State of the Peloton 2024

[Monoxidator]

You have to feel sorry for Pogacar ... he's going to be a domestique for Del Toro next year or the year after.

 

[Ripper]

Looks like the French press might be asking the tough questions now (I can only see the beginning, the rest is behind a paywall)

Pogacar's impossibly fast climb to the Plateau de Beille, the 2024 Tour de France's tipping point

For some years now, each edition of the Tour has had a 'tipping point' when the festive atmosphere at the start gives way to doubts and endless unanswered questions.

www.lemonde.fr

 

[Gratemans]

The idea of huffing on motorcycle fumes is absurd ... that's not what they're doing. They're using precisely dosed gases controlled by highly specialized equipment to progressively overload the system throughout the duration of an altitude camp. Doing this they can probably reach the mythical 60% hema levels previously only seen with massive EPO abuse.

Exhaust fumes have nothing to do with it. It's a funny visual, but it's irrelevant to what's actually happening.

And if the teams are really scummy (like a team run by Gianetti) the gases could be dosed during any sort of lactate test, vo2 test, or hemoglobin test, through the mask without the rider being aware. CO is tasteless and odorless after all.

I'd like to add to this that the article this all came from (hidden behind a paywall of course because f$ck it, we wanna make money off this sport) keeps referring to CO as a 'deadly' and even 'poisonous' gas. Clickbait much?
Carbon monoxide isn't poisonus in the slightest. It just bonds with oxygen which leaves you suffocated when you're in a very small room with it without ventilation. It isn't poisonous in any meaning of the word.

Can it be performance-enhancing? I havent't got the slightest idea. Just wanted to point out that those nice people at escapecollective are just framing it as poison for clickbait.

Anyhow, in another thread here today we established that there is no free press anymore when it comes to cycling. Don't bite the hand that feeds and all that. Ugh.

 

[iceblink]

I'd like to add to this that the article this all came from (hidden behind a paywall of course because f$ck it, we wanna make money off this sport) keeps referring to CO as a 'deadly' and even 'poisonous' gas. Clickbait much?
Carbon monoxide isn't poisonus in the slightest. It just bonds with oxygen which leaves you suffocated when you're in a very small room with it without ventilation. It isn't poisonous in any meaning of the word.

Carbon monoxide poisoning - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SHAD0W93]

I'd like to add to this that the article this all came from (hidden behind a paywall of course because f$ck it, we wanna make money off this sport) keeps referring to CO as a 'deadly' and even 'poisonous' gas. Clickbait much?
Carbon monoxide isn't poisonus in the slightest. It just bonds with oxygen which leaves you suffocated when you're in a very small room with it without ventilation. It isn't poisonous in any meaning of the word.

Can it be performance-enhancing? I havent't got the slightest idea. Just wanted to point out that those nice people at escapecollective are just framing it as poison for clickbait.

Anyhow, in another thread here today we established that there is no free press anymore when it comes to cycling. Don't bite the hand that feeds and all that. Ugh.

If you or anyone else gets bored at night and needs something to read. If you want to purchase one you can get it from a store or Amazon.

Definition of CARBON MONOXIDE

a colorless odorless very toxic gas CO that is formed as a product of the incomplete combustion of carbon or a carbon compound… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Definition of POISON

a substance that through its chemical action usually kills, injures, or impairs an organism; something destructive or harmful; an object of aversion or abhorrence… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Carbon monoxide poisoning

Find out about carbon monoxide poisoning, what the symptoms are, what to do if you have it, what causes it, how it is treated, and how to prevent it.

www.nhs.uk

Carbon monoxide poisoning - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

Carbon Monoxide Poisoning: Pathogenesis, Management, and Future Directions of Therapy - PMC

Carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning affects 50,000 people a year in the United States. The clinical presentation runs a spectrum, ranging from headache and dizziness to coma and death, with a mortality rate ranging from 1 to 3%. A significant number of ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Carbon Monoxide Toxicity - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0960327119891214

 

[Gratemans]

Yes I know it can kill you. As much as a piano can kill you when it falls on your head from a certain height. But CO in itself doesn't do *** unless you find yourself contained in an enclosed small room without ventilation. Can we please go beyond your admirable wikipedia skills and move on to wether it would be harmful (or more interestingly in this context, beneficial) to professional cyclists?

