State of Peloton 2023

[NFTtiddies]

Do we think they could have been 30''-40'' quicker? More?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1680291944788811776

First 10 km
1997 | 28:29 | Pantani
2023 | 28:24 | Pogacar, Vingegaard

 

[QueenStagiaire]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1680291944788811776

First 10 km
1997 | 28:29 | Pantani
2023 | 28:24 | Pogacar, Vingegaard

Pogačar can‘t do 10km+ climbs confirmed

 

[Ilmaestro99]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1680291944788811776

First 10 km
1997 | 28:29 | Pantani
2023 | 28:24 | Pogacar, Vingegaard

I'm sure I could do the first 10 metres faster than pantani in 1997 if I went for it

 

[Riek s]

Luckily the toned it down to allow the record of an absolute climbing talent stuffed with all kinds of doping including EPO in times when they didn't have an hematocrit boundary. (think the limit was introduced in that year, not sure if it was applicable already or not)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1680291944788811776

First 10 km
1997 | 28:29 | Pantani
2023 | 28:24 | Pogacar, Vingegaard

according to lanternerouge, if they kept their pace they would have finished in: 32:37 (assuming they could keep it ofcourse )

Pogačar and Vingegaard Fly up Joux Plane | Tour de France Stage 14 2023 - Lanterne Rouge

It was an extremely hard climbing day and Jumbo-Visma took advantage of the route and paced hard all day, never letting the breakaway get any advantage. Thomas Pidcock who was the 3rd fastest climber from the GC group on Puy de Dome and Galibier even got distanced on the Col de la Ramaz more...

lanternerouge.com

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Pantani and Ullrich were born 26 years too early. Just imagine what they could have achieved nowadays, and they wouldn't even have had to get addicted to anything.

 

[NFTtiddies]

I'm sure I could do the first 10 metres faster than pantani in 1997 if I went for it

Might push it to 15 if you follow the standards of a modern cyclist:

• hefty tailwind (always)
• faster bikes (heavier though)
• better nutrition (eat before, during and after the ride)
• better training methods (riding at threshold power instead of threshold heart rate, forget about PE)
• keep it easy before the climb (always)
• bike fit (comfort is everything)

 

[Riek s]

Might push it to 15 if you follow the standards of a modern cyclist:

• hefty tailwind (always)
• faster bikes (heavier though)
• better nutrition (eat before, during and after the ride)
• better training methods (riding at threshold power instead of threshold heart rate, forget about PE)
• keep it easy before the climb (always)
• bike fit (comfort is everything)

True.
Panatani was the guy who put his steer a bit higher, because he liked the looks when climbing in the drop right?

 

[Rob5091]

Carlos Rodriguez talks about stage 13 -
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...playing-a-video-game-and-their-legs-dont-hurt
"Speaking to RTVE, he commented on what he thought of the stage and what he thinks of Jonas Vingegaard and Tadej Pogacar: "The pace was not as hard as other days, but the lunges have worn a lot. It feels like Vingegaard and Pogacar are playing a video game and their legs don't hurt."

 

[Mayomaniac]

My impression is that everyone else is still in the trial and error phase/trying to find the best responders while UAE and Jumbo just make a remake of Chicken vs Contador, with both of them having US Postal style teams.

 

[meat puppet]

∆
Kinda yes, but then again per climbing-records website Rodriguez was as fast on the joux plane as escartin-riis in 1997. Not exactly choirboys, so perhaps not the worst trials for him at least.

To cover the first 10k of the joux plane faster than peak pantani is just insane. Back in 2013-15 this would have been a headline. Now it's just meh.

 

[Ripper]

∆
Kinda yes, but then again per climbing-records website Rodriguez was as fast on the joux plane as escartin-riis in 1997. Not exactly choirboys, so perhaps not the worst trials for him at least.

To cover the first 10k of the joux plane faster than peak pantani is just insane. Back in 2013-15 this would have been a headline. Now it's just meh.

