State of the peloton 2021

[Netserk]

There's no reason not to think that Jumbo isn't on the same level as Bahrain and UAE (and Ineos too). Van Aert in Tirreno, Roglič in Itzulia, both super alien. The team as a whole already stepped up massively in 2018, they have been at least as ridiculous as Ineos these last few years.

 

[Rackham]

Thomas de Gendt:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1411626456841605122

View: https://twitter.com/LeTour/status/1411626456841605122

i.e. "I hope everyone is tired"

Everyone in the peloton knows. Welcome to the 2000's all over again.

 

[Rackham]

There's no reason not to think that Jumbo isn't on the same level as Bahrain and UAE (and Ineos too). Van Aert in Tirreno, Roglič in Itzulia, both super alien. The team as a whole already stepped up massively in 2018, they have been at least as ridiculous as Ineos these last few years.

JV have been nowhere in the last couple of months. Roglic won Itzulia with a tactical trick (dropping Pogacar 60km from the finish on the queen stage on a descent attack initiated by Astana) but he never dropped Gaudu or put in an alien performance. It seemed to be standard Roglic & pretty much the same as we've seen him for two years now in every race, with his form alternating between super (Vuelta 2019, Tour de L'Ain 2020, Itzulia 2021), okay or tired.

Everyone knows he's good at TT (not the best) & has a wicked punch in an uphill sprint (with mid length climbs in the 10km range with steep gradients in the final sections being his speciality, hence why he has 2 Vueltas).

Padun & Bahrain meanwhile make Roglic & Jumbo look like normal riders.

 

[Mr. 64%]

That's something that's triggered me as well: the fact that the already shady teams are being made to look like Christophe Bassons. Paired with the fact, that we've seen some good domestique-level riders being busted for full blood doping programs in the Aderlass case just a few years ago... Well, i think it tells the story pretty well.

Question still is, are the top guys using the old, tried and tested methods of oxygen vector doping - or is there something new around? A few posters here has talked about the effects of already doping when you're getting your baseline values settled for the bio-pass. Could this be what's given fuel to the rise of young riders as we've seen over the last few years?

A few years ago, there was mutterings of this new Crispr "gene-therapy". It's all gone silent. Do you reckon anything's up with that?

 

[L'arriviste]

Thomas de Gendt:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1411626456841605122

View: https://twitter.com/LeTour/status/1411626456841605122

i.e. "I hope everyone is tired"

Everyone in the peloton knows. Welcome to the 2000's all over again.

De Gendt has since given an interview today to Sporza in which he says:

"Yesterday I did the numbers I would do in a breakaway only I finished 28 minutes down. But I feel just as tired as after I've been in a breakaway ... The day must come when the young guys are better, but they are doing it very suddenly. Normally it is gradual, now they suddenly take over everything ...

"I can't improve. If they ride too fast then I have to accept that ... Then I have to draw my conclusions, cancel my contract and then it's time for something else. If they are better, then so be it.

"Yesterday I rode one of my best '10-minute efforts' ever from the start. I've been recording them since 2013. Normally I would smash it up with those numbers, here I was 100 meters behind a group of 70 riders. And I'd started from the front ... [T]he general level is just much higher."

https://sporza.be/nl/2021/07/04/de-...tdoen-en-tijd-voor-iets-anders~1625394219720/ (NL)

 

[SafeBet]

JV have been nowhere in the last couple of months. Roglic won Itzulia with a tactical trick (dropping Pogacar 60km from the finish on the queen stage on a descent attack initiated by Astana) but he never dropped Gaudu or put in an alien performance. It seemed to be standard Roglic & pretty much the same as we've seen him for two years now in every race, with his form alternating between super (Vuelta 2019, Tour de L'Ain 2020, Itzulia 2021), okay or tired.

Everyone knows he's good at TT (not the best) & has a wicked punch in an uphill sprint (with mid length climbs in the 10km range with steep gradients in the final sections being his speciality, hence why he has 2 Vueltas).

Padun & Bahrain meanwhile make Roglic & Jumbo look like normal riders.

Explain Vingegaard then.
Or an out of form Van Aert being on the virtual podium after one of the craziest, hardest first week in the Tour ever.

Jumbo is just overshadowed by more unbelievable, out of nowhere performances and/or transformations but it's still ridiculous.

 

[Rackham]

Explain Vingegaard then.
Or an out of form Van Aert being on the virtual podium after one of the craziest, hardest first week in the Tour ever.

Jumbo is just overshadowed by more unbelievable, out of nowhere performances and/or transformations but it's still ridiculous.

Van Aert has just been dropped on the Col du Pré & Sepp Kuss is getting outclimbed by Sonny Colbrelli, i.e. a Bahrain sprinter. Vingegaard meanwhile has at least been consistent all year, but in no way alien.

So no, JV are having a completely cr*p Tour de France.