 

[iceblink]

you probably should learn wikipedia skills, then you would find that the article which has references to many sources explains that,

The harmful effects of carbon monoxide are generally considered to be due to tightly binding with the prosthetic heme moiety of hemoproteins that results in interference with cellular operations, for example: carbon monoxide binds with hemoglobin to form carboxyhemoglobin which affects gas exchange and cellular respiration. Inhaling excessive concentrations of the gas can lead to hypoxic injury, nervous system damage, and even death.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Yes I know it can kill you. As much as a piano can kill you when it falls on your head from a certain height. But CO in itself doesn't do *** unless you find yourself contained in an enclosed small room without ventilation. Can we please go beyond your admirable wikipedia skills and move on to wether it would be harmful (or more interestingly in this context, beneficial) to professional cyclists?

It could be beneficial I would think if they find the right amount that doesn’t hamper the rider since you make their body adapt to perform at a high level without enough oxygen. Thus one they’re riding in a normal race condition they should in theory perform at a higher level since their body has acclimated to pushing it hard with the CO in their body.

What if they’re manipulating the hemoglobin though with the carbon monoxide riding in order to increase it as well. Hemoglobin is what’s actually transports everything throughout the body. Then factor in performing at a high level while huffing on fumes, take out as much fumes during the race, and no wonder performances are getting better and better.

I don’t like it either but it makes sense with what we’re seeing that they don’t look like they’re breathing at all on these climbs. Their body got used to operating at a high level while breathing in whatever dose of canton monoxide, thus when it’s removed it increases their performance. Like if I were to wear weighted clothing like Goku in Dragon Ball and remove it, I’ll be faster and stronger just from having carried it around. That could also be why the Jumbo rider was taking a diuretic, instead of just removing water weight they could theoretically have had pulmonary edema and they were removing the fluid from their lungs.

 

[Monoxidator]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339624317_Chronic_Exposure_to_Low_Dose_Carbon_Monoxide_Alters_Hemoglobin_Mass_and_VO2max

 

[Gratemans]

It could be beneficial I would think if they find the right amount that doesn’t hamper the rider since you make their body adapt to perform at a high level without enough oxygen. Thus one they’re riding in a normal race condition they should in theory perform at a higher level since their body has acclimated to pushing it hard with the CO in their body.

Thanks, this was what I was curious about. So this method would just make it a faux-altitude training?

 

[SHAD0W93]

Thanks, this was what I was curious about. So this method would just make it a faux-altitude training?

From what’s been shown, it looks like that and apparently there’s research that it is better than altitude. Or they could do this mixed with altitude, either real or simulated. Kind of reverse if I were to give a patient oxygen but they don’t actually need it, their body will get weaker over time and once that oxygen is removed they will have to work harder to maintain their level.

 

[Nick2413]

The premise behind altitude training is that it requires sustained exposure over weeks to accomplish anything. Is the CO method different, or does it also require many hours a day of exposure? If it were to only require brief exposure, would it really be any different than holding your breath for prolonged periods of time?

 

[Monoxidator]

The premise behind altitude training is that it requires sustained exposure over weeks to accomplish anything. Is the CO method different, or does it also require many hours a day of exposure? If it were to only require brief exposure, would it really be any different than holding your breath for prolonged periods of time?

From the 2020 study:
METHODS
Subjects. Twenty-two healthy and moderately trained male subjects volunteered for the study. All subjects provided written informed consent, which included the aim and possible risks of the study. The study was approved by the local ethics committee of the University of Bayreuth.
The subjects were randomly distributed to the intervention group (n = 11) inhaling CO or to the placebo group (n = 11) inhaling air instead. Table 1 provides the anthropometric and performance data for all subjects.

