Stage 5: San Martino di Castrozza - Alpe di Siusi

[indurain666]

nice stage, for me its either diluca, basso or sastre..we will see.

I am glad mr. armstrong's derailleur broke again and lost three minutes, hopefully I won't have to hear la talk day and night anymore after this. Lets focus on real contenders

 

[franciep10]

You guys can't have it both ways all the time on doping - complain that the race is boring then smack every non-expected performance with a doping label! Seriously, why do you dope-heads even watch this sport?

Anyway, Liquigas might have shot a wad too soon I think. They tried the JB/Lance blow em up tactic but only managed to shed one real potential contender (Cunego, if you can even call him a real contender). They rode like they owned the race when it was Columbia who should have been wasting bullets.

Columbia rode smart.

Astana should have tried to keep Popo up there as he was up there on GC which would have given them something like 3 guys in the top ten? Loved Horner's ride, I hope some of the other Astana boys work for Levi and Horner gets a chance to jump for a stage a la Hincapie in the TDF.

I pray to the cycling gods that the Universal announcer gets the LA bug out of his a$$ now that LA is out of contention. That guy has to be the worst announcer ever in the history of sports announcing. He just says who is on the screen if he can figure out who it is, no race tactics, knowledge of riders, knowledge of the sport, history nothing!!!!! Thanks to Universal for getting the Giro, but I cant imagine anyone but the diehards tuning in to hear that awful commentary. Maybe we can get him some CERA and EPO and his performance will improve 20%....

LMAO the epo part classic

 

[Angliru]

seriously what is wiggins on a no gluten diet too unbelievable so when contador beats wiggins in a flat time trial he has to be on something but vice a versa are you kidding me where's big boat, there is no way cunego should be getting dropped before wiggins. this stinks like a japanese fish market.

LOL!!!! Thanks for that one franciep10! I was waiting for someone to bring this up since there was such an uproar during Paris-Nice.

 

[Mellow Velo]

LOL!!!! Thanks for that one franciep10! I was waiting for someone to bring this up since there such an uproar during Paris-Nice.

Maybe you'd have a point if Contador had finished 22nd, two minutes down, instead of first.
I'm not sure how Cunego's sh*t performance is a benchmark for Wiggin's effort.

Then again, I suppose Garmin are the Devil's spawn, in some quarters.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I am glad mr. armstrong's derailleur broke again and lost three minutes, hopefully I won't have to hear la talk day and night anymore after this. Lets focus on real contenders

LOL!

Also at Snake8's comment on doping up the commentator!

I cut the guy some slack, as I believe he's a Futbol commentator they got at the last possible second. But I find it hard to believe that they couldn't get an ex-pro in the booth with him to help with tactics and keep things going. Like I said in the past, I'm just happy to have any coverage at all. Hopefully the commentator will improve.

I'll say again - it was odd that Cunego was dropped like that. As to Wiggins, let's wait and see before rushing to judge a guy who followed wheels up relatively short climbing stages as being doped. I realize these are cautious times, but I'm going to hold off for now. If he's there with the leaders on Stage 16, then I'll seriously suspect something.

I'd also hold off a little on judging Liquigas tactics. They did shed a few riders, and that's the type of climbing Basso needs to succeed. He doesn't yo-yo up and down climbs the way others do. He, like Levi and Lance, benefit from a fast, steady pace of attrition.

Agree it was absolutely stupid tactics for Astana to have Popo stay back with Lance instead of up with Horner and Levi, or even ride in no man's land on his own, as he was fairly high on GC and has a lot of GT experience.

 

[franciep10]

Maybe you'd have a point if Contador had finished 22nd, two minutes down, instead of first.
I'm not sure how Cunego's sh*t performance is a benchmark for Wiggin's effort.

Then again, I suppose Garmin are the Devil's spawn, in some quarters.

The thing his contador had done good in the time trials before wiggins hasn't shown anything in the mountains. Now with contador and the ITT when you're a Team Leader u spend more time in the TT training than most riders, now with TT contador had the legs previously but didn't have the technique now he has both.

 

[franciep10]

LOL!

Also at Snake8's comment on doping up the commentator!

I cut the guy some slack, as I believe he's a Futbol commentator they got at the last possible second. But I find it hard to believe that they couldn't get an ex-pro in the booth with him to help with tactics and keep things going. Like I said in the past, I'm just happy to have any coverage at all. Hopefully the commentator will improve.