∆
Kinda yes, but then again per climbing-records website Rodriguez was as fast on the joux plane as escartin-riis in 1997. Not exactly choirboys, so perhaps not the worst trials for him at least.

To cover the first 10k of the joux plane faster than peak pantani is just insane. Back in 2013-15 this would have been a headline. Now it's just meh.

Exactly, it's all due to better resorption of lactate, more aero equipment, better training blah blah blah

 

[Rob5091]

https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...crush-strava-koms-all-through-tour-de-france/
“All the climbs now are just super fast, it’s not so much tactics anymore – you either have the legs or you don’t,” podium contender Jai Hindley told the Cycling Podcast on Friday.
“It’s a 17km climb and he just rode the end like it was a bunch sprint,” Pidcock said of Pogačar. “I was probably doing 700 watts or something, so god knows what he was doing.”
"Riders like Pogačar or Vingegaard can ride uphill bonkers-fast and then go even faster in a kick for the summit."

 

[Red Rick]

My impression is that everyone else is still in the trial and error phase/trying to find the best responders while UAE and Jumbo just make a remake of Chicken vs Contador, with both of them having US Postal style teams.

Think that's the fundamental question right now. Is it mainly a difference in response or just going harder on the juice.

 

[Aimar16]

according to lanternerouge, if they kept their pace they would have finished in: 32:37 (assuming they could keep it ofcourse )

Pogačar and Vingegaard Fly up Joux Plane | Tour de France Stage 14 2023 - Lanterne Rouge

It was an extremely hard climbing day and Jumbo-Visma took advantage of the route and paced hard all day, never letting the breakaway get any advantage. Thomas Pidcock who was the 3rd fastest climber from the GC group on Puy de Dome and Galibier even got distanced on the Col de la Ramaz more...

lanternerouge.com

Surely if Pogacar could have kept that pace he would have kept it and not waited for Vingegaard.

Might push it to 15 if you follow the standards of a modern cyclist:

• hefty tailwind (always)
• faster bikes (heavier though)
• better nutrition (eat before, during and after the ride)
• better training methods (riding at threshold power instead of threshold heart rate, forget about PE)
• keep it easy before the climb (always)
• bike fit (comfort is everything)

And reduce the stage length by 30%

 

[Red Rick]

Surely if Pogacar could have kept that pace he would have kept it and not waited for Vingegaard.



And reduce the stage length by 30%

I'm inclined to think they wouldn't have held the pace cause they were trying to ride away from each other/catch each other so they would pretty naturally go over their limit even if jut a little bit.

Also if you wanna beat Pantani o nthe first 10-15s of a climb what you really need is a higher starting velocity.

 

[Riek s]

https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...crush-strava-koms-all-through-tour-de-france/
“All the climbs now are just super fast, it’s not so much tactics anymore – you either have the legs or you don’t,” podium contender Jai Hindley told the Cycling Podcast on Friday.
“It’s a 17km climb and he just rode the end like it was a bunch sprint,” Pidcock said of Pogačar. “I was probably doing 700 watts or something, so god knows what he was doing.”
"Riders like Pogačar or Vingegaard can ride uphill bonkers-fast and then go even faster in a kick for the summit."

So we get more and more riders who start to drop hints, talk about the double velocity, ... This is the beginning of the 90ies all over again.

Surely if Pogacar could have kept that pace he would have kept it and not waited for Vingegaard.

And reduce the stage length by 30%

Sure. But they would still have 20s plus buffer. So they could slow down 10s/km? (not completely clear on which point they stopped riding). If they kept riding it would have been very close to the record (before or behind it).

 

[Rob5091]

So it's now "full gas" all the time, until there's no gas left, I suppose. Riders talking back in February to the press, and now more "WTF is going on" from guys in the peloton.