Design of the study.
The study was performed using a blinded, placebo-controlled design consisting of a 1-wk baseline period, a 3-wk intervention period, and a 3-wk posttreatment period. The aim of the study was to evaluate the effects
of an increase in blood CO–hemoglobin concentration (COHb) by approximately 5% on Hbmass and performance.
For this purpose, subjects inhaled a predetermined CO bolus five times per day, starting at 8 AM and then every 4 h until midnight. Subjects were allowed to sleep from midnight to 8 AM without taking a CO bolus. The placebo group inhaled an ambient air bolus instead of CO from identical syringes on the same time schedule. In order to detect possible hypoxic side effects, the Lake Louise Score, which was originally developed for acute stays at high altitude, was determined daily.
Hbmass was determined using the optimized CO rebreathing method (5) twice before and every week during the inhalation period as well as 2, 7, and 21 d after this period. Two cubital venous blood samples were collected in heparinized (2 mL) and serum separator (5 mL) vacutainer tubes. These samples were taken before and every week during the inhalation period as well as 2, 7, 14, and 21 d after this period.
These samples were used for the determination of basic hematological values as well as reticulocytes, ferritin, serum EPO, hepcidin, and serum transferrin receptor concentration. V˙ O2max was determined before and at the end of the intervention period and 1 wk thereafter.

Inhalation of CO and calculation of the inhaled CO
volume.
The CO bolus was administered via a 100-mL syringe. The CO volume was directly inhaled from the syringe, and subjects were instructed to hold their breath for 30 s followed by a rebreathing period of 1.5 min from an anesthetic bag (3.5 L) containing ambient air. The first bolus of the CO volume was calculated from the baseline Hbmass measurements where 0.8–1.0 mL·kg−1 body mass (70.4 ± 4.9 mL, depending on the training state of the subject) increased COHb by 4.7% ± 0.4%. The target COHb concentration was 7% in the seventh minute after the bolus inhalation. Because the COHb concentration did not return to baseline until the following CO administration, COHb was measured in capillarized blood immediately before the further CO inhalations, and the respective inhaled CO volume was calculated according to formula 1...


RESULTS:
Results: In the CO group, Hbmass increased from 919 ± 69 to 962 ± 78 g in week 3 (P < 0.001) and was maintained for the following 3 wk. Reticulocytes (%) and immature reticulocyte fraction significantly increased after 1 wk. Serum erythropoietin concentration tended to increase after 1 wk (P = 0.07) and was suppressed in the postperiod (P < 0.01). Ferritin decreased during the inhalation period (from 106 ± 37 to 72 ± 37 ng·mL−1
, P < 0.001). V˙ O2max tended to increase from 4230 ± 280 to 4350 ± 350 mL·min−1 (P < 0.1) immediately after the inhalation period and showed a significant relationship to the change in Hbmass (y = 4.1x − 73.4, r = 0.70, P < 0.001).
Conclusions:
Chronic continuous exposure to low-dose CO enhances erythropoietic processes
resulting in a 4.8% increase in Hbmass. The individual changes in Hbmass were correlated to the corresponding changes in V˙ O 2max. Examination of ethical and safety concerns is warranted before the implementation of low-dose CO inhalation in the clinical/athletic setting as a tool for modifying Hbmass.

 

[Monoxidator]

Crazy results ... 3 weeks resulted in a 5% gain in Hbmass with a 3 week retention.

 

[Nick2413]

From the 2020 study:
METHODS
Subjects. Twenty-two healthy and moderately trained male subjects volunteered for the study. All subjects provided written informed consent, which included the aim and possible risks of the study. The study was approved by the local ethics committee of the University of Bayreuth.
The subjects were randomly distributed to the intervention group (n = 11) inhaling CO or to the placebo group (n = 11) inhaling air instead. Table 1 provides the anthropometric and performance data for all subjects.

Design of the study.
The study was performed using a blinded, placebo-controlled design consisting of a 1-wk baseline period, a 3-wk intervention period, and a 3-wk posttreatment period. The aim of the study was to evaluate the effects
of an increase in blood CO–hemoglobin concentration (COHb) by approximately 5% on Hbmass and performance.
For this purpose, subjects inhaled a predetermined CO bolus five times per day, starting at 8 AM and then every 4 h until midnight. Subjects were allowed to sleep from midnight to 8 AM without taking a CO bolus. The placebo group inhaled an ambient air bolus instead of CO from identical syringes on the same time schedule. In order to detect possible hypoxic side effects, the Lake Louise Score, which was originally developed for acute stays at high altitude, was determined daily.
Hbmass was determined using the optimized CO rebreathing method (5) twice before and every week during the inhalation period as well as 2, 7, and 21 d after this period. Two cubital venous blood samples were collected in heparinized (2 mL) and serum separator (5 mL) vacutainer tubes. These samples were taken before and every week during the inhalation period as well as 2, 7, 14, and 21 d after this period.
These samples were used for the determination of basic hematological values as well as reticulocytes, ferritin, serum EPO, hepcidin, and serum transferrin receptor concentration. V˙ O2max was determined before and at the end of the intervention period and 1 wk thereafter.