I'll say again - it was odd that Cunego was dropped like that. As to Wiggins, let's wait and see before rushing to judge a guy who followed wheels up relatively short climbing stages as being doped. I realize these are cautious times, but I'm going to hold off for now. If he's there with the leaders on Stage 16, then I'll seriously suspect something.

I'd also hold off a little on judging Liquigas tactics. They did shed a few riders, and that's the type of climbing Basso needs to succeed. He doesn't yo-yo up and down climbs the way others do. He, like Levi and Lance, benefit from a fast, steady pace of attrition.

Agree it was absolutely stupid tactics for Astana to have Popo stay back with Lance instead of up with Horner and Levi, or even ride in no man's land on his own, as he was fairly high on GC and has a lot of GT experience.

Agreed but it is obvious that Pelizotti is not the rider he was last year FOR WHATEVER REASON so I think Pelizotti should've set the pace for Basso.

 

[linenoiz]

Agree it was absolutely stupid tactics for Astana to have Popo stay back with Lance instead of up with Horner and Levi, or even ride in no man's land on his own, as he was fairly high on GC and has a lot of GT experience.

Popo didn't stay back with Lance, he was with Horner and Levi till he got shed. He finished somewhere inbetween Levi/Horner and Lance. As far as the no-mans land inbetween thats where he ended up, but I don't think that was the plan. You either have it or you don't.

The riders with Lance were: Chechu, JB-junior, Navarro

5 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Astana 0.09
6 Christopher Horner (USA) Astana

25 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Astana 1.56

34 José Luis Rubiera (Spa) Astana 2.58
35 Lance Armstrong (USA) Astana
37 Janez Brajkovic (Slo) Astana
38 Daniel Navarro (Spa) Astana

 

[benpounder]

Some short TT results from this year.
...

While interesting, I think it is more helpful looking to the past several years GT TT's. Menchov and Leipheimer are fairly close - I'd give the edge to Levi, if he is in contention. Sastre is always respectable, but always behind. In last years Giro, just under 40km with hills, Levi beat Simoni one second and Di Luca by over a minute BUT, Menchov was infront of both by 15-16 seconds. Yet in the 2007 TdF Albi-Albi hilly 54km TT, Levi beat Menchov by 0:50 and Sastre by 1:20. In last year's hilly 53km TdF TT, Menchov was best beating Lovkvist by 34 seconds and Sastre by 39.

Rogers and Basso are question marks - both have shown really well in TT's long ago, but who knows this year. I suspect Lovkvist will be in the fray.

I've little hope for Di Luca making up any time on the GC's, Simoni could, but he has a bit to make up. With the lack of really nasty climbs, Leipheimer, Menchov, and Basso look like the strongest threats. Rogers and Lovkvist Sastre and Simoni will be right in there, but I think the weight of Pink will be to much for Thomas, Mick doesn't look comfortable at the front, Carlos won't keep up in the TT's, and Gibo... well, Blockhaus was shortened and even though Vesuvio is long and steep, I dont see him getting to the bottom in front of a devastated peloton.

 

[Leopejo]

I don't agree with this Liquigas criticism. They did what they had to do and got the results they wanted.

The work on the first part of the climb paid off. Then Szmyd (a signing from Lampre that Basso requested) made a wonderful job.

Basso and Pellizzotti - they were both co-captains at the start of the Giro. The first climb would tell which one would be the leader - and it did. Pellizzotti didn't have the legs - not to be with the best, not to be a captain, nor to make any work today. Maybe he'll work for Basso from now on.

Basso has shown time after time that, at least since his comeback, he doesn't have any jump. He can't attack on a climb, he has to wear his opponents à la Indurain. And this is what he succesfully did today - they were all on the rope, apart perhaps from Menchov. You can't expect from a diesel like him to grind them all, not on the first real mountain day when everybody is fresh.

This Giro won't be won by the best climber or the best time trialist: it will be won by who has most endurance.

 

[indurain666]

I
This Giro won't be won by the best climber or the best time trialist: it will be won by who has most endurance.

Amen, lets not forget that you could be dominant for two and a half weeks and lose it all in 2-3 days, a la Alex Zulle, Giro 98..

 

[mr. tibbs]

5th place on a mountain stage = slow slide? Levi looked very tranquilo today with the help of his stud teammate Horner. Look out for him because he'll get full team support now that whats-his-name is no longer in the picture.

