SRAM Haters

[Notso Swift]

please Are there really people who spend more than 3 seasons on the same groupo anyway? If you have the same group you did 3 seasons ago you dont ride

? Done 5 years on 7800, I only do 10K per year, so solid but not mega, but that all weather and includes racing and I am a big sprinter
(Use different cassette in race wheels, 105 on trainers and chain is KMC X10SL)


dsut4392, agree, buying every little small part is really for the "exception" mechanics or DIY. Some bike shops here charge $70/hour for a 18 year old kid to do basic stuff, will not take long for the full replacement cost to be made up...
(Know of guys who rebuild them in slow times and sell theim on eBay)

 

[AngusW]

I replaced my Ultegra 9 speed with Rival 10 speed 4 years ago. While the double tap shifting took a while to get used to I am happy to say I have had no problems with gears, brakes or chain. Maybe it's because the majority of the riding I've done on the bike since then has been commuting rather than racing and training. However, nothing has worn out noticeably faster than on my old Ultegra groupset.

Sorry to go off topic as I realise this the SRAM haters thread. I do sympathise with those of you who have had problems with SRAM and I would also be sharing my bad experiences of SRAM if I had any.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

That is telling. JV will do it too - I'd take his harsh words with Felt over their frame geometry (tall head tubes) as an indication of how serious he can be.

Happy racers win races, do well for the sponsors. When stuff breaks or the riders are more concerned about how to shift the stuff than racing, results suffer.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I would like to know what that's about.

What's it's about is I own a shop that does service primarily and of the bicycles we sell, we start with a bike fit, buy a frame and build it in the shop. No bikes or wheels for us that come in boxes. So, we are not beholding to any great big bike maker with a legion of product managers, bean counters and marketeers who then tell sales lizards what to say.

I see what works and what doesn't everyday. Campagnolo and shimano is well thought out, well designed, very functional, reliable. sram is about red frogs, whizbangery in marketing and poor reliability...with a tremendous warranty policy-they will warranty anything for any reason at any time. They would rather replace than re-design stuff that works better.

And for the dsut gent, Yes, as a Campagnolo Pro Shop, I do have lever innards. To take off and replace when it breaks is not the answer. Would you drive a car that had a transmission that broke often, even if it had a great warranty?

 

[kiwirider]

I do like the Campy philosophy that all parts should be serviceable & replaceable, but it's unlikely to be a cost, time or hassle saver for many out there compared to getting a complete new unit under warranty ... Even when those ducks line up, what is going to get you back on the road faster & cheaper:
1 - Take bike back to shop, uninstall and take apart shifter, identify broken part, order replacement & wait days/weeks for it to be delivered (or install from shop stock if they carry full range of parts - ?likely?), reassemble & reinstall
2 - take bike back to shop, SRAM authorise replacement shifter from shop stock (or send out new shifter in days), uninstall old shifter, reinstall new shifter.

Definitely option 1.

I cracked the main indent ring inside my 1999 model Record Ergopower right hand lever in about 2005. So by that stage, it was already out of warranty. Took it to my local bike shop who ordered the $10 -$20 part, spent an hour on servicing it and put it all back together. I rode it for another year and then swapped onto the 10 speed Record that I bought. At that point I sold the '99 9 speed to a buddy who was wanting to upgrade from his 1997 (I think - the old pointy hood design) 8 speed Ergo. He's still using my '99 levers today - and we're both pretty high mileage riders (by amateur standards).

So, what would you prefer - throw away crap or something where $50-$60 worth of servicing costs lets a well designed and built piece of equipment keep running?

And I say all of this as someone like you who has had great results with SRAM on the dirt (I run 8 year old X.0 grip shifters and rear derailleur - sadly matched to an older pattern XTR FD 'cos I've yet to see a decent SRAM FD - and they haven't missed a beat ... ) ... but I've seen so many friends who've bought SRAM equipped road bikes that have had problems with their gruppos that I'd never touch them.

And as for someone's comments about the pros and what they think ... I know of one Pro-tour rider who has been on both Shimano and (most recently) SRAM equipped teams. When his wife came to set up a new bike recently as far as he was concerned there was only one brand of gruppo that she was getting ... Campagnolo! Says a bit, ay ...

 

[The Gnome]

please Are there really people who spend more than 3 seasons on the same groupo anyway? If you have the same group you did 3 seasons ago you dont ride

Cafe talk/look? is that anything like grabbing a short black and leaning on your bike just to tell everyone that you rebuilt your Record group yourself?

Shimano: Trying hard to adapt their ergoshifting to a front derailleur that is designed around 1970 down tube friction shifting!

