Stage 5: San Martino di Castrozza - Alpe di Siusi

[Mellow Velo]

Some interesting thoughts that collectively must have all the answers!
Just not sure what they are, yet.
On the subject of comparative ITT's. I noticed that nobody has mentioned Levi's 2006 Tour efforts.........

I'm convinced some of these top 10 guys will crash and burn, during the last week of the race.
To me, this Giro more than any other GT of late, is all about getting the tactics right on those final stages.

It may not even come down to who is the strongest.

 

[benpounder]

I prefer to see guys sharing the load, tactical or not. I despise wheelsuckers, especially if they profit from it!

Cheers to that!

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I acknowledge it as tactically sound on Astana's part, but I don't think it was studly or commendable in any way. I was just pointing out that, despite having two guys in the group, Astana hid at the back the whole time, refusing to take control or even help out.

I WAS being a bit snarky about it, which was maybe uncalled for, but I hate seeing riding like that, no matter how tactically sound it is.

I also ribbed Menchov a bit right after the stage finished, posting something like "Boo Menchov! Poor form! " b/c he didn't do any work but had all that kick at the end. So I wasn't just going after Leipheimer and Horner.

I prefer to see guys sharing the load, tactical or not. I despise wheelsuckers, especially if they profit from it!

so did anyone have a problem when disco where on the front pulling the train along and everyone was sitting on there wheels.. why is it any different now...

personally i think we all forgetting something... ITS DAY FOUR... there are over 2 weeks to go.. the giro was not going to be won today, the GC hasnt even taken shape yet.. personally, i think Liquigas have tried far too hard far too early, how much effort did they put in today.. well enough that basso left the rest of his team trailing up the mountain, but menchov, levi et al hung in there with him.. is that the best liquigas have got.. cos it certainly looked like it...

two weeks to go, i think they have shot there bolt well and truly.. it may have been a show of strength, but you dont need to show your strength on day 4.. maybe they where hoping the pelaton would crack, basso would gain time and the rest of the GC contenders would have to play catchup.. if that was the plan it didnt work...

good day for astana, good day for columbia, for menchov, for di luca, not a good day for liquigas..

 

[Anonymous]

I prefer to see guys sharing the load, tactical or not. I despise wheelsuckers, especially if they profit from it!

liquigas's decision.. they went to the front.. they wanted to be dominant.. then they have to live with the consequences..

(i hope im wrong, i would like to see basso win.. )

extra note: wiggins 25th now, 4 minutes behind.. with time trialling to come, he could do something incredible in this giro.. interesting to see him and charlie came in side by side today as well.. but shows just how bad lotto are.... de greef nearly 8 minutes back.. wegalius over 8 minutes.. blimey..

 

[bianchigirl]

I hate riders who win by not losing anywhere rather than by going for the win - percentage riding (aka wheelsucking) is the death of the sport. I'd rather watch Di Luca or Basso try and crash and burn than watch Leipheimer eking out the advantage without ever doing anything of note.

 

[benpounder]

I'd rather watch Di Luca or Basso try and crash and burn than watch Leipheimer eking out the advantage without ever doing anything of note.

And if Leipheimer crushes in the time trials, is that worth note? Or is it just Indurain that earns that distinction?

 

[Anonymous]

I hate riders who win by not losing anywhere rather than by going for the win - percentage riding (aka wheelsucking) is the death of the sport. I'd rather watch Di Luca or Basso try and crash and burn than watch Leipheimer eking out the advantage without ever doing anything of note.

would you rather levi went for it though, or basso sat on a wheel and eaked out an advantage..?

personally i think its just tactics.. its a three week race, we havnt even got to the end of the first week yet.. if they all go for it now they will be burnt out by the end..

i was under the impession you rode.. maybe i got that wrong.. if you are sitting in a group of riders, and there are a bunch of people from one team willing to do all the work, youd be an absolute idiot wasting energy helping them.. why would you.. its a professional sport, you are there to win.. you do what you are paid to do, win races, and if another team is silly enough to do he work, let em...

everyone was perfectly happy siting on discos wheel for years..

(i wil just say, theres a massive difference between sitting on wheels when one team is pushing the pace, and being part of a breakaway group with a mixture of teams and not doing anywork.. the second is certainly not in the spirit of the sport.. the first.. perfectly acceptable)

 

[benpounder]

i wil just say, theres a massive difference between sitting on wheels when one team is pushing the pace, and being part of a breakaway group with a mixture of teams and not doing anywork.. the second is certainly not in the spirit of the sport.. the first.. perfectly acceptable

Important distinction indeed! Unless your favorite team is dragging (can't shake) a rider you would like see lose.

 

[Nevermind]

I don't see how Liquigas strategy today wasn't appropriate. The GC, while far from being definite, took shape today. Some riders lost important time (Cunego, Armstrong (even though we know hes not gonna win) for example) that will be difficult to get back.

It will probably not be the best move in the history of cycling, but I'm pretty sure it won't be the worst either.

