Stage 16: Ponte Di Legno-Val Martello/Martelltal (139 km)

[Oldman]

I agree the stage would have been quiet different if everyone had acknowledged the race was neutralized. Even if Quintana thought it was not, he would have been told on the way down, or at least realized when none of the other favorites came up after decent.

I am sure Quintana would still have taken between 1-2 minutes on Uran and he would still have had a great chance to win the Giro over the next stages. All he did now, is pretty much upset everyone else in the Peloton, so he better hope that he and his team is strong enough over the rest of the race, which I do believe they will be, unless everyone gang up on him.

As much as everyone blames the other favorites as they should have known, I do find it amazing that all the rest of the teams said they were informed, and why would RCS apologize if they were sure they had not said anything?

But all that aside, what I don’t understand, is how none of the teams took any responsibility, except Saxo and to some extend AG2R. If I were Majka I would be ****ed, spending all his team trying to catch up and then he attacks and no one wants to help. They then attack him later and drop him (Kelderman, Aru) so they are all riding for minor placing’s and allowing Rolland and to some extend Hesjedal to come back in top 3-5 contention. I thought it would have been smarter, if Aru, Majka, Kelderman and Pozo worked together, minimized loss to Rolland and Hesjedal while putting serious time into Uran and Evans, both looked cooked, they could then attack each other on last 1 km for smaller gains.

Having raced in conditions like this one truth is common; survival stages can be skewed by minor technical issues. For Quintana it is a lot easier to navigate with several riders than to take initiative from a large field. He may have climbed well but being spotted several minutes on terrain that is known as his tactical weakness (descending) hardly makes the race fair.
Don't blame him but the officiating and race control definitely soured the race for Nairo and the other competitors. Sucks.

 

[Escarabajo]

This thread is about to reach the same count as the Chris Froome thread!!

 

[Sciocco]

This thread sure kept me busy at work.. not doing any work!

I do not see any reason why the maglia rosa group could not pull back, or at least limit better than they did, the break, uran mentioned he knew while he was still on the descent even(?). I always believe in racing on until the RD actually stops them and the RD had every opportunity to, maybe uran(and that group) kept assuming they would at some point be neutralized? Should have taken it up himself(themselves).

I suspect there will still be some drama still to come.

The BMC statement and others are kind of funny, this is the top of the sport at the Giro d'italia, where pure insanity can happen on the roads and you have to drill it from N. Ireland to the flight home. If you sit up at all, well either hope everyone else does or you are done.

 

[damian13ster]

As it should. Behavior from Movistar, Europacar and race directors was about as classless as Froome's interviews. They had to know at some point during descent that something unusual is going on, surely other DS let them know what they think about it or at least race director explained what happened, yet they completely ignored it.

It really sucks that there is so much money involved in this, sponsor goals, etc. because that is going to stop anyone from protesting in any other way than just by writing.

And in the interview Uran does say that he had no idea that Quintana is gone and thought they are not racing the descent so pretty much everybody except Movistar, Europcar and Ag2r already stated that this stage was bogus. No matter how blinded you are by fanboyism that cant be ignored

 

[thehook]

For me watching the race. My first thoughts when Lloyd said on the broadcast that the descent was neutralized. I though it was a good move. Then I see Moviestar/Quintana & Cataldo bombing the descent. I was like WTF?

Not to blame the riders. However in my opinion. The Race Referee's CAR should have been at the top to stop the race down. And pace the riders down. Give the breakaway riders there time at the bottom and let the peleton start after.

You cannot commit half way. And that is what the Organizers/Referee did today.

IMHO. Nairo was far from spectacular on the climb today. I do not think he would have gained much time at all if they all start the finale together. He will have to live with that if he wins the Giro.

As far as BMC's letter. Well they dropped the whole peleton after a crash and gained mucho time. They should zip the lip.

 

[yespatterns]

As it should. Behavior from Movistar, Europacar and race directors was about as classless as Froome's interviews. They had to know at some point during descent that something unusual is going on, surely other DS let them know what they think about it or at least race director explained what happened, yet they completely ignored it.