Wow...I guess I am not a rider then like you are...my first gruppo was on a Pinarello I bought in 85 and it lasted me 14 years...that was campy chorus...and the current I have on a lemond zurich is shimano ultegra which is from 99 to replace the still running pina (which is now retired to a winter trainer and still snapping along in my bike room to get some miles in when we are snowbound)...which makes 12 years now for the unfabulous, non cool steel lemond with mere ultegra......and I do I guess 5 to 6 thousand miles every year...

but hopefully some day, and altho I am nearing 50...I will be a real rider like you are!

 

[BroDeal]

On one of the forums I read someone has the signature, "There is a place for SRAM. On someone else's bike!"

 

[Reghere]

I moved from Ultegra to Force 1 year ago and have done 10,000 km+ with it.
I am not overly impressed. Shifting is not as good fullstop. Tolerances seem very tight and I seem to be readjusting all the time. Have had it back to the LBS many times to ensure hanger is straight, etc, etc. My mechanic (best in town) hates working on SRAM. I do not like the Front deraileur at all, the amount you have to throw the lever is more than Ultegra, and I find that there is a delay when going up to the big chainring. Only benefit over Ultegra was that I could shift down the cassette when doing a sprint.

I will stick with it for another year or 2 & change out the chain & cassette and the go with the Ultegra Di.

 

[dsut4392]

Definitely option 1.

I cracked the main indent ring inside my 1999 model Record Ergopower right hand lever in about 2005. So by that stage, it was already out of warranty.

Took it to my local bike shop who ordered the $10 -$20 part, spent an hour on servicing it and put it all back together. I rode it for another year and then swapped onto the 10 speed Record that I bought. At that point I sold the '99 9 speed to a buddy who was wanting to upgrade from his 1997 (I think - the old pointy hood design) 8 speed Ergo. He's still using my '99 levers today - and we're both pretty high mileage riders (by amateur standards).

So, what would you prefer - throw away crap or something where $50-$60 worth of servicing costs lets a well designed and built piece of equipment keep running?

Like I said, not likely a time, cost or hassle saver for many; you're one of the few, and you only saved money, at the cost of more time and hassle. I don't like throwing away crap either, but after 6 years of use I'm usually more than ready for a change anyway, and it seems you were too as you upgraded a year later.

And I say all of this as someone like you who has had great results with SRAM on the dirt (I run 8 year old X.0 grip shifters and rear derailleur - sadly matched to an older pattern XTR FD 'cos I've yet to see a decent SRAM FD - and they haven't missed a beat ... ) ... but I've seen so many friends who've bought SRAM equipped road bikes that have had problems with their gruppos that I'd never touch them.

Never is a long time...remember back when that whole suspension fork thing was "never going to catch on"? First generation grip shifts were awful, but they've been great for the last 10 years (since they got rid of the plastic b-knuckle like on my 9.0SL derailleur that flops about on the back of my XC hardtail) and many people still think they're the same as the ones that sucked way back in 1994...

 

[dsut4392]

What's it's about is I own a shop that does service primarily and of the bicycles we sell, we start with a bike fit, buy a frame and build it in the shop. No bikes or wheels for us that come in boxes. So, we are not beholding to any great big bike maker with a legion of product managers, bean counters and marketeers who then tell sales lizards what to say.

I see what works and what doesn't everyday. Campagnolo and shimano is well thought out, well designed, very functional, reliable. sram is about red frogs, whizbangery in marketing and poor reliability...with a tremendous warranty policy-they will warranty anything for any reason at any time. They would rather replace than re-design stuff that works better.

And for the dsut gent, Yes, as a Campagnolo Pro Shop, I do have lever innards. To take off and replace when it breaks is not the answer. Would you drive a car that had a transmission that broke often, even if it had a great warranty?

Are you offering me a free Ferrari, with a great warranty service?;-P Yes please!

What proportion of bike shops are like yours, and stock a full range of lever innards? Do you think there's even one in every town? Where I live it would take weeks to get a part.

I generally respect your posts, but as a Campag pro shop, that doesn't sell 'box-bikes', don't you think you have just a wee conflict of interest to be on the forums beating up on SRAM? If it were only the double-tap levers you were complaining about I could take you seriously, since as a shop you no doubt handle plenty whereas I only see the bikes of the guys I ride with. But when you go on about the whole company being about "red frogs, whizbangery in marketing, and poor reliability", which is plainly not true, you lose your credibility. Might I suggest you head over to this thread and reconsider what you're trying to say?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Are you offering me a free Ferrari, with a great warranty service?;-P Yes please!