Help? Stud teammate? Those two just cowered together in the Italians' draft.

Maybe they didn't do anythign cuz the team car was focused on what was happening 3 minutes down the road and, left to their own devices, they could only trundle along, smiling vacantly.

 

[benpounder]

...Those two just cowered together in the Italians' draft. Maybe they didn't do anythign cuz the team car was focused on what was happening 3 minutes down the road and, left to their own devices, they could only trundle along, smiling vacantly.

Amazing how just cowering in the shadows of the Italians led to a 5th and 6th place! The Italians in front??? Di Luca by 5 seconds, Basso by 2.

There are certain riders that I do not like, but I don't allow my prejudices to affect my assessment of those riders.

 

[rhubroma]

I don't agree with this Liquigas criticism. They did what they had to do and got the results they wanted.

The work on the first part of the climb paid off. Then Szmyd (a signing from Lampre that Basso requested) made a wonderful job.

Basso and Pellizzotti - they were both co-captains at the start of the Giro. The first climb would tell which one would be the leader - and it did. Pellizzotti didn't have the legs - not to be with the best, not to be a captain, nor to make any work today. Maybe he'll work for Basso from now on.

Basso has shown time after time that, at least since his comeback, he doesn't have any jump. He can't attack on a climb, he has to wear his opponents à la Indurain. And this is what he succesfully did today - they were all on the rope, apart perhaps from Menchov. You can't expect from a diesel like him to grind them all, not on the first real mountain day when everybody is fresh.

This Giro won't be won by the best climber or the best time trialist: it will be won by who has most endurance.

Agreed. I'd like to just add a couple of observations. True, Basso is a deisel, not a punchy, explosive climber like say Contador. But when he turns the screws, he's the best in the business right now. On the other hand, in the past, Basso has attached with success out of his usual habit for example in the 2006 Giro he won. But today the stage was too short and he was left in the front at the end when the pace was so high that all he could do was insist and that put everybody else either in a hang on mode or else were shed out the back. The Italian needed a longer stage with one or two more climbs to have KO'd the likes of Lokvist, Sastre, DiLuca and, perhaps, even Leipheimer (the only one I'm not sure about at the moment). The others, you could see it on DiLuca's face for example, while Lokvist was yo-yoing off the back and Sastre was at his limit, would not have resisited Ivan had the stage been harder. Whereas Menchov probably could have resisted Basso's pass however hard of a stage today. He was so strong.

With 40k more and another big climb, therefore, I'd say Ivan would have dropped everyone but Menchov and perhaps Leipheimer. Menchov was impecable tactically today too and obviously has great form. I think he will crack once, though, before the end as he has done in the past when under extreme pressure. But he could surprise and right now is, along with Leipheimer, the greatest threat to Basso's huge desire for overall victory. Leipheimer should remain in the running in the mountains, though I have doubts on his ability to not loose time on one stage. If he does, but not big time and rides a great time trial as he knows how to do, then he could win the Giro. DiLuca will not be at the very front as he has the past two days in the mountains for the rest of the hard climbing stages I think. When he starts getting worn down in the last week, he should loose time as he did in the last week of the Giro he won in 2007. Basso is still the big favorite I think, but he has to ride everyone off his wheels in the La Marche suffer fest stage next week and he has to ride the time trial of his life in Liguria. If he does not do one or both of these things then he will probably just make the podium. Simoni is an old dog who keeps fighting, but doesn't have the power to make a difference. He should just hope for a stage win and forget about the overall. I was not at all surprised by Cunego. The guy is an Ardenes classics rider, not a three week stage racer. He was lucky in 2004 when there wasn't anybody good at the Giro. Now that the competition is at a higher level, Cunego is placed in his true dimension. Pellizioti exceeded himself last year. I never thought he could seriously challenge Basso as team leader. Today was proof of that.

That's my take on things after the fifth stage...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Funny Tibbs.

Thanks Linenoiz. It seemed to me that Popo dropped when Lance did, and then rode between, but I never got a confirmation one way or the other.

Agree with Leopejo and Rhubroma. As noted before, Basso does indeed climb like Lance did in his last few Tour wins, or Indurain, and to follow teammates who burn themselves out setting a quick pace is to his liking. Having a lot of long tough climbs at a fast pace suits him perfectly as he's got a big engine. Agree that I don't know how Levi fits into this. He likes this kind of climbing too, but is he properly prepared and ready to win the Giro? I'd like to see him do it over Basso, personally.