 

[SafeBet]

Van Aert has just been dropped on the Col du Pré & Sepp Kuss is getting outclimbed by Sonny Colbrelli, i.e. a Bahrain sprinter. Vingegaard meanwhile has at least been consistent all year, but in no way alien.

Vingegaard struggled to make the top10 in the U23 NC time trials.
Now he's 30 seconds off winning a time trial at the Tour de France.

I'll concede on Van Aert, although some his climbing performances in the last couple of years are really hard to believe.

 

[hrotha]

Back in the day it was a crapshoot whether ONCE would fly up every climb or become the laughing stock of the Tour.

 

[Riek s]

Vingegaard struggled to make the top10 in the U23 NC time trials.
Now he's 30 seconds off winning a time trial at the Tour de France.

I'll concede on Van Aert, although some his climbing performances in the last couple of years are really hard to believe.

Don't really follow the U23 results, but wasn't Pogacar the same? and he won the TT.

 

[SafeBet]

Same consideration as some riders had starting the 90s when people started using EPo en the performance barrier went

Don't really follow the U23 results, but wasn't Pogacar the same? and he won the TT.

You probably mistake me for someone who believes Pog is clean.

 

[saganftw]

since ben o connor or ag2r dont have their own thread...there was some performance ey? despite bjerg drilling the flat, formolo pulling faces and ineos setting up carapaz he only lost about 2 minutes on the final climb to pogacar and about 90 seconds to the clown possy fighting for podium

 

[ciranda]

He bahrained that stage, Cattaneo as well actually.

Vingegaard struggled to make the top10 in the U23 NC time trials.
Now he's 30 seconds off winning a time trial at the Tour de France.

Kind of similar maybe to Pogacar and Almeida as in not a specialist who has learned (*) how to time trial. Crashed a lot as under 23, broken femur in his third year, crashed out of Aosta with a concussion after winning the mountain time trial the following year. So probably never tried hard or received coaching for time trials as an under.

 

[luckyboy]

De Gendt has since given an interview today to Sporza in which he says:
....

https://sporza.be/nl/2021/07/04/de-...tdoen-en-tijd-voor-iets-anders~1625394219720/ (NL)

Sporza had an article mentioning what Van Avermaet said too - https://sporza.be/nl/2021/07/04/van...zeggen-dat-het-goed-geweest-is~1625394245689/
"I rode my better values and was in the last group. The others just drive faster."

Does he say anything more here?

Van Avermaet: "Ik kan niet zeggen dat het goed geweest is" | sporza

sporza.be

 

[BlueRoads]

since ben o connor or ag2r dont have their own thread...there was some performance ey? despite bjerg drilling the flat, formolo pulling faces and ineos setting up carapaz he only lost about 2 minutes on the final climb to pogacar and about 90 seconds to the clown possy fighting for podium

I need to defend O'Connor here. He's a really good climber, probably about the level of Mas at the moment, but in addition he does especially well in bad conditions and seems to deal well with longer, more atrocious races as well as being a diesel climber who does well on a long, rather steady climb with not too high gradients.
So I think it was perfect for him today. Not saying he's not doping, just that this performance was one that was great but not that surprising to me.
Now if he smashes the next time trial or goes to attack Pogacar, I'll sure change my mind...

 

[Pinot's goat]

Sporza had an article mentioning what Van Avermaet said too - https://sporza.be/nl/2021/07/04/van...zeggen-dat-het-goed-geweest-is~1625394245689/
"I rode my better values and was in the last group. The others just drive faster."

Does he say anything more here?

Van Avermaet: "Ik kan niet zeggen dat het goed geweest is" | sporza

sporza.be

No way his better values are worse than Cavendish, he is just exaggerating and there is no way he did his best numbers in these conditions.

 

[L'arriviste]

Sporza had an article mentioning what Van Avermaet said too - https://sporza.be/nl/2021/07/04/van...zeggen-dat-het-goed-geweest-is~1625394245689/
"I rode my better values and was in the last group. The others just drive faster."

Does he say anything more here?

Van Avermaet: "Ik kan niet zeggen dat het goed geweest is" | sporza

sporza.be

Nothing really substantial here. He said he was personally disappointed with how the first week went for him and because he thinks he can do better. When the interviewer refers to what De Gendt said, GVA replies that it was much the same for him yesterday, less so the day before that, but he feels OK and not unduly tired, he is riding much as he expected but others are just faster. He said he now needs to find a suitable stage in the remainder of the race to try something.

 

[Huapango]

Except for Pogacar you mean, right?

Well, Pogacar looks especially good given how bad his rivals look. I don't think he's necessarily making them look bad, they're just much worse. Jumbo and Ineos are normal teams now with normal riders. To me, that's the story. Did the UCI find the magical reason to why those teams were so dominant in the past and put them on notice? Pogacar is winning with competitors that are going backwards while he's moves forward.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Well, Pogacar looks especially good given how bad his rivals look. I don't think he's necessarily making them look bad, they're just much worse. Jumbo and Ineos are normal teams now with normal riders. To me, that's the story. Did the UCI find the magical reason to why those teams were so dominant in the past and put them on notice? Pogacar is winning with competitors that are going backwards while he's moves forward.