 

[mr. tibbs]

so did anyone have a problem when disco where on the front pulling the train along and everyone was sitting on there wheels.. why is it any different now...

personally i think we all forgetting something... ITS DAY FOUR... there are over 2 weeks to go.. the giro was not going to be won today, the GC hasnt even taken shape yet.. personally, i think Liquigas have tried far too hard far too early, how much effort did they put in today.. well enough that basso left the rest of his team trailing up the mountain, but menchov, levi et al hung in there with him.. is that the best liquigas have got.. cos it certainly looked like it...

two weeks to go, i think they have shot there bolt well and truly.. it may have been a show of strength, but you dont need to show your strength on day 4.. maybe they where hoping the pelaton would crack, basso would gain time and the rest of the GC contenders would have to play catchup.. if that was the plan it didnt work...

good day for astana, good day for columbia, for menchov, for di luca, not a good day for liquigas..

YEAH! I HAD A PROBLEM WITH THAT!!

They were being mean to poor Jan

 

[Anonymous]

thanks for sending me to bed with a smile..

 

[franciep10]

I agree with dimspace on basically everything except wiggins, but with Liquigas they aimed to do this to control the race but I think Pelizotti should have set the pace after smyzd dropped off instead of Basso tiring him self out then maybe the pace wouldn't have slowed instead of basso killing himself in the last 3km then maybe they wouldn't have had satre and lovquist hanging on maybe.

 

[indurain666]

And if Leipheimer crushes in the time trials, is that worth note? Or is it just Indurain that earns that distinction?

Indurain was a steady climber (i.e. weighing like 180 pounds, didn't accelerate like Pantani, Heras, etc.) but he MADE the race in the mountains several times (e.g. LaPlagne 95, Hautacam 94, L'alpeD'huez 91, Galibier 93 and the list goes on) I believe what Bianchigirl makes sense....personally I would love to see everyone making the race at least once.. not sucking wheels forever..

 

[ingsve]

I don't get that people get hung up and get excited abour Wiggins. The way I see it is that the way this stage was set up with the high steady pace without any tempo changes was the ideal mountain setup for a guy like Wiggins. I'd say this was as perfect a condition he could ever hope for in a mountain and he still got dropped with almost two minutes.

I don't see how this in any way would indicate that he will do even better in other types of climbs. If the racing is similar in Blockhaus for example then he might be able to do something similar but as soon as some real racing starts he'll get dropped like a bad habit on new years eve.

 

[ingsve]

There is no way of knowing if Liquigas tactic was good or bad because we don't know how the stage would have evolved if they hadn't set a high pace like that. If the pace had been slower and some riders that now got dropped by the high pace perhaps would have started attacking etc which could have been an even worse situation for Basso. I'm sure part of the reason they did go with that tactic is because they wanted to avoid a chaotic situation like that.

You could argue that one reason to dictate the pace like they did is to hide the fact that Basso might not be as good as the team effort might support. You're sending a message that "we are the team to beat so don't mess with us" when in fact you're just hiding the fact that they were afraid Basso might get dropped if people attacked.

We'll just have to wait and see how things evolve in future stages.

 

[Steel4Ever]

Didn't want to read all 250 posts so....

Why were there THREE teammates "supporting" Armstrong on loosing 2+ minutes, instead of supporting Levi and Horner at the head of the race?

Will Armstrong's personal ego cost "his" team a chance at winning the Giro?

 

[Anonymous]

I don't get that people get hung up and get excited abour Wiggins. The way I see it is that the way this stage was set up with the high steady pace without any tempo changes was the ideal mountain setup for a guy like Wiggins. I'd say this was as perfect a condition he could ever hope for in a mountain and he still got dropped with almost two minutes.

I don't see how this in any way would indicate that he will do even better in other types of climbs. If the racing is similar in Blockhaus for example then he might be able to do something similar but as soon as some real racing starts he'll get dropped like a bad habit on new years eve.

wow.. did you get out of the wrong side of the bed.. In all likelehood, on a real tough climbing stage wiggins will struggle.. but give the guy a break, and some credit.. "perfect conditions for wiggins".. you having a monkeys mate...
If i had said to you, a week ago, that bradley wiggins would finish amongst the leaders on both of the first two giro mountain stages, you, (and everyone else on here bar a couple of the most informed) would have laughed so long they would probably have been laughing until, well, probably until just before the end of the stage on tuesday... its a bloody impressive performance by bradley, none of us where expecting it (bring on the smarty pants whos gonna say he was), and at the moment top 25 ahead of riders like soler is amazing.. allow us to be amazed.. my comment on how he could do well on "other" types of climbs, reffered to friday, which if you have bothered to look at the stage could be ideal for a breakaway group.. if he could get in that group, hes proved hes got the strength to climb, but with a long downhill finish that could suit his time trial style.. unfortunately brad has ruined that for himself, and probably given up a chance of a stage win, by performing so well yesterday and putting himself in a position where hes not going to be alllowed to break away anymore (considering that he is expected to put in a strong time trial later in the tour)..

but lets get this right.. nobody is suggesting that bradley is going to turn into a gc contender on the basis of two decent climbing performances.. but give the guy a break.. hes probably been the biggest surprise of the first week.. (oh as for the climbs suited to him.. if you check the daily results.. hes beaten some damn good climbers...)

end of rant..

