Stage 16: Ponte Di Legno-Val Martello/Martelltal (139 km)

[seldon71]

I would be very interested to hear from Geniez...

He was with group Quintana at the time when split formed, but let them go.

Was it because he couldn't match their pace downhill or was he told "not to take risks due neutralization".

Very important "witness"

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Or neither, but I find it hard to believe that half of the teams are lying deliberately (including on of the 'winners', Garmin). It's more likely that the teams that are now speaking about no neutralisation whatsoever either didn't hear the message, interpreted it differently or their communication with the riders were far from ideal, or they tried something and waited for the organizers to call it off (this is very unlikely IMO, I'm leaning towards the communication issues).

It's probably communication being poor from organisers, some differing interpretations, and Europcar/Movistar/Garmin played to the whistle. The whistle may or may not have gone, but out of their earshot, so they continued to play, and then the organisers decided they hadn't blown the whistle after all. You can throw Ag2r in there too because of Vuillermoz.

Quintana had 1'32 17km from the summit. This came down slightly shortly after that, in fact, then the gap went back out again due to the poor cooperation in the maglia rosa group. The other 3 minutes are his. Unless he wins by less than that, then this shouldn't overshadow his win more than Chaingate.

And it's also definitely not worse than Chaingate, because the organizers must take at least part of the blame for this, it was a situation of their making. Chaingate is all on Alberto, if you think he should have stopped.

 

[ILovecycling]

I think the bottom line here is that stage results dont reflect actual strength of riders.

If Quintana took a minute here (possible although fairly doubtful since he wouldnt attack farther than 5 kilometres from the finish and Hesjedal still held on to him) he would still have over 1.5 minute loss to a leader which in no way guarantees a win with just 3 hard stages left and would surely make for some fireworks.

And seriously, stop with fanboyism here and try to look at things objectively.

rather you stop with bs,he would have gain at least 1.45 probably near 2 (to Rigo) minutes as he would be fresher.And why on earth he would have attack only 5k to go if everybody looked cooked about 15km and he was strong,doesnt make sense at all.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

To the critics of Nairo:
Wrong assumptions all over the place...
1.) When Nairo and the MR group finished the descent it must have been clear to everybody that racing went on, even if thinking there was a neutralisation before. Thus it´s a poor excuse by the sore losers. Uran could have taken the lead to keep the gap small. He didn´t. His mistake (certainly out of power) to let the others work for him.
2.) But there was no neutralisation. Riders should not attack was the announcement. Nairo, Rolland etc. weren´t attacking. The MR group wasn´t either. The only difference was that the Nairo group went downhill faster. You can´t blame them for that. They followed the red flag by the rules. The one to blame is solely Uran for not keeping up with Nairo.
3.) Even if the MR group was together with Nairo and Hesj (we could assume Rolland would have attacked sooner than later) at the last climb (in a group of 13 riders then), Nairo would have attacked. He gained 1+ minute on Rolland, why shouldn´t he gain the same amount on suffering Uran, Evans and Co.? Remember guys: Nairo would have ridden in protection of the group thus saving energy. OTOH he was alone in the wind 90% in reality and still gained an extra 2 1/2 minutes on the last climb. Likely the same would have happened if having saved energy in a protected 13-Men-Group.

Conclusion: However you guys twist it, Nairo did a legit great ride. May discount 2 minutes for the descent, but he´d still have ridden away from the main contenders on the last climb.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think the bottom line here is that stage results dont reflect actual strength of riders.

If Quintana took a minute here (possible although fairly doubtful since he wouldnt attack farther than 5 kilometres from the finish and Hesjedal still held on to him) he would still have over 1.5 minute loss to a leader which in no way guarantees a win with just 3 hard stages left and would surely make for some fireworks.

And seriously, stop with fanboyism here and try to look at things objectively.

If Quintana went only 5km out though, his attack would have been harder because he wouldn't have been pacing for 15km beforehand.

