knowledge was there and it would have been possible. It was not invented post Lemond.

I dont have a problem with what Lemond is saying, more the way he is saying it.

I also get sick of everybody claiming that he was the one rider from the last 100 years who won 3 tours on nothing more than vitamins. He never cheated in a any way - no caffeine, pseudo-eph, cortisone etc.

C'mon, get real.

Sometimes, you have to accept that even your heroes pushed the boundaries past the rules of the day, whether it be EPO/blood doping in the modern era, or amphetamine, strychnine in days gone by. Both are cheating and they all did it. Get past this point and stop arguing over symantics.

 

[tifosa]

What you are not seeing is that the teams are the employers here. If this is a health and fairness issue, it is the employers, not the employees (riders) that should be the focus of punishment. The riders are basically being forced into a situation where the only way to get work is to take PEDs. It's been this way for decades, from Belgian kermis riders right up to the top pro teams.

I see two guilty parties: D.S.'s and their entourage, & the riders and their entourage. No one is being held hostage; no one is pointing guns at their heads. No one. If they don't want to dope, they can find a job where doping isn't a prerequisite or an expectation. Again, it's a choice. "No" is still an acceptable answer. The sport has been this way for generations of riders. The lore has been passed down, the rise and fall of it's heros come to pass and come to light. For ****'s sake this is 2009 - the age of instant information. If you don't do your homework about your career choice--you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

[Anonymous]

Then what you are saying about Lemond has no merit, its nothing more than hersay......

hearsay has no place in this forum.
unless it's about lance.