Stage 16: Ponte Di Legno-Val Martello/Martelltal (139 km)

[RetroActive]

Now people begin to doubt what was said?
Lool I see the race directors spin is working perfectly.

During the broadcasting of the stage two commentators who both speaks fluent Italian both said the same thing, the decent was neutralized, and it was repeated again and again on the race radio, there were nothing to be mistaken about.
And why would a motor cycle ride in front of Quintana with a red flag in his hand waving it if it wasnt the case.

What seems to be the problem is that only some cars heard the message, or some say they didnt hear it for different reasons, but fact is, the decent was neutralized, and some riders decented accordingly to that fact.

My bet after have seeing the stage again and with the pictures that have been taking, then its my believe Quintana perfectly knew what was going on but took the chance and went for it. It´s not rocket science, if the organizers would stop him so be it, but if they didnt he already had the advantage.

You can´t blame the other DS for stopping or telling their riders to relax and look after them selves on the decent when the radio says its neutralized.

The biggest problem here is the race noobs couldnt control it, and it got out of hand so it was plan B, deny the message and keep racing.

It's a bike race is it not? The hungry one's were at the front. Did they pass the red flag, or not - that's my question. If they passed the red flag(?)s, it's a whole different question. If the Race Organizer wants to take over the race then follow (them), as close as possible. That's Racing.

 

[T-Nielsen]

http://www.cycling.it/oggetti/RADIOCORSSASCAM_0034S12_01.mp3

I don't speak Italian so I have little idear about what is being said, but this is supposed to be it.

 

[RetroActive]

I'm not at all impressed with Quintana's tactic in this Giro.

He sat on Pozzovivo's wheel and when the Lucanian asked him to share the work, Nairo said he was incapable because at his limit; only to then surge away at the end to gain time.

That is a racing no, no and shows no class. If he had the energy to attack at the end, he had the energy to pull through before, but didn't.

It was obvious that the other GC contenders were not racing down the Stelvio, but, despite clear signs that he was "getting away" only because of it, Nairo insited in his move.

Again, no class. Period.

Now you can argue it however you want, but you can't say Quintana was unaware of how he was actually exploding the Giro.

My only cirtique of the MR was that he didn't show any leadership in the situation by going to the front on the descent to get control of the race, rather he was all too passive and tranquilo, which seems to be Uran's great flaw as a racer.

As I have already said, however, the race organization is the most to blame. Now the Giro is tainted and, unfortunately for the tifosi, it serves them right.

They should have just stayed out of it and let the riders go down the damn descent as they were able, without the not fortuitous interference. They are pros, not middle school kids.

You said it before and I agreed with you then. Officials will be officials.

 

[Der Effe]

Rolland said on his facebook he saw Quintana and Hesjedal go and then he and a teammate followed, while Quintana says he saw Hesjedal and Rolland go and followed.

 

[RetroActive]

Rolland said on his facebook he saw Quintana and Hesjedal go and then he and a teammate followed, while Quintana says he saw Hesjedal and Rolland go and followed.

I'm kinda thinking a few just raced over the top. They didn't stop.

 

[goggalor]

What a mess lol

 

[el_angliru]

http://www.cycling.it/oggetti/RADIOCORSSASCAM_0034S12_01.mp3

I don't speak Italian so I have little idear about what is being said, but this is supposed to be it.

I don't speak Italian either but here's a brief summary according to a Danish translation of the audio file (@ Danish TV2): Motorbikes with a red flag will ride in front of the leading groups... This is to avoid attacks. Make sure your riders keep their positions and rides safely until the red flags are lowered.

 

[meat puppet]

what I don't get is this: there was 20k flat for the MR group to catch on. they didn't, but given the numbers, they sure should have reduced the gap at least. it is not like the quintana group was motoring it, as they only caught soloing cataldo on the lower slopes.

in other words, the other favorites were either cooked, confused and dis-spirited, or both. and it seems OPQS and uran did not take responsibility. IMHO the polemic sidesteps the issue of people actually being tired after gavia and stelvio. in horrendous conditions to boot.

as for whether it was quintana or rolland who went first, in the end someone will probably have pictures..

E:

ALSO, quintana deserves massive kudos for having duct taped the shoe covers onto his legs. duct tape FTW!

 

[Der Effe]

what I don't get is this: there was 20k flat for the MR group to catch on. they didn't, but given the numbers, they sure should have reduced the gap at least. it is not like the quintana group was motoring it, as they only caught soloing cataldo on the lower slopes.

in other words, the other favorites were either cooked, confused and dis-spirited, or both. and it seems OPQS and uran did not take responsibility. IMHO the polemic sidesteps the issue of people actually being tired after gavia and stelvio. in horrendous conditions to boot.

as for whether it was quintana or rolland who went first, in the end someone will probably have pictures..

E:

ALSO, quintana deserves massive kudos for having duct taped the shoe covers onto his legs. duct tape FTW!

Nobody cares who actually went first, it's just that at least one of them is lying, which makes you wonder whether the rest of their words have any value.