I am looking at it objectively. I don't think Nairito did anything wrong. I don't think Alberto did anything wrong in 2010, because Schleck is a hypocrite who thought nothing of Saxo neutralizing the race in stage 2 and then taking advantage of his brother's crash the next day. I don't think Movistar did anything wrong in pushing on the pace on the Paris-Nice descent where Leipheimer crashed; Leipheimer lost out because he sucks at descending, Movistar attacked to put pressure on weak descenders. I also don't think Sky did anything wrong by leaving Valverde behind when he crashed in the crosswinds before Valdezcaray, and the only reason I criticised them for it was because they were hypocrites because they whined about Movistar at Paris-Nice.

The race organizers dropped the ball. The stats selton posted show that the Quintana group only descended at the same pace as the race leader, so they descended safely. They didn't leave any group, they just continued to ride. As Foxxy said, they followed the red flag, they descended safely, they did everything that the organisers asked them, or so it seemed.

I don't think that what Nairo did was right. I just don't think it was wrong. The poor decisions and communication of the race organizers allowed for a situation to develop, and the onus was on them to resolve it.

 

[arvc40]

The race organization should have just stayed out of it, let the pros go down the damn descent and sort it out for themselves.

Modern safety! I mean it wasn't as if there was snow on the road.

Exactly, race from point A to B as fast as possible. Only thing that should cause this sort of **** up is obstruction in road.

The Winner today proved there was no need for a stop in play.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I think the bottom line here is that stage results dont reflect actual strength of riders.

If Quintana took a minute here (possible although fairly doubtful since he wouldnt attack farther than 5 kilometres from the finish and Hesjedal still held on to him) he would still have over 1.5 minute loss to a leader which in no way guarantees a win with just 3 hard stages left and would surely make for some fireworks.

And seriously, stop with fanboyism here and try to look at things objectively.

literally verything you say here is (anti) fanboyism and too ridiculous to even respond to.

 

[CycloAndy]

It just sucks that we have to have this discussion now. Whatever happens it will take some shine of the victory and I don't think any rider is to blame for that

This. Quintana shouldn't be blamed but it will be taken into account long after the giro is done unless he takes more time elsewhere. Shame it wasn't just Evans that lost out as then it would have been fair game. The MTT will prove one way or another who is the boss, and my guess is Quintana will come out on top.

 

[Rajna31]

It's probably communication being poor from organisers, some differing interpretations, and Europcar/Movistar/Garmin played to the whistle. The whistle may or may not have gone, but out of their earshot, so they continued to play, and then the organisers decided they hadn't blown the whistle after all. You can throw Ag2r in there too because of Vuillermoz.

Quintana had 1'32 17km from the summit. This came down slightly shortly after that, in fact, then the gap went back out again due to the poor cooperation in the maglia rosa group. The other 3 minutes are his. Unless he wins by less than that, then this shouldn't overshadow his win more than Chaingate.

And it's also definitely not worse than Chaingate, because the organizers must take at least part of the blame for this, it was a situation of their making. Chaingate is all on Alberto, if you think he should have stopped.

I'm not blaming Quintana or any of his allies, but your logic ("the other 3 minutes are his") is flawed as others have already explained (if Hesjedal was able to follow him almost all the way, then probably Uran & co. could have hung on as well). The organizers are clearly the ones who should take the responsibility for being so unclear.

The chasing teams are also to blame because even though there were some good descenders in the Quintana group, they should have been able to bridge the gap in the valley as nobody from that group was a "diesel", it's not like they chased Cancellara and Tony Martin and yet they were even slower than Quintana and his allies.

So I think that actually almost everyone is at fault for this BUT Quintana. However, he clearly had an unhealthy advantage because of some mistakes, and even though that made this stage very enjoyable, it's not perfectly fair.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Telling riders not to attack does not give a free bonus for those who choose to stop for clothes and tea. Stopping is not holding your position in your group. As soon as the word of the supposed "neutralization" came out, it was immediately obvious that there was no clear way for the officials to enforce it. Teams were stupid if they blindly trusted that everything would be brought back together when they saw some guys pushing on - Cataldo (I guess Sky didn't get the memo either), Quintana/Rolland/Hesj group, et al

 

[MotorRouleur]

For all of you brats whining that this wasn't a valid, hard-fought, epic stage, this thread is neutralized.