I don't really see everything going faster/harder/crazier as a sign of "what clean looks like" as you put it. Sure, the focus is on the likes of Bahrain and UAE rather than Jumbo/Ineos and many will enjoy the change. It's probably great for the "show" that instead of an expensively-assembled train of top riders dropping rivals and then the leader gaining a bit of time at the end, we have the glorious sight of Pog crushing TT specialists one day and climbers the next, with seemingly effortless ease and more gears to go to any time he needs. We have the entertainment from Bahrain and their rotating roster of winners, allowing us to crack jokes about Padun or Colbrelli's climbing.

But although his comments were mentioned earlier, this article from a veteran is illuminating: https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/de...el-is-just-much-higher-at-the-tour-de-france/

So apart from the entertaining individual efforts, overall, if this is "clean" suddenly, why are the numbers he succeeded with during the "dirty" years no longer enough to avoid getting dropped out the back?

 

[luckyboy]

Merlier is another one who said he's putting his record numbers but still couldn't keep up.

"It just went too fast. I'm in good shape, I think. Proof of this is that I set a personal record today, among other things. But after an hour and a half the legs started to empty. I could no longer follow the grupetto . I didn't want to give up and still try to make it to the finish, but the bus drove so far away that another mental blow followed. It made no sense anymore.”

“I broke my 20 minute record today, in terms of wattages. I also set my second best hour record and my third best hour and a half record. "

Immens ontgoochelde Tim Merlier: "Ben helaas op mijn limieten gebotst"

Interview Tim Merlier heeft de eerste rustdag niet gehaald. Halverwege de tweede Alpenrit moest de 28-jarige sprinter van Alpecin-Fenix de Tour de France verlaten. “Dit was niet het plan. Ik wilde Parijs halen. Ik schaam me zelfs een beetje.” Morgen rijdt Tim Merlier met vriendin Cameron...

www.wielerflits.nl

 

[HelloDolly]

There is something afoot in the peloton

Its not that Pogacar is so good its that so many riders who have come toe Tour in their best shape and they are hours down
And many of these are top riders who have won big races

And I agree with de Gendt ..the change is sudden with a major impact

I can only hope that the final week sees some re balancing

oH and Bahrain ? Cobrelli ? Padun ? ...so strange and no one is asking questions

 

[Volderke]

GvA's interview has a different tone / message: he says he is good but didn't have the chance to show it. He is not so much pointing to other riders, but more to his bad luck with regards to crashes, putting too much effort in his futile breakway and the lack of opportunities to go in the right

No way his better values are worse than Cavendish, he is just exaggerating and there is no way he did his best numbers in these conditions.

GvA saud he pushed his best 10 minutes wattages and was in the last group (on saturday, the interviews was before the stage on sunday).
This could indicate the level is high, but there are many factors at play: if you invest your energy to get the breakaway going, but the peloton isn't easing up, you can easily push your best numbers with no chance on getting away, while some minutes later, the right breakway can happen because the dynamics of the chase are different.

With all of this, I don't want to say that it's nothing of an indicator. If TdG states he is being dropped by 70 riders after having done a very good 10 minutes effort, it is a kind of alert. Ofcourse, it is one for TdG in the first place, and he seems to draw conclusions for his own career. But it's also a good indicator of what's happening in the peloton.

 

[42x16ss]

Van Aert has just been dropped on the Col du Pré & Sepp Kuss is getting outclimbed by Sonny Colbrelli, i.e. a Bahrain sprinter. Vingegaard meanwhile has at least been consistent all year, but in no way alien.

So no, JV are having a completely cr*p Tour de France.

Of course they are after that idiot wiped them all out on stage 3

 

[Platonic]

All I can say is, Olympics look out.

Ineos and that era were for me all using lots and lots of small loopholes to make a larger difference in performance, grey at best.

Some of these UAE/Bahrain team performances and another level harking back to the doping glory years. I don’t even need proof and prosecution at this point, it’s just sad.

Whatever is being used will be exactly the same come 23rd July. Fraser-Pryce already this year knocking in the 2nd fastest 100m of all time (behind another doping era record). It’s all connected, and everyone is keeping quiet to keep the dollars rolling in.

Colbrelli… what’s the point. Already been said.

 

[roundabout]

I need to defend O'Connor here. He's a really good climber, probably about the level of Mas at the moment, but in addition he does especially well in bad conditions and seems to deal well with longer, more atrocious races as well as being a diesel climber who does well on a long, rather steady climb with not too high gradients.
So I think it was perfect for him today. Not saying he's not doping, just that this performance was one that was great but not that surprising to me.
Now if he smashes the next time trial or goes to attack Pogacar, I'll sure change my mind...

313 watts over 4 and a half hours is very impressive for a 67 kg rider. No wonder the rest dropped like flies.