Inhalation of CO and calculation of the inhaled CO
volume.
The CO bolus was administered via a 100-mL syringe. The CO volume was directly inhaled from the syringe, and subjects were instructed to hold their breath for 30 s followed by a rebreathing period of 1.5 min from an anesthetic bag (3.5 L) containing ambient air. The first bolus of the CO volume was calculated from the baseline Hbmass measurements where 0.8–1.0 mL·kg−1 body mass (70.4 ± 4.9 mL, depending on the training state of the subject) increased COHb by 4.7% ± 0.4%. The target COHb concentration was 7% in the seventh minute after the bolus inhalation. Because the COHb concentration did not return to baseline until the following CO administration, COHb was measured in capillarized blood immediately before the further CO inhalations, and the respective inhaled CO volume was calculated according to formula 1...


RESULTS:
Results: In the CO group, Hbmass increased from 919 ± 69 to 962 ± 78 g in week 3 (P < 0.001) and was maintained for the following 3 wk. Reticulocytes (%) and immature reticulocyte fraction significantly increased after 1 wk. Serum erythropoietin concentration tended to increase after 1 wk (P = 0.07) and was suppressed in the postperiod (P < 0.01). Ferritin decreased during the inhalation period (from 106 ± 37 to 72 ± 37 ng·mL−1
, P < 0.001). V˙ O2max tended to increase from 4230 ± 280 to 4350 ± 350 mL·min−1 (P < 0.1) immediately after the inhalation period and showed a significant relationship to the change in Hbmass (y = 4.1x − 73.4, r = 0.70, P < 0.001).
Conclusions:
Chronic continuous exposure to low-dose CO enhances erythropoietic processes
resulting in a 4.8% increase in Hbmass. The individual changes in Hbmass were correlated to the corresponding changes in V˙ O 2max. Examination of ethical and safety concerns is warranted before the implementation of low-dose CO inhalation in the clinical/athletic setting as a tool for modifying Hbmass.

Thanks. Wow. So the CO takes many hours to get out of the system. Seems like an easy way for anyone to improve performance by 3-5% without having to bother with altitude. Has there been talk whether this is considered a banned method?

 

[Monoxidator]

Right, the protocol is to put another dose in as soon as it dissipates to normal levels, never letting the body fully reset.

Thanks. Wow. So the CO takes many hours to get out of the system. Seems like an easy way for anyone to improve performance by 3-5% without having to bother with altitude. Has there been talk whether this is considered a banned method?

I would say 5% is a low end estimate. If 3 weeks is 5%, what is 6 weeks going to get you? And if it takes 3 weeks for the effects to dissipate, what’s to say you can’t take a 2 week break and come back to it without fully resetting to baseline.

At the very least, you can peak all year.

 

[Nick2413]

Right, the protocol is to put another dose in as soon as it dissipates to normal levels, never letting the body fully reset.

I would say 5% is a low end estimate. If 3 weeks is 5%, what is 6 weeks going to get you? And if it takes 3 weeks for the effects to dissipate, what’s to say you can’t take a 2 week break and come back to it without fully resetting to baseline.

At the very least, you can peak all year.

I don’t see why this wouldn’t be the next big thing for the masses even outside the pro field if it’s really that simple. There’s probably some red tape on getting a hold of the device but breathing into a bag a few times a day for a ~5% performance gain is nuts.

This should bring up hematocrit though so would it just be in lieu of blood doping or somehow work synergistically or even better..?

 

[noob]

For so many years wondering what they might be doing and now having a plausible explanation this macabre is absolutely mind boggling in itself, and then the very thought it can be done without consent is terrifying. It feels like rereading Thomas Dekkers graphic book.

And then to think of the opposing end of people affected by PEM and how it might possibly help, like LC, ME etc.

I just hope something good comes from it.