It really sucks that there is so much money involved in this, sponsor goals, etc. because that is going to stop anyone from protesting in any other way than just by writing.

And in the interview Uran does say that he had no idea that Quintana is gone and thought they are not racing the descent so pretty much everybody except Movistar, Europcar and Ag2r already stated that this stage was bogus. No matter how blinded you are by fanboyism that cant be ignored

Man, you either have a boner for uran, or just hate quintana. anyone who has kept up on cycling in the last decade or so knows that Jim O. is the last person that should be crying foul.

 

[42x16ss]

Good for BMC. Now OPQS and Saxo should issue a statement as well!

Don't say Quintana was bravo or blah blah blah and Uran was careless. If under clear circumstance, no one would have let Quintana go. So, the loser was not whining without a reason. And clearly, this should not have happened in a huge race like Giro.

Boo f#$king hoo!

All I hear is "WAAH, Quintana and the others were smart enough to keep up with the lead moto, WAAAAH, our riders are too stupid to think for themselves, WAAAAAAH we want special treatment, WAAAH WAAAH WAAAH, if this happened in the USA we'd get Weisel to fix it up fast... WAAAH!"

All the other guys had to do was follow the moto, yet only 6 guys had the presence of mind to do so.

 

[blaxland]

unfortunately this has changed what was to be an epic stage in the giro.If this isnt a good reason to get rid of race radio's,then what is?lets hope this doesnt happen again in future races.

 

[hfer07]

This thread sure kept me busy at work.. not doing any work!

I do not see any reason why the maglia rosa group could not pull back, or at least limit better than they did, the break, uran mentioned he knew while he was still on the descent even(?). I always believe in racing on until the RD actually stops them and the RD had every opportunity to, maybe uran(and that group) kept assuming they would at some point be neutralized? Should have taken it up himself(themselves).

I suspect there will still be some drama still to come.

The BMC statement and others are kind of funny, this is the top of the sport at the Giro d'italia, where pure insanity can happen on the roads and you have to drill it from N. Ireland to the flight home. If you sit up at all, well either hope everyone else does or you are done.

There were 48 kilometers to make up the difference between then & Quintana & CO if they really wanted to do so. it was 28k of descend followed by a 20k flat & descend terrain before the last climb- and Uran was already told during the descend of the stelvio about the gap-the same goes to the other teams.

 

[42x16ss]

As far as BMC's letter. Well they dropped the whole peleton after a crash and gained mucho time. They should zip the lip.

Damn right they should. It's the only reason Evans is still top 10.

 

[42x16ss]

There were 48 kilometers to make up the difference between then & Quintana & CO if they really wanted to do so. it was 28k of descend followed by a 20k flat & descend terrain before the last climb- and Uran was already told during the descend of the stelvio about the gap-the same goes to the other teams.

That's right. Rigo and the rest only have themselves to blame.

 

[karlboss]

This is what I think I've gathered so far from watching live and listening to some of the talk after.
Horrible conditions.
Race organisers said 'to avoid that there are attack on the descent, to ensure that the riders hold their position and avoid taking huge risks. They should hold that position until the official lower the red flags."
Twitter said neutralised.
Some riders read this as Neutralised, others knew nothing about it, and some it seems read it as don't pass the motos that have red flags
The Quintana group followed the bike with the red flag while the others lost ground.
1 minute difference after the decent. Opened to about 2 and fell to 1:30, and then started to grow again. Quintana took a minute or two so on the climb up depending on who we base it on.

More or less right?

 

[red_flanders]

This is what I think I've gathered so far from watching live and listening to some of the talk after.
Horrible conditions.
Race organisers said 'to avoid that there are attack on the descent, to ensure that the riders hold their position and avoid taking huge risks. They should hold that position until the official lower the red flags."
Twitter said neutralised.
Some riders read this as Neutralised, others knew nothing about it, and some it seems read it as don't pass the motos that have red flags
The Quintana group followed the bike with the red flag while the others lost ground.
1 minute difference after the decent. Opened to about 2 and fell to 1:30, and then started to grow again. Quintana took a minute or two so on the climb up depending on who we base it on.

More or less right?

You forgot the moral outrage.