 

[inri2000]

I agree the stage would have been quiet different if everyone had acknowledged the race was neutralized. Even if Quintana thought it was not, he would have been told on the way down, or at least realized when none of the other favorites came up after decent.

I am sure Quintana would still have taken between 1-2 minutes on Uran and he would still have had a great chance to win the Giro over the next stages. All he did now, is pretty much upset everyone else in the Peloton, so he better hope that he and his team is strong enough over the rest of the race, which I do believe they will be, unless everyone gang up on him.

As much as everyone blames the other favorites as they should have known, I do find it amazing that all the rest of the teams said they were informed, and why would RCS apologize if they were sure they had not said anything?

But all that aside, what I don’t understand, is how none of the teams took any responsibility, except Saxo and to some extend AG2R. If I were Majka I would be ****ed, spending all his team trying to catch up and then he attacks and no one wants to help. They then attack him later and drop him (Kelderman, Aru) so they are all riding for minor placing’s and allowing Rolland and to some extend Hesjedal to come back in top 3-5 contention. I thought it would have been smarter, if Aru, Majka, Kelderman and Pozo worked together, minimized loss to Rolland and Hesjedal while putting serious time into Uran and Evans, both looked cooked, they could then attack each other on last 1 km for smaller gains.

Totally agree

 

[Czapiewski]

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

You realize that that picture was taken from another race motor, right?

 

[karlboss]

I think it's pretty classless to call the sports directors idiots, sore losers etc. for thinking the descent was neutralised. Clearly, some riders and directors thought the descent could and actually should be taken slowly. Add to that low visibility, people wearing the same rain coats and communication problems, and it's obvious that riders in the main group were surprised to find that Quintana was gone.

It's equally stupid to say that the 2.5 minutes Quintana gained on the uphill, would stick anyway. He probably was the strongest, but the race would've been completely different if the main contenders would've been together. You don't think Quintana would pull for 10 km, do you? I've seen football analogies, but the one that I have in mind is when a team gets a penalty that isn't one, and then later score one more on the counterattack (2-0). "They would've won without the penalty" - well, maybe, but it isn't merely 1+1. The dynamics of the game/race changed, and everything else changed because of that.

All in all, the blame lies 99% with the organisation, who now shamelessly try to avert their responsibility and seem to be lying. It's such a pity as it - for me - destroyed an epic racing day.

http://www.tinkoffsaxo.com/news/heres-happened-stelvio/

In these situations I find you really can't say much about what would have happened if. Maybe Quintana wouldn't have ridden the whole climb and maybe he wouldn't have got all that time, but then again maybe he'd have been more fresh having sat in a bunch instead of a straight line, had team mates to drill the lower slopes and isolated the leaders even earlier and instead of AG2R and Saxo working there'd have been noone, he launches an attack and then takes even more. We just don't know.
In my mind, the only thing certain is if you want to win at some stage you have to stand up and take responsibility. Evans didn't do it on alpe d'huez in 2008 and did on Galibier in 2011. If the favourites were watching Quintana leapfrog them after the first 6 hairpins, there were 20+ guys in a group to share work with to pull him back on the remaining descent and flat before the final climb, and again on the final climb. Instead they left it to a couple of domestiques who were surely struggling to even keep up. Same thing when Evans rode away for his initial minute lead. Maybe he should have waited, but if you don't do the work to chase then I don't think you can really whinge about it. Then again, now it seems completely justified as Evans will be lucky to hang on to the top 10 if he continues like this

 

[Narce_]

And to Narce_..... reckless and restless I agree. Nothing indicated to me that they were strongest though. Prior to that Quintana hasnt won single stage, Hesjedal didnt show anything spectacular, and Rolland was impressive with numbers of attacks but he was still minutes back in GC.

Maybe I should clarify: they were the strongest on this stage. Maybe because they were resting until this, or maybe other reasons, but I saw how much time they put into the others on the last climb, so yes, they were the strongest. Even if Rolland and Hesjedal were mostly wheelsucking, but they could hang on.

 

[SafeBet]

I don't speak Italian either but here's a brief summary according to a Danish translation of the audio file (@ Danish TV2): Motorbikes with a red flag will ride in front of the leading groups... This is to avoid attacks. Make sure your riders keep their positions and rides safely until the red flags are lowered.

We've been through this some 30 pages ago. It was literally translated in various posts. No mention of a neutralization in Italian, but still a very unclear message on what was gonna happen. It's no surprise DS interpreted in different ways.
Now I'd be curious to hear the english/french translation. If it's true they mentioned the neutralization in the translation, well this changes a lot to me.

I can't imagine what would have happened if it was Nibbles instead of Quintana. Someone even tried to sell that the race organization did this to favour Cataldo.

 

[luckyboy]

https://twitter.com/l_guercilena/status/471541046359625728

Marco Velo driver of Safety moto"my red flag was up,quintana pass me"! Still some doubts???#DSbadinterpretation pic.twitter.com/nndC4sUATf

"I raised the red flag - says the ex-pro from Brescia - but Quintana signalled several times for me to accelerate and then overtook us and went away"

 

[Butterhead]

It's a bike race is it not? The hungry one's were at the front. Did they pass the red flag, or not - that's my question. If they passed the red flag(?)s, it's a whole different question. If the Race Organizer wants to take over the race then follow (them), as close as possible. That's Racing.