 

[Shakes]

Journalism and sport. Is there a more toxic combination?

Doping allegations are unjust

Let's ask two people within cycling why it's not doping. Then we tackled that subject and can move on and say again how Pogacar is giving cycling lessons to the rest of the peloton (literal quote yesterday during Eurosport broadcast). Just like everyone did during the Armstrong years. He was working harder, more innovative, high cadence and just better than everyone.

'journalism' and the repetitive cyclus.

They did not ask why your winning performances went from 6.2wkg at end of a stage with 40 minute climb to close to 7. Why years ago high carb intake and importance of it was already know. Weight limits on bike leaving only very marginal aero gains (especially in mountain stages). Heat training also isnt new. No, for the wide audience let's just play stupid again. Lack any and all criticism. Just to proof sports journalists can't be called journalists, just fanboys that are happy with a free item of their favorite sportsperson.

 

[Andon]

I don’t see why this wouldn’t be the next big thing for the masses even outside the pro field if it’s really that simple. There’s probably some red tape on getting a hold of the device but breathing into a bag a few times a day for a ~5% performance gain is nuts.

If this actually works then it's a huge thing in the Paris olympics and there's no way to keep it in some constrained circles of "richest cycling teams" and it's going to be very well known across the field.
But I don't know, it all sounds maybe a bit too "easy" to explain this TdF. The entire thing is probably a few layers of complexity and micro-managing science on top of the "peloton baseline". Should be interesting to read about this in 10 years or so.

 

[noob]

Journalism and sport. Is there a more toxic combination?

Doping allegations are unjust

Let's ask two people within cycling why it's not doping. Then we tackled that subject and can move on and say again how Pogacar is giving cycling lessons to the rest of the peloton (literal quote yesterday during Eurosport broadcast). Just like everyone did during the Armstrong years. He was working harder, more innovative, high cadence and just better than everyone.

'journalism' and the repetitive cyclus.

They did not ask why your winning performances went from 6.2wkg at end of a stage with 40 minute climb to close to 7. Why years ago high carb intake and importance of it was already know. Weight limits on bike leaving only very marginal aero gains (especially in mountain stages). Heat training also isnt new. No, for the wide audience let's just play stupid again. Lack any and all criticism. Just to proof sports journalists can't be called journalists, just fanboys that are happy with a free item of their favorite sportsperson.

This is true for celeb "journalism" too and a lot of business or even political journalism too sadly. And as someone with a journalist degree it drives me nuts!

 

[noob]

Anyone else knew there was a double benefit to being behind the motos?

 

[Monoxidator]

Yes absolutely other sports are doing this. Any sport where altitude training is commonplace is likely doing this.

If this actually works then it's a huge thing in the Paris olympics and there's no way to keep it in some constrained circles of "richest cycling teams" and it's going to be very well known across the field.
But I don't know, it all sounds maybe a bit too "easy" to explain this TdF. The entire thing is probably a few layers of complexity and micro-managing science on top of the "peloton baseline". Should be interesting to read about this in 10 years or so.

 

[Ripper]

Journalism and sport. Is there a more toxic combination?

Doping allegations are unjust

Let's ask two people within cycling why it's not doping. Then we tackled that subject and can move on and say again how Pogacar is giving cycling lessons to the rest of the peloton (literal quote yesterday during Eurosport broadcast). Just like everyone did during the Armstrong years. He was working harder, more innovative, high cadence and just better than everyone.

'journalism' and the repetitive cyclus.

They did not ask why your winning performances went from 6.2wkg at end of a stage with 40 minute climb to close to 7. Why years ago high carb intake and importance of it was already know. Weight limits on bike leaving only very marginal aero gains (especially in mountain stages). Heat training also isnt new. No, for the wide audience let's just play stupid again. Lack any and all criticism. Just to proof sports journalists can't be called journalists, just fanboys that are happy with a free item of their favorite sportsperson.

Meanwhile, Le Monde publishes an article that last Sunday was the "tipping point", where things become less believable

 

[Monoxidator]

Meanwhile, Le Monde publishes an article that last Sunday was the "tipping point", where things become less believable

Paywall article. In the first paragraphs they talk about how the "discussion" has reached a tipping point, but I'm not sure if they actually say the performances have.