What proportion of bike shops are like yours, and stock a full range of lever innards? Do you think there's even one in every town? Where I live it would take weeks to get a part.

I generally respect your posts, but as a Campag pro shop, that doesn't sell 'box-bikes', don't you think you have just a wee conflict of interest to be on the forums beating up on SRAM? If it were only the double-tap levers you were complaining about I could take you seriously, since as a shop you no doubt handle plenty whereas I only see the bikes of the guys I ride with. But when you go on about the whole company being about "red frogs, whizbangery in marketing, and poor reliability", which is plainly not true, you lose your credibility. Might I suggest you head over to this thread and reconsider what you're trying to say?

Where do you live?

Yep, Campagnolo NA does a poor job getting the 'word' out about Campagnolo and most bike shop owners, service managers and wrenches are lazy about trying to be the 'bike experts' they are supposed to be.

Campagnolo isn't a black art, small bits are not expensive, working on it is the same as others. It's just cables, pulleys and chains.

Conflict of interest? I am not directed by nor constrained by any company with regards to my opinion. I work for none of the component makers, call 'em as I see 'em. Some things about Campagnolo I don't like and I say so(poor gearing choices, dumbed down Athena and below levers/group) and shimano also-lack of compatibility, DI2 expense, etc. BUT lack of reliability and marketing slickness is not shimano nor Campagnolo's weak points. It is sram's.

I see what I see,I like Campagnolo and shimano for road, I am not impressed with sram. Ride what you wish, if it works for you, groovey, but I am in the biz of fixing this stuff and when somebody asks my opinion, from what I see everyday, I give it to them. BTW-I don't like Mavic wheels either. Don't sell them either.

I work on many sram equipped bicycles(just don't sell them). I have warrantied perhaps 15 levers, 3 rear ders, couple of cranks, more than one BB. Never sold a bicycle with road sram in the 4 years that sram has been around.

Bike shops where these bikes were sold are reluctant to warranty these, some even say the whole bike has to go back, for a busted lever. People here come to me because I will take care of them, where the LBS, often will do so grudgingly or not at all(again, no bikesouttaboxes for me, so don't have big, bad bike company standing on my back).

I have talked to team wrenches, bicycle product managers, big bike part distributors...and they all seem to agree with me on sram. Their MTB stuff works well, their road stuff has a way to go.

Just went to that thread on Cyclingnews forum, before this thread, I know the guy that started that thread. What are ya trying to say, I should 'watch what I say cuz 'they' are watching, and I'll get into some sort of trouble? Balderdash.
Look up what the 'I' of IBD means.

(Independent, just in case).

 

[kiwirider]

Like I said, not likely a time, cost or hassle saver for many; you're one of the few, and you only saved money, at the cost of more time and hassle. I don't like throwing away crap either, but after 6 years of use I'm usually more than ready for a change anyway, and it seems you were too as you upgraded a year later.

What planet are you on? How can you suggest that taking a bike to a shop for a simple, hour or so service is "time and hassle"?? What sort of mechanical servicing do your bikes get (whether you do it yourself or use your LBS)??

If that really is too much hassle in your world, it must get really expensive for you if you ever break spokes or have problems with axles/bearings etc. I mean, your logic would say buy a new wheelset rather than replace the spoke ...

(Update: For various reasons I wanted to change the internals on the Veloce on my cross bike Ergolevers. I had arranged to take a 29er for a test ride yesterday. On the off chance I took my cross bike to the LBS when I picked up the 29er from them. Came back after a 2 hour test ride and all was changed over. Man ... what a hassle that was, ay???!!! )

And I wasn't actually "ready to change". I only change gear when it's worn out or when there is a true advance - and while adding an 18 into my cassette has been useful (the only difference that going from 9 to 10 has meant for me, as I still run a 23-12 cassette), I don't consider that sufficient grounds to change. I have to confess to that simply being an impulse buy because I liked the look of the carbon levers ... sad reason, but hey, I'm human ...

Never is a long time...remember back when that whole suspension fork thing was "never going to catch on"? First generation grip shifts were awful, but they've been great for the last 10 years (since they got rid of the plastic b-knuckle like on my 9.0SL derailleur that flops about on the back of my XC hardtail) and many people still think they're the same as the ones that sucked way back in 1994...

OK, I'll acknowledge that absolutism isn't a good position to agrue from, so will revise my comment ...

As long as I have a choice and unless SRAM bring their road gruppo up to the same standards as Campag - including supplying spare parts like Campag do - I'll never use their road gruppos. How's that??