Didn't want to read all 250 posts so....

Why were there THREE teammates "supporting" Armstrong on loosing 2+ minutes, instead of supporting Levi and Horner at the head of the race?

or... levi at the front with all the support he needed.. 4 other astana riders going at a steady pace together.. you are making an assumption they where there supporting armstrong and not just riding together as per team orders... theres other big days to come.. levi will need the other boys then.. (kaybe you should have read all 250 posts.. .. no.. lances ego will not cost them the giro, but i am thinking more and more that astanas sensible tactics may win it for them..

 

[BikeCentric]

I agree with dimspace on basically everything except wiggins, but with Liquigas they aimed to do this to control the race but I think Pelizotti should have set the pace after smyzd dropped off instead of Basso tiring him self out then maybe the pace wouldn't have slowed instead of basso killing himself in the last 3km then maybe they wouldn't have had satre and lovquist hanging on maybe.

Quite possible - Lovkvist almost got dropped at about 1.5 KM to go, then was able to recover when the pace slowed. He definitely got gapped right to the back, lost 3 or 4 places and looked to be really hurting.

And how about Sastre - dangling off the back for the entire last 5 KM's, then attacks anyway and blows himself up! LOL he's a tough mofo.

 

[unsheath]

Interesting quote from Di Luca post race I thought.

"I have the same condition of 2007 and when I have these feelings I can win any race I want."

Sounds exactly what a doped up fiend who's feeling invincible would say.

What a ponce! Here's hoping he finishes 5 mins down on GC.

 

[ingsve]

wow.. did you get out of the wrong side of the bed.. In all likelehood, on a real tough climbing stage wiggins will struggle.. but give the guy a break, and some credit.. "perfect conditions for wiggins".. you having a monkeys mate...

My intention wasn't at all to come down on Wiggins, quite to opposite. I can see after reading my post again that my thoughts didn't translate in the words I wrote.

People were going on about how unexpected it was and how if he hangs on like this there must be something fishy going on etc. What I meant with my post is that I'm not at all surprised that he could hang on as well as he has but that it shouldn't been seen as any indications of anything special at all. He's a good time trialer and it's no surprise that a good time trialer would do well considering how the stages developed.

As for good climbers struggling more and coming in behind Wiggins I'd say that speaks more about those riders than about Wiggins.

 

[rhubroma]

Huh ? Sastre started the attack then Menchov counted. Sastre was strong. Watch the bike race not the text feeds.

Actually if you watched the race, you would have seen Sastre hanging on at the back from 4 to 2k to the finish and was nearly at his limit as Lovkist (who briefly got droped) really was. No, Sastre, had the climb been a couple of K longer and just as steep all the way, would have had to drop back and probably would have lost 25-40 seconds. With circa 2k to go, Basso was looking for help, got non and so the pace slowed just enough for Lovkist to re-attach and for Sastre to rest just enough to be able to try a riffle shot at the end. Explosivity, though, at the arrival on a climb is not necessarily a demonstration of one's true status on a long climb. And, in his case, it is significant what Sastre said of Ivan's pace makeing: "Ivan did what he wanted today" in the sense that he took control of the race.

Sure, Sastre was strong (as were all who finished at the front), but he was a notch beneith Menchov, Leipheimer and, of course, Basso.

I think it is also significant that Alpe di Suisi, being the first real Giro climb and comming at the end of a short stage early in the race, makes it difficult to judge who will really be flying in the third week. On thing is clear however, and it is this: if people were wheelsucking Basso it is precisely because the blistering pace he set did not allow any of his rivals to attach or even think about trying, even when Basso relented and looked for someone else to take over. Sure, he will need to ride a fantastic time trial. If he does and climbs like he did on the Alpe in the mountain stages to come, when everybody starts to feel the accumulated fatige, then I think a much bigger difference can be made. And the likes of Sastre should be forced to relent at some point.

In any case, everyhting in this Giro seems to be hinging on the Sestre Levante time trial! Only then will we know who can win this Giro among yesterday's top finishers. And who can't...

 

[Leopejo]

Only DiLuca would pick up the pace, which also told me something. Either he felt that strong, honorable (?), or the other riders couldn't or weren't interested. It makes me wonder if Basso was just wanting someone to share the load, or if in retrospect he knew they couldn't, he could have ridden maybe everyone off his wheel?

Di Luca had the pink jersey as an immediate objective, and Lövkvist was being dropped. Better to drop him than to take the jersey with the time bonuses at the finish line. But Di Luca just didn't have it, as soon as he was pulling instead of Basso they all sighed of relief.

According to Horner's blog, Basso tried to ride them off his wheel many times.

Basso himself was quite happy, but said that it was too short a stage and too early in the Giro to be able to drop them all.