 

[seldon71]

To my earlier comment about Geniez' comments being highly interesting : FdJ-website just states "him having been unable to stay with Quintana, Rolland etc. in descent. Nothing about neutralization or dirty play"

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

And it's also definitely not worse than Chaingate, because the organizers must take at least part of the blame for this, it was a situation of their making. Chaingate is all on Alberto, if you think he should have stopped.

Chaingate, Chaingate... that´s a hyped media thing b/c Schleck was crying to the press, as always. And the naive fan buys that crap. Schleck thinks races must be stopped when it rains, on descents, on cobbles, in bad weather, and when his big pampering siz isn´t next to him.

This is no Kindergarten, but pro cycling. Evans didn´t wait after the big crash earlier this Giro, still no one complained afterwards. LA didn´t wait for AC in 2009. Froome didn´t at Vuelta 2012. Only Ulle waited in 2003, and he paid a big price for that.

Not all goes planned in sports/cycling. Otherwise you could put riders on a home ergometer and hand the win to the guy with the best computer numbers.... $hit happens, live with it, don´t complain, and fight on. Like the above (outside of crybaby) mentioned did.

Today the brave prevailed. Rolland and Hesj were special heroes. Never hide this Giro, but tried their luck with attacks. Today they collected. Nairo was hit hard by early time loses, kept quiet, suffered trou sickness, and rode alone in the wind for felt 2 hrs. The sore losers OTOH soft pedaled hiding in a group of domestiques...

 

[yespatterns]

Basically, if you arent sure if you should race or not, then RACE. Everything gets sorted in the wash, and cajones win races. Uran (like Cadel) is on the wrong side of the bell curve right now, so thats pretty much a non-issue. My only real complaint is that the action in the MR group was so subdued. Riders knew what the situation was and should have (if able, after the terrible conditions, and two previous mountains) attacked attacked attacked. So in short, I'll reiterate: Cajones Win Races.

 

[Koba80]

We only need another 60 pages for the record, we can do it!

 

[hughmoore]

Basically, if you arent sure if you should race or not, then RACE. Everything gets sorted in the wash, and cajones win races. Uran (like Cadel) is on the wrong side of the bell curve right now, so thats pretty much a non-issue. My only real complaint is that the action in the MR group was so subdued. Riders knew what the situation was and should have (if able, after the terrible conditions, and two previous mountains) attacked attacked attacked. So in short, I'll reiterate: Cajones Win Races.

I agree, Uran should have been on the front of chase group trying to defend his lead.



Hugh

 

[Butterhead]

Clearly this is the organizers responsibility and fault.
It´s clear as we both saw and heard that the stage was neutralized after stelvio and the decent, no doubt about that.
The problem was they couldn´t control it and just let it go.
And now they try to run from the facts, I´m pretty sure neither Evans or Uran would have lost that time on the decent as they did if they knew nothing had been neutralized, watching Uran on the decent was like watching an old lady on sunday stroll, it was clear he was in no hurry at all.

I have no doubt Quintana would have won the stage, but question is if he could have gained 2.5 minutes under the normal circumstances, and I doubt that very much.

It´s a bitter way of deciding this giro, but done is done, the stage had ended and the results stands, its just to bad to watch a race director not living up to his responsibilities, and now denies the order were ever given.

Very poor.

And here´s a proof Quintana ignored the directions. this is from the first km of the decent from Stevio, a red flag.

 

[Inquitus]

Quintana only put 8 seconds into Hyjesdal today, it's hard to see how his performance can be extrapolated to indicate he would have put big time into the main GC contenders but for the confusion that he took advantage of.