It looked to me like when Sastre was about to get dropped, Menchov would be the next to go as he was at the back of the group. But both guys are very experienced former GT winners and rode very smart. It seemed like Basso then slowed just past 2k, trying to get someone else to work, but maybe because he needed to from setting such a blistering pace. Only DiLuca would pick up the pace, which also told me something. Either he felt that strong, honorable (?), or the other riders couldn't or weren't interested. It makes me wonder if Basso was just wanting someone to share the load, or if in retrospect he knew they couldn't, he could have ridden maybe everyone off his wheel?

Either way, Basso really looks stronger than anyone to me. If he can cut his losses in the ITT, and stay strong in the 3rd week. As Leo says, endurance is the key.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Amen, lets not forget that you could be dominant for two and a half weeks and lose it all in 2-3 days, a la Alex Zulle, Giro 98..

According to Willy Voet, Zulle lost that Giro because he didn't respond well to doping. Mostly the corticosteroids if I recall correctly. Willy's book is a little eye opening about Alex, because you get the feeling if they all played on a level field with no doping, he would have been one hell of a racer and maybe won more than he did.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Amazing how just cowering in the shadows of the Italians led to a 5th and 6th place! The Italians in front??? Di Luca by 5 seconds, Basso by 2.

There are certain riders that I do not like, but I don't allow my prejudices to affect my assessment of those riders.

He is referring to the fact they only sat on Basso and Di Luca's wheel the entire climb. Not doing any work at all, and in the end still losing seconds, despite the fact they could profit from doing nothing the entire time.

Damn, unbelievable that's too hard for you to figure out.

 

[Bala Verde]

While interesting, I think it is more helpful looking to the past several years GT TT's. Menchov and Leipheimer are fairly close - I'd give the edge to Levi, if he is in contention. Sastre is always respectable, but always behind. In last years Giro, just under 40km with hills, Levi beat Simoni one second and Di Luca by over a minute BUT, Menchov was infront of both by 15-16 seconds. Yet in the 2007 TdF Albi-Albi hilly 54km TT, Levi beat Menchov by 0:50 and Sastre by 1:20. In last year's hilly 53km TdF TT, Menchov was best beating Lovkvist by 34 seconds and Sastre by 39.

Rogers and Basso are question marks - both have shown really well in TT's long ago, but who knows this year. I suspect Lovkvist will be in the fray.

Good post. I just wanted to highlight this year's performances of several riders still in contention/in top10. Obviously, some of them have shown in the past how good they are at TTs.

Another thing that I just thought about is (after having seen an intv with LA on RAI) that LA's perceived succes formula seems to be contradicted by, ... LA himself.

It's rather odd to hear from the one-stage-race per year man, that his current form is explained away by his lack of competition. I thought he always prepped himself on his hometrainer pushing away amazing wattages, simulating the toughest climbs in the TdF, and not trying to expend any energy in other races throughout the year. Have we forgotten that in his glory days he was always out of competition (perhaps for the reason to not get tested too often)? At the start of this year, in the TDU, he even said and I kinda quote 'you never get to push such watts, when you train alone' after having been in the lead in a stage for a while. hmmm

I wonder, if they had had the whereabouts system back in those days, where LA would have been caught training (by Cassani)...

 

[benpounder]

Damn, unbelievable that's too hard for you to figure out.

Were it sarcasm, then yes I missed it. It is just that in this forum too many are too willing to slam riders whom they dislike, and for no other reason.

IMO, tactically Menchov and Leipheimer rode brilliant. So did Basso, but using different tactics (the USPostal/Disco method). Most of the time differences are where these three can control - and there are a number of riders that they no longer have to be particularly concerned with.

 

[benpounder]

It's rather odd to hear from the one-stage-race per year man, that his current form is explained away by his lack of competition. I thought he always prepped himself on his hometrainer pushing away amazing wattages, simulating the toughest climbs in the TdF, and not trying to expend any energy in other races throughout the year.

Now THAT is a very good observation. I dont necessarily buy into the rest, but you are absolutely right regarding LA's myopic focus on the TdF.

During his TdF reign, what was it, one Dauphnie and two seconds in the Amstel? (purposfully ignoring the TdGeorgia - until this years TdCal, the full weight of the Pro Peloton has not stepped upon US soil - and even then, it was just training.)

