How do we assess teams like ISN, FDJ, Bora or EF (part of the MPCC)? Do they dope the same like UAE, Ineos or Bahrain? Less? Or no illegal stuff?
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State of the peloton 2021: Batshit crazy
Aicar wasn't explicitly banned when everyone was flying at the 2009 Tour (even Wiggins climbed faster than in 2012), right?
I think Cav is doing himself a disservice by chasing down the Merckx record.
These guys should know when to quit, especially when they're ahead.
These guys should know when to quit, especially when they're ahead.
If you read stuff like Tyler Hamilton's book, it's easy to surmise the teams you refer to have their methods... but those methods are already surpassed & dated.
When a team (or teams) destroy everyone & ride harder, faster & better, it's because there's a new trick in town & they're ahead of the pack. I therefor name UAE, Bahrain, DQS & Alpecin as the supreme juice masters of the 2021 Tour de France. Whether their advantage is due to better pharmaceuticals/doctors or the political clout they enjoy, anyone can guess.
But it's now clear 2020 was a Covid outlier (for JV & a couple of others) & those aforementioned teams now have a comfortable advantage to a very comical degree. I honestly haven't seen this sort of boost enjoyed by a handful of teams in quite a while. It's so 1990's all over again.
This is exactly my point - There is confusion between legal doping and illegal doping.
You miss the point - There are many substances that could be used to improve performance or even a combination of substances or even a cocktail of substances - Sports Scientists will continually experiement until they find something that improves performance - But if its not on the WADA list of substances is all fine - I am looking outside the box - An improved performance is not always because athletes are using banned substances/treatments under the WADA code.
I feel like I've posted this many times before, along with other documentation, but if you're going to comment on how the prohibited list works, I would really recommend you read it:
www.wada-ama.org
@hrotha is correct of course, the list doesn't just ban things explicitly by name and there is no such thing as legal doping.
Prohibited List
@hrotha is correct of course, the list doesn't just ban things explicitly by name and there is no such thing as legal doping.
I think that WADA document is very well written, and surprisingly compact. It's a matter of semantics though - if I'm tired in the morning and I drink a double espresso, I'm enhancing my performance (it's specifically mentioned in the list though). Calling that "legal doping" is somewhat misleading, and doesn't concern novel drugs like AICAR, but it's colloquial.
But more practically important, there's obviously a gap between prohibition and testing with some things. Like, fine they are banning "gene doping" wholesale, but how would you ever prove it?
If someone's a ruthless person, then "untestable" is the same as "legal", in fact that used to be the mainstream point of view in the peloton in earlier times.
But more practically important, there's obviously a gap between prohibition and testing with some things. Like, fine they are banning "gene doping" wholesale, but how would you ever prove it?
If someone's a ruthless person, then "untestable" is the same as "legal", in fact that used to be the mainstream point of view in the peloton in earlier times.
Semantics are very important here though, because attempting to tie the word "doping" to something athletes are allowed to do is extremely disingenuous. AICAR has always been banned under the Prohibited List, even before it was named, based on the other clauses in there. Likewise I get what you mean when you say things that can't be detected might be viewed in a similar way to "legal" by some athletes, but again they absolutely are not the same thing and the difference is extremely important.
In terms of catching people, testing isn't the only way as many have found out. Specifically for gene doping, there's a fair amount of work looking at this.
In terms of catching people, testing isn't the only way as many have found out. Specifically for gene doping, there's a fair amount of work looking at this.
Indeed. There are legal ergogenic methods of improving performance. There is doping. Legal methods are not doping. WADA has made a good attempt to also capture subgroups/methods of doping, so even if a particular product or method is not specifically called out, if it falls in that territory, it is still doping.
This is why so-called 'grey areas' where teams will use supplements or medications that are not addressed in WADA as doping might be ethically grey, but are considered 'legal' insofar as banned substances. And this is where teams time and time again "push the envelope".
Sprinters riding the climbing stages like mountain goats. First Colbrelli on Saturday, now Van Aert pounding up Ventoux. I think Van Aert must've put the rest day to good use, looks in phenomenal shape now. Narrowly denied on the line in yesterdays sprint stage and now enroute to winning the Ventoux stage.
everything is normal in this tour, sprinters that can outclimb climbers, climbers that can tt better than tt'ers....this is becoming confirms that this sport is a circus
Soooooooooo...
I get that you're gloating about being proven right but to be honest this just makes me even more bitter about Primoz. I feel Pogacar can be hurt with the right tactics & strong enough riders.
It is the same guys doing these performances: Pogacar, Van der Poel, random Quickstep rider ( Led by Alaphilippe ), random Jumbo rider ( Led by Van Aert and Roglic ofc ), random Bahrain rider, random Ineos rider ( they actually haven't even been that impressive in terms of top level aside from a few races ). Some teams are hilariously left behind in the race.
So boring to see the same riders fighting every time.
So boring to see the same riders fighting every time.
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This has to be the most laughable Tour for some years! So many doped aliens I don't know where to start! Today's freak show was good, Jumbo obviously needed a little boost after the disappointment of Roglic. Enter someone who wins a double Ventoux stage after finishing 2nd in a sprint. And Vingegaard, LOL. And then we have Pogacar, DQS turning someone who couldn't get a top 10 for 3 years into the World's best sprinter. What next I wonder?
I am guessing you needed to keep it to 3 and that is why no vdP? Because I think it is a toss up between vdP, vA, Cav and TP. WvA might even be the least suspicious of these four (lol at even reading that out loud!)
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