 

[arvc40]

I know what Armstrong would have done if he where Quintana and I know what he would have done if he'd been in Uran's position.

Quintana got part one correct.

Uran and Co ****ed up !

I use Armstrong as example because let's face it, he was friggin awesome. No school like the old school and he was the ****ing headmaster !.

Even when it meant cutting across farm fields ! lol

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

The bottom line is that Quintana paid attention while Uran and others did not. When there is confusion, some get it sorted out quickly, while others get lost in the haze. Quintana, Rolland, and Hesjedal were in the former category. They just kept racing.

Not only that, but they added time on the Uran group after the descent. I don't want to see BMC whine about it. They had no problem drilling it when Quintana was behind the crash in the early stages.

This was an epic stage and the strongest rider won.

 

[yetiyeti]

I think the reason that Quintana took such little time from Hesjedal and Rolland is because he didn't care if he dragged them along and so he never bothered to put in a true attack designed to ride them off his wheel. It's clear that he was the strongest rider today by a significant margin, and I believe he could have dropped any group he was in on the last climb with an attack on a steeper grade.

I think he could have put in the same amount of time on that climb even if Uran et al had been in his group simply because I think he could have executed an attack that nobody could match - and he likely would have been out of the wind for longer and would have had even more gas for the bulk of the final climb.

If Uran et al had felt "cheated" and were strong enough then they should have gotten after it and done something about it. I don't think their lack of burst had anything to do with feeling defeated, I just don't think they had the legs to respond.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

You guys actually read, or just repeat the crap?
Sure he gained only 8 secs on Hesj, but also 1+ mins on Rolland (what was it, the last 2.500 m IIRC)! After being in the wind (!!) for the last what, 60 kms?
If he arrived (realatively fresh, b/c protected) on the last climb in the group of 13, he´d have destroyed the field either way.
Just accept that Hesj did a heck of a ride, while Uran, Evans and Rolland were cooked

 

[red_flanders]

You guys actually read, or just repeat the crap?
Sure he gained only 8 secs on Hesj, but also 1+ mins on Rolland (what was it, the last 2.500 m IIRC)! After being in the wind (!!) for the last what, 60 kms?
If he arrived (realatively fresh, b/c protected) on the last climb in the group of 13, he´d have destroyed the field either way.
Just accept that Hesj did a heck of a ride, while Uran, Evans and Rolland were cooked

Agree with that.

Can't ignore the fact that the race org cocked it up big time, but I don't blame Quintana, and I think you're right that he'd have gained a bunch of time and also that Ryder did a great ride. Gutsy as hell.

 

[Pippo_San]

Completely agree with the posts above. Uran & co. completely ****ed up, thanks to the stupidity of their DS probably.
That's their fault, a race is a race, and I bet someone like Nibbles would've never ever let him escape just like that.

Sometimes you need to have big heart and big cojones to win. Quintana had both.

 

[hrotha]

Urán himself doesn't seem to complain much:
http://www.biciciclismo.com/cas/site/noticias-ficha.asp?id=72062

"On the Stelvio I heard Davide Bramati say that the descent would be controlled by motorbikes with a red flag to ensure the safety of the riders and that we'd be allowed to keep our position during the descent without attacking. He told me to put on my raincoat and to stay alert no matter what. With 300 or 400 meters to the top I grabbed my jacket from one of our soigneurs. I managed to put it on before reaching the top so I didn't have to stop at that time, unlike some of my teammates. Then I started the descent, but I didn't see any motorbikes. During the descent I saw Majka and the other guys, but I didn't realize Quintana wasn't there. Just a few kilometers later Bramati told me the gap was one minute. So we set up the chase. That's how it happened. I think under normal circumstances the story of this race could probably have been different. Now I'm 1:41 down on Quintana in the GC, but the Giro isn't over yet. We're going to keep pushing forward, we're going to try to get the maglia rosa back. We haven't given up on the fight for the pink jersey."