 

[Benotti69]

What planet are you on? How can you suggest that taking a bike to a shop for a simple, hour or so service is "time and hassle"?? What sort of mechanical servicing do your bikes get (whether you do it yourself or use your LBS)??

If that really is too much hassle in your world, it must get really expensive for you if you ever break spokes or have problems with axles/bearings etc. I mean, your logic would say buy a new wheelset rather than replace the spoke ...

And I wasn't actually "ready to change". I only change gear when it's worn out or when there is a true advance - and while adding an 18 into my cassette has been useful (the only difference that going from 9 to 10 has meant for me, as I still run a 23-12 cassette), I don't consider that sufficient grounds to change. I have to confess to that simply being an impulse buy because I liked the look of the carbon levers ... sad reason, but hey, I'm human ...



OK, I'll acknowledge that absolutism isn't a good position to agrue from, so will revise my comment ...

As long as I have a choice and unless SRAM bring their road gruppo up to the same standards as Campag - including supplying spare parts like Campag do - I'll never use their road gruppos. How's that??

That's sounds good.

 

[ultimobici]

ElChingon ^^David Millar in the Giro, breakaway going for a stage win and he threw the bike over the barriers, was it 2010 or 2009?

Problem is he was on Dura Ace!

 

[cawright1375]

I moved over to SRAM Red from Dura Ace 7800 when I got my S5 in September. The 7800 was about 4 years old and the chainrings were getting to the point that they would have been replaced early in the coming year. Initially I was hesitant about the double tap and switching to a different gruppo because I was comfortable with DA. I've put around 600 miles on the S5/ Red gruppo and have enjoyed every minute of it. Once I got the hang of the difference in shifting it has been smooth sailing. I now like it much more than DA and unless something really, really catastrophic happens, I won't be switching back.

Oh and I'm not an employee of SRAM nor did I get the gruppo/ bike from a family members shop, so no reason for me love it when I don't need to.

 

[dolophonic]

My bike's gruppo is a complete mash up.
Campy front DR
Cannondale Crank
Sram Red shifters,breaks and rear mech

I have put a ridiculous amount of miles on this set up and have to say i like the red shifters.
Some of the other issues may be true. The red cassette may be noisy but will outlast Dura ace/ ultegra x2 at least. plus its lighter.
The chains are so so and i never used their other bits.

All in all mix and match/ cannibal style is working for me.

Plus don't go there with Andy's miss shift blaming SRAM .. wasn't Conta and Vino on SRAM too ? they seemed to have no issues.. get over that one..
A poor craftsman blames his tools.. we all know that one.

 

[cawright1375]

@ Bustedknuckle -

Your shop isn't in Concord, NH by chance is it? Your process sounds very similiar to a shop I visited back in August when I was bike shopping. I spent a very enjoyable hour discussing Pinarello's with the owner of the joint and his shop mechanic.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

@ Bustedknuckle -

Your shop isn't in Concord, NH by chance is it? Your process sounds very similiar to a shop I visited back in August when I was bike shopping. I spent a very enjoyable hour discussing Pinarello's with the owner of the joint and his shop mechanic.

No sir, look west.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

My bike's gruppo is a complete mash up.
Campy front DR
Cannondale Crank
Sram Red shifters,breaks and rear mech

I have put a ridiculous amount of miles on this set up and have to say i like the red shifters.
Some of the other issues may be true. The red cassette may be noisy but will outlast Dura ace/ ultegra x2 at least. plus its lighter.
The chains are so so and i never used their other bits.

All in all mix and match/ cannibal style is working for me.

Plus don't go there with Andy's miss shift blaming SRAM .. wasn't Conta and Vino on SRAM too ? they seemed to have no issues.. get over that one..
A poor craftsman blames his tools.. we all know that one.

A smart craftsman buys good tools.

 

[gregod]

serious question: how is SRAM pronounced?

is it "sram" like slam with an r instead of an l?

or is it "ess ram"?

or something else?

cheers.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

serious question: how is SRAM pronounced?

is it "sram" like slam with an r instead of an l?

or is it "ess ram"?

or something else?

cheers.

it's pronounced, shouldveboughtcampyorshimanoinstead.

Really though, It sounds just as it looks.

 

[ElChingon]

serious question: how is SRAM pronounced?

is it "sram" like slam with an r instead of an l?

or is it "ess ram"?

or something else?

cheers.

Scram, in my part of the woods

 

[gregod]

i still want to know. is it "sram" or "ess ram".

little help?

 

[42x16ss]

i still want to know. is it "sram" or "ess ram".

little help?

Option number 1

 

[k_gibbo]

Can SRAM really be that bad??? There sure seem to be a LOT of SRAM in the pro tour.....