 

[yespatterns]

You forgot the moral outrage.

And the immoral outrage, too!

 

[red_flanders]

And the immoral outrage, too!

Even better!

 

[damian13ster]

Man, you either have a boner for uran, or just hate quintana. anyone who has kept up on cycling in the last decade or so knows that Jim O. is the last person that should be crying foul.

I got some news for you. Hopefully you are not going to fall off your chair. Giro d Italia is not a race between Quintana and Uran!!
On the last climb Aru beat Quintana and he was in front of him in GC. Not so long ago Quintana was wheelsucking Pozzovivo, and guess what: Pozzo was in front of him in GC. Majka wasnt losing much and also had advantage in GC. Uran is consistently losing time and he could be passed by those guys in no time, same with Evans.

And yes, I didnt like what BMC did on Monte Cassino but that doesnt in any way affect my judgement of this situation and I am still not impressed by Quintana at all for reasons stated before. And stop nitpicking certain DS that did something wrong in the past. Pretty much all of the teams thought it was neutralized and no matter whether you like it or not, not all of them are idiots so there was obviously something there, as is confirmed by the records from race radio.

 

[Publicus]

This is what I think I've gathered so far from watching live and listening to some of the talk after.
Horrible conditions.
Race organisers said 'to avoid that there are attack on the descent, to ensure that the riders hold their position and avoid taking huge risks. They should hold that position until the official lower the red flags."
Twitter said neutralised.
Some riders read this as Neutralised, others knew nothing about it, and some it seems read it as don't pass the motos that have red flags
The Quintana group followed the bike with the red flag while the others lost ground.
1 minute difference after the decent. Opened to about 2 and fell to 1:30, and then started to grow again. Quintana took a minute or two so on the climb up depending on who we base it on.

More or less right?

Actually what happened, based upon the official statement, was the Race Director's instruction apparently was incorrectly translated from Italian to English/French which created the impression that some or all of the descent was neutralized (obviously not all of the directors arrived this erroneous interpretation). The official Giro twitter account posted that the descent had been neutralized, which is what various commentators on here, Daniel Lloyd on Eurosport and others reported. Subsequently the Giro twitter account said the descent wasn't neutralized and deleted its tweet initially reporting the neutralization.

It's not clear why some teams claim not to have heard the communication, but it was given (albeit incorrectly) as noted in the official Giro communication.

EDIT: The Giro communication I referenced above:

Giro officials released a statement late Tuesday: “In consideration of audio recordings of instructions relayed to [team directors] during today’s stage, the directors of the Giro d’Italia would like to clarify that Race Radio provided an inaccurate interpretation of the indications stipulated by the directors. As previously stated, the intention was to guarantee rider safety during the first section of the descent (the first six hairpins, approximately 1500 m) of the Passo dello Stelvio, where visibility was restricted due to low cloud and fog. At no point did Race Radio or the Directors of the Giro make reference to the possible neutralization of any part of the descent.”

EDIT #2: I'll have to find the tweet from a journalist earlier today that made clear that there was a translation over race radio. I want to say it was Daniel Lloyd. I'll update when I find it.

EDIT #3: here's the tweet:

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Following

Daniel LloydVerified account
‏@daniellloyd1
Race radio which I listened to today was lady translating into Eng/Frnch. 99% certain neutralisation was said, is there a recording of this?

Ok, now back to the outrage

 

[luckyboy]

Inaccurate translation does seem the most likely way things happened

 

[RetroActive]

Actually what happened, based upon the official statement, was the Race Director's instruction apparently was incorrectly translated from Italian to English/French which created the impression that some or all of the descent was neutralized (obviously not all of the directors arrived this erroneous interpretation). The official Giro twitter account posted that the descent had been neutralized, which is what various commentators on here, Daniel Lloyd on Eurosport and others reported. Subsequently the Giro twitter account said the descent wasn't neutralized and deleted its tweet initially reporting the neutralization.

It's not clear why some teams claim not to have heard the communication, but it was given (albeit incorrectly) as noted in the official Giro communication.