 

[Bala Verde]

It looked to me like when Sastre was about to get dropped, Menchov would be the next to go as he was at the back of the group. But both guys are very experienced former GT winners and rode very smart.

First I thought the same, but after having read the post-race intv with Menchov, he explained as following. He just hung in the back to, to save energy, check out the competition, and to fool the competition as well. He didn't want to appear too strong, because then, as he said, they might have tried to gang up on him. That's also his reason for not attacking the GC contenders. Rather then blasting away, and making a GC group of enemies, and showing how strong you are, he thought the stage win, including the bonus seconds, would be more valuable so early in the Giro. He felt so strong, it almost surprised him how easily he could follow the pace, and on top of that he said he hasn't even reached his peak (all of this is basically what he said). We'll see and figure out the truth in that...

Sastre however seemed less strong, because he actually got dropped and only regrouped when the pace slowed down in the end, when no one wanted to take any pulls anymore. Nonetheless, I bet (like ingsve did) he will try to pull off another 'alpe d'huez' at the end of the giro, perhaps vesuvius?

 

[benpounder]

He is referring to the fact they only sat on Basso and Di Luca's wheel the entire climb. Not doing any work at all, and in the end still losing seconds, despite the fact they could profit from doing nothing the entire time.

Have to add something else. Both Beloki and Basso learned over the years what damage a strong team could do. USPostal/Disco did it to perfection, When Liquigas put six riders on the front at today's fiinal climb, it wasn't because Leipheimer or Menchov requested it. That was Liquigas, and Ivan Basso's doing. So why in the world with either Denis or Levi want to break into that chain when they are perfectly comfortable tagging on?

Now Liquigas is a very strong team. But if you are RaboBank or Astana, why in the world would you want to pace Basso and Liquigas?

This screencap is about 4km out. Note that still, there are three Liquigas riders followed by Di Luca, then two Columbia riders. Leipheimer and Horner follow, Sastre and Menchov further behind. I know whom I think was smarter - but only time, and km's will tell.

 

[whiteboytrash]

First I thought the same, but after having read the post-race intv with Menchov, he explained as following. He just hung in the back to, to save energy, check out the competition, and to fool the competition as well. He didn't want to appear too strong, because then, as he said, they might have tried to gang up on him. That's also his reason for not attacking the GC contenders. Rather then blasting away, and making a GC group of enemies, and showing how strong you are, he thought the stage win, including the bonus seconds, would be more valuable so early in the Giro. He felt so strong, it almost surprised him how easily he could follow the pace, and on top of that he said he hasn't even reached his peak (all of this is basically what he said). We'll see and figure out the truth in that...

Sastre however seemed less strong, because he actually got dropped and only regrouped when the pace slowed down in the end, when no one wanted to take any pulls anymore. Nonetheless, I bet (like ingsve did) he will try to pull off another 'alpe d'huez' at the end of the giro, perhaps vesuvius?

Huh ? Sastre started the attack then Menchov counted. Sastre was strong. Watch the bike race not the text feeds.

 

[mr. tibbs]

Were it sarcasm, then yes I missed it. It is just that in this forum too many are too willing to slam riders whom they dislike, and for no other reason.

IMO, tactically Menchov and Leipheimer rode brilliant. So did Basso, but using different tactics (the USPostal/Disco method). Most of the time differences are where these three can control - and there are a number of riders that they no longer have to be particularly concerned with.

Yeah, I acknowledge it as tactically sound on Astana's part, but I don't think it was studly or commendable in any way. I was just pointing out that, despite having two guys in the group, Astana hid at the back the whole time, refusing to take control or even help out.

I WAS being a bit snarky about it, which was maybe uncalled for, but I hate seeing riding like that, no matter how tactically sound it is.

I also ribbed Menchov a bit right after the stage finished, posting something like "Boo Menchov! Poor form! " b/c he didn't do any work but had all that kick at the end. So I wasn't just going after Leipheimer and Horner.

I prefer to see guys sharing the load, tactical or not. I despise wheelsuckers, especially if they profit from it!

 

[Bala Verde]

Huh ? Sastre started the attack then Menchov counted. Sastre was strong. Watch the bike race not the text feeds.

Then I recommend you buy a pair of glasses because Sastre tagged to the back in the last 2k, and then at 750-500m he started the sprint. The pace had dropped in the elite group, which is the only reason Laurens Ten Dam could rejoin that group... But perhaps you only saw the last km...