 

[Aimar16]

Sure. But they would still have 20s plus buffer. So they could slow down 10s/km? (not completely clear on which point they stopped riding). If they kept riding it would have been very close to the record (before or behind it).

They had a 20-second lead at the top of the climb which then increased to 30 seconds. They stopped completely on the short flattish section where Rodriguez and Yates caught them.

 

[Riek s]

They had a 20-second lead at the top of the climb which then increased to 30 seconds. They stopped completely on the short flattish section where Rodriguez and Yates caught them.

I'm not understanding your point, so maybe you missed mine .

The 20seconds buffer was in relation to the estimated time if they didn't slow down and pantani's time. Which they would have beaten by 20seconds if they didn't slow down.

So they could have went about 10s/km slower (assuming they started freewheeling 2k before the top). Hence even if they would have slowed down a bit, it would have been very very close to pantanis time.

 

[tyson766]

There is a very revealing moment in “the Armstrong Lie” movie, where Ferrari describes Lance at his peak. ’The best Lance with 1k test was 7, more than 7. The best Lance was the year of the last tour win. He won the tour like (mimes casually puffing on a cigarette). It was impressive. Lance took it easy because if you win by too much, everybody goes blah blah.’

I think we have been at that point for a while, where winning performances have been a charade, doper teams controlling stages barely breaking a sweat and then carefully choosing certain peaks to build up more than minute long gaps, limiting the number of extraterrestrial performances. The complication this year is there are two extraterrestrials, and they are pushing each other to record breaking power numbers regularly. Pog is clearly the stronger of the two this year, and I suspect he has pulled back on his performances to just mark or push Vingegaard rather than beat him. I‘m almost 100% sure he will pull one ridiculously dominant performance out of the bag before the end of the tour to seal his victory.

 

[Aimar16]

I'm not understanding your point, so maybe you missed mine .

The 20seconds buffer was in relation to the estimated time if they didn't slow down and pantani's time. Which they would have beaten by 20seconds if they didn't slow down.

So they could have went about 10s/km slower (assuming they started freewheeling 2k before the top). Hence even if they would have slowed down a bit, it would have been very very close to pantanis time.

Yeah, I completely misunderstood. I was talking about a margin of 20 seconds that Pogacar and Vingegaard still had over Rodriguez at the top of the climb. And they lost 45 seconds to him in the last 1.7 kilometres from the top of the climb

 

[Riek s]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1680576874504679426

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1680576874504679426

 

[Rackham]

I love this Team Sky Tour with Kwiatkowski & Wout Poels getting their glory.

It's like a fun nostalgia trip.

 

[Rob5091]

Vingegaard explains the high speed racing -
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jo...scepticism-about-tour-de-france-performances/
“In that way, I fully understand all the questions we get about it. The only thing I can say is I’m not taking anything. But yeah, to be honest, I’m happy there’s a bit of scepticism about it because we are going faster, we are going quicker than back then, maybe. I think it’s a good thing. And also, the food, the material, the training, everything is different."

Everything is different ... but I'm not taking anything! Pane e acqua ... or porridge in Pogacar's case. At least we did n't get, "never tested positive!"

 

[Riek s]

Vingegaard explains the high speed racing -
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jo...scepticism-about-tour-de-france-performances/
“In that way, I fully understand all the questions we get about it. The only thing I can say is I’m not taking anything. But yeah, to be honest, I’m happy there’s a bit of scepticism about it because we are going faster, we are going quicker than back then, maybe. I think it’s a good thing. And also, the food, the material, the training, the doping everything is different."

Everything is different ... but I'm not taking anything! Pane e acqua ... or porridge in Pogacar's case. At least we did n't get, "never tested positive!"

there, i fixed it


His explanation is just a rehersal of what Lance said, what wiggens said, what froome said, what .... said. (ofcourse what else can he say. Before 2021 they rode slower so i couldn't win, but now that we ride faster everywhere it is easy to win?)