EDIT: The Giro communication I referenced above:



EDIT #2: I'll have to find the tweet from a journalist earlier today that made clear that there was a translation over race radio. I want to say it was Daniel Lloyd. I'll update when I find it.

EDIT #3: here's the tweet:



Ok, now back to the outrage

So you're telling me people have prejudices? You also seem to being saying that people have miscommmunications? I'm shocked and outraged.

 

[luckyboy]

Inaccurate translation does seem the most likely way things happened

Anyone know who else was in the OPQS car with Bramati? Thought he would be listening to the Italian feed. He said he interpreted the message as being one of neutralisation

 

[RetroActive]

Anyone know who else was in the OPQS car with Bramati? Thought he would be listening to the Italian feed. He said he interpreted the message as being one of neutralisation

Are you being optimistic or not?

 

[Butterhead]

Now people begin to doubt what was said?
Lool I see the race directors spin is working perfectly.

During the broadcasting of the stage two commentators who both speaks fluent Italian both said the same thing, the decent was neutralized, and it was repeated again and again on the race radio, there were nothing to be mistaken about.
And why would a motor cycle ride in front of Quintana with a red flag in his hand waving it if it wasnt the case.

What seems to be the problem is that only some cars heard the message, or some say they didnt hear it for different reasons, but fact is, the decent was neutralized, and some riders decented accordingly to that fact.

My bet after have seeing the stage again and with the pictures that have been taking, then its my believe Quintana perfectly knew what was going on but took the chance and went for it. It´s not rocket science, if the organizers would stop him so be it, but if they didnt he already had the advantage.

You can´t blame the other DS for stopping or telling their riders to relax and look after them selves on the decent when the radio says its neutralized.

The biggest problem here is the race noobs couldnt control it, and it got out of hand so it was plan B, deny the message and keep racing.

 

[T-Nielsen]

Anyone know who else was in the OPQS car with Bramati? Thought he would be listening to the Italian feed. He said he interpreted the message as being one of neutralisation

The Danish commentators listening to the feed also heard it being neutralized. I assume it was in Italian as it is the commentators second language.

 

[rhubroma]

I'm not at all impressed with Quintana's tactic in this Giro.

He sat on Pozzovivo's wheel and when the Lucanian asked him to share the work, Nairo said he was incapable because at his limit; only to then surge away at the end to gain time.

That is a racing no, no and shows no class. If he had the energy to attack at the end, he had the energy to pull through before, but didn't.

It was obvious that the other GC contenders were not racing down the Stelvio, but, despite clear signs that he was "getting away" only because of it, Nairo insited in his move.

Again, no class. Period.

Now you can argue it however you want, but you can't say Quintana was unaware of how he was actually exploding the Giro.

My only cirtique of the MR was that he didn't show any leadership in the situation by going to the front on the descent to get control of the race, rather he was all too passive and tranquilo, which seems to be Uran's great flaw as a racer.

As I have already said, however, the race organization is the most to blame. Now the Giro is tainted and, unfortunately for the tifosi, it serves them right.

They should have just stayed out of it and let the riders go down the damn descent as they were able, without the not fortuitous interference. They are pros, not middle school kids.

 

[Jagartrott]

I think it's pretty classless to call the sports directors idiots, sore losers etc. for thinking the descent was neutralised. Clearly, some riders and directors thought the descent could and actually should be taken slowly. Add to that low visibility, people wearing the same rain coats and communication problems, and it's obvious that riders in the main group were surprised to find that Quintana was gone.

It's equally stupid to say that the 2.5 minutes Quintana gained on the uphill, would stick anyway. He probably was the strongest, but the race would've been completely different if the main contenders would've been together. You don't think Quintana would pull for 10 km, do you? I've seen football analogies, but the one that I have in mind is when a team gets a penalty that isn't one, and then later score one more on the counterattack (2-0). "They would've won without the penalty" - well, maybe, but it isn't merely 1+1. The dynamics of the game/race changed, and everything else changed because of that.

All in all, the blame lies 99% with the organisation, who now shamelessly try to avert their responsibility and seem to be lying. It's such a pity as it - for me - destroyed an epic racing day.

http://www.tinkoffsaxo.com/news/heres-happened-stelvio/