So what you basically are saying is, no matter what the race directors decide the race is still on.
You don´t think you should ask the race directors where the red flag went? I mean, we know it was there, and we know the decent were neutralized, so in theory they should all have been brought together and continue the stage when they hit the bottom, right? Why didnt that happen now we know that it WAS neutralized from the summit.

Course they screewed up, it got out of control and they had no other options, but it doesn´t change the fact, Quintana knew, he had the red flag right up his face already at the top.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

snipped..

as for whether it was quintana or rolland who went first, in the end someone will probably have pictures..

E:

snipped..

Rolland (via Sicard) already attacked on Stelvio (before any noise about neutralization) but was pulled back by the Movistar train. It was clear Rolland wanted to attack long distance. Quintana, being a bit of a champion in the making, just followed the Europcar duo over the top and later took control on the descent and flat (together with Gorka). Frankly anybody with serious ambition would have done the same, because Rolland has been riding the Giro as an open book. The attack was bound to happen and Quintana knew it.

 

[Butterhead]

https://twitter.com/l_guercilena/status/471541046359625728

Marco Velo driver of Safety moto"my red flag was up,quintana pass me"! Still some doubts???#DSbadinterpretation pic.twitter.com/nndC4sUATf

Ah yea well, what else do we need to know.

I like Quintana for the cyclist he is, but this brings scratches to the image imo, at least to mine, it´s the kind of racing we don´t want to see.
Brutal and ruthless and disregard to rules and ethics, I don´t want that.

 

[el_angliru]

We've been through this some 30 pages ago. It was literally translated in various posts. No mention of a neutralization in Italian, but still a very unclear message on what was gonna happen. It's no surprise DS interpreted in different ways.

Ah, thanks. I thought it was new information because I just saw someone posting a link to the mp3.

Quite a mess by the organizers. But somehow I also think the sports directors could have done something to avoid this mess (get a confirmation instead of just assuming what's going to happen). It was obvious that the riders (and the teams) were interpreting the situation differently. Some were blasting over the summit of Stelvio without stopping for extra clothing while some riders, even GC contenders, did stop and took a very cautious ride down the Stelvio.

 

[SafeBet]

Ah, thanks. I thought it was new information because I just saw someone posting a link to the mp3.

Quite a mess by the organizers. But somehow I also think the sports directors could have done something to avoid this mess (get a confirmation instead of just assuming what's going to happen). It was obvious that the riders (and the teams) were interpreting the situation differently. Some were blasting over the summit of Stelvio without stopping for extra clothing while some riders, even GC contenders, did stop and took a very cautious ride down the Stelvio.

Yeah that's another thing I said before.
You're a DS, you get this message and you're not sure how to interpret it. Why don't you just ask the race organization before telling your riders what to do.

 

[Knutsen]

...Make sure your riders keep their positions and rides safely until the red flags are lowered.

So when the flags where lowered the race was full on again? Which was supposed to happen at 6'th hairpin from the top (1500 meters(?)).

I think some DS'es that did't get this, and maybe misinformed their raiders, is quite eager to blame the organizers/other teams/raiders.

 

[jens_attacks]

now quintana just needs to win three stages in a row to shut them up i guess...

 

[ILovecycling]

It looks like this thread is so long,that most of posters dont have informations which came up from posts hours ago,and then their posts dont make sense.

People forget that they said something like "Motorbikes will guide you with red flag,to avoid any dangerous and attacks on Stelvio descent"

But there was no freakin "you can lose a minute on descent on other group with comfortable descending and it will be given to you at the bottom"
They just rode so freakin slow they (Q group) gained a minute on descent on Rigo and Co,which is not impossible as Stelvio descent is very difficult.

Another fact: Rigo was told he was a minute down on Q group at half way through descent and they knew (in this moment) there is no f... neutralisation so they should hammer it down on second half of descent and then on flat part.They had like 30k before Martello to erase 1 minute deficit on that group.MR group had at least 20 riders at that moment while in Q group only Izagirre and Sicard were working,so Im asking why the hell any doubts?



On the other hand,even if Im big fan of Nairo (but also Rigo and other colombians) I would like to Nairo wait on the bottom cuz I wantet to see
Nairo crush them from group of favourites.But of course it wasnt possible cuz they didnt see anything bad about their move,which is true.

Probably organisors should said it like 20 times when they saw that most of teams didnt understand ("Repeat,there is no neutralisation" or somehting like this),that true but no fatal mistake imo.

 

[RetroActive]

So when the flags where lowered the race was full on again? Which was supposed to happen at 6'th hairpin from the top (1500 meters(?)).

I think some DS'es that did't get this, and maybe misinformed their raiders, is quite eager to blame the organizers/other teams/raiders.

How great is it that you call yourself Knutsen and call riders raiders? I like it.

One of the raiders should perform a blood eagle. How great would that be? Relax, joking.