State of the Peloton 2024

[Froome]

It’ll be crazy af if Visma and UAE take us too even more heights. They might need to attach parachutes to Pog and Vinge so they can safely get back down after flying off the mountain top.

This will only stop when the authorities decide to do something. Until then, Visma will want to raise the bar next year. It wasn't just the crashes, they were surpassed by emirates this year, on this war of magic potion.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

What's happening is wild right now. I mean, this sh!t is crazy.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

It’ll be crazy af if Visma and UAE take us too even more heights. They might need to attach parachutes to Pog and Vinge so they can safely get back down after flying off the mountain top.

Can't wait to Teddy vs Skeletor season 2025. We will see what our heros and their medical dream teams have in store. There'll be no holding back, that's for sure!

 

[Escarabajo]

It’ll be crazy af if Visma and UAE take us too even more heights. They might need to attach parachutes to Pog and Vinge so they can safely get back down after flying off the mountain top.

Well, in the 90's there was a doctor who called the UCI to warn them to stop the nonsense or at least to add some better controls before people start getting hurt. The suggestion at that moment was the hematocrit level max. That was because of a lack of a good test for the EPO.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Can't wait to Teddy vs Skeletor season 2025. We will see what our heros and their medical dream teams have in store. There'll be no holding back, that's for sure!

Until the wattages get so high that their bodies overheat and the fever gets too high...

Btw, what happened to Landa today and yesterday? Dropped on a cat. 4 yesterday, but 5th today on the MTF. Side effects from re-fueling?

 

[zlev11]

so it all started with Hirschi, you mean?

I honestly see the Vuelta more as lower level, late season race, so it'x not super unusual to have unexpected results - guys like Marczynski, Storer or Vine won multiple stages "out of nowhere" as well, for examble. But it for sure is a very remarkable performace by Kern Pharma so far, even considering that its their absolute highlight of the season, while most others are waiting for their holiday to begin.

yes it makes a bit more sense when you consider that Kern has probably targeted the Vuelta the entire season. they're only winning from breakaways. the 2nd Castrillo win was wild, but the other two wins not so much. most of the riders in those breakaways are at the end of a long season in their 2nd grand tour of the year.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Ilkhan Dostiyev (Astana Dev) popped for CERA, old school.

Notably won Turul Romaniei and 2nd behind Widar in Valle d'Aosta, he was actually good, now I guess we know why.

Some of those lads have been absolutely flying recently, they Gewiss'd a mountain stage in Romania.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Ilkhan Dostiyev (Astana Dev) popped for CERA, old school.

Notably won Turul Romaniei and 2nd behind Widar in Valle d'Aosta, he was actually good, now I guess we know why.

Some of those lads have been absolutely flying recently, they Gewiss'd a mountain stage in Romania.

Finally we got a rider testing positive for the real good stuff, although he will probably still blame it on having shared a tissue with a soigneur, who had treated a nosebleed with their grandmother's homemade fungal cream.

 

[zlev11]

there we go, they got em. peloton clean now.

 

[ingsve]

I just listened to a podcast with Jörgen Nordhagen. It was a skiing podcast but they ended up talking a lot about cycling and one thing that Nordhagen said stood out to me.

They were talking about eating habits and how many skiers are not very professional in their fuelling and sort of just go by feel rather than a strict nutritionist diet and especially refuelling during races. Nordhagen said that this was also more common in cycling like 20 years ago and since then the peloton has become a lot more professional in terms of what they eat and how much and what they eat during races etc. He said that this is likely a reason for the numbers that the top cyclists are putting out these days.

How does that sound to you? Are Pog and Vingegaard and the lot able to put out the watts they do simply because they have far better control over their fuel intake than past generations had?

Here is a link to the podcast: https://t.co/cH3paREbym

 

[Froome]

I just listened to a podcast with Jörgen Nordhagen. It was a skiing podcast but they ended up talking a lot about cycling and one thing that Nordhagen said stood out to me.

They were talking about eating habits and how many skiers are not very professional in their fuelling and sort of just go by feel rather than a strict nutritionist diet and especially refuelling during races. Nordhagen said that this was also more common in cycling like 20 years ago and since then the peloton has become a lot more professional in terms of what they eat and how much and what they eat during races etc. He said that this is likely a reason for the numbers that the top cyclists are putting out these days.

How does that sound to you? Are Pog and Vingegaard and the lot able to put out the watts they do simply because they have far better control over their fuel intake than past generations had?

Here is a link to the podcast: https://t.co/cH3paREbym

Nordhagen is so young, but he already knows how to tell the usual BS.

Lance Armstrong should recover his seven Tours de France.

 

[Sciatic]

I just listened to a podcast with Jörgen Nordhagen. It was a skiing podcast but they ended up talking a lot about cycling and one thing that Nordhagen said stood out to me.

They were talking about eating habits and how many skiers are not very professional in their fuelling and sort of just go by feel rather than a strict nutritionist diet and especially refuelling during races. Nordhagen said that this was also more common in cycling like 20 years ago and since then the peloton has become a lot more professional in terms of what they eat and how much and what they eat during races etc. He said that this is likely a reason for the numbers that the top cyclists are putting out these days.

How does that sound to you? Are Pog and Vingegaard and the lot able to put out the watts they do simply because they have far better control over their fuel intake than past generations had?

Here is a link to the podcast: https://t.co/cH3paREbym

Sounds like some of the justifications made during past eras for faster times . . . Spinning (Armstrong), pillows and hand washing (Sky), etc

if there’s one thing the better nutrition should do is help them get sick less, but there’s no evidence of that.

 

[ingsve]

Nordhagen is so young, but he already knows how to tell the usual BS.

Lance Armstrong should recover his seven Tours de France.

My guess is he's simply repeating what people in his team are saying.

 

[ingsve]

Sounds like some of the justifications made during past eras for faster times . . . Spinning (Armstrong), pillows and hand washing (Sky), etc

if there’s one thing the better nutrition should do is help them get sick less, but there’s no evidence of that.

If we just go by the basic claim made, has the way riders refuel before and especially during a race changed much in the past 20 years? Did they keep strict control over calorie targets each hour of racing or did rider go more by feel rather than planning back then? How has the food they eat changed? From recollection there were gels back then as well right or was it still the days of white bread and jam etc.? Or when did the gels enter the peloton? Has gels and the other stuff they eat changed much during this time?

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I just listened to a podcast with Jörgen Nordhagen. It was a skiing podcast but they ended up talking a lot about cycling and one thing that Nordhagen said stood out to me.

They were talking about eating habits and how many skiers are not very professional in their fuelling and sort of just go by feel rather than a strict nutritionist diet and especially refuelling during races. Nordhagen said that this was also more common in cycling like 20 years ago and since then the peloton has become a lot more professional in terms of what they eat and how much and what they eat during races etc. He said that this is likely a reason for the numbers that the top cyclists are putting out these days.

How does that sound to you? Are Pog and Vingegaard and the lot able to put out the watts they do simply because they have far better control over their fuel intake than past generations had?

Here is a link to the podcast: https://t.co/cH3paREbym

This explanation has been given for quite a while now, apparently more consistent intake of more carbs at the right time is supposed to do most of the trick, if I remember correctly.

The problem is: this kind of explanation tends to come up when stuff needs to be explained away. Give a good sounding answer, so the question dies in infancy. More professionallism, better nutrition, more modern training methods has been the explanation more or less every single time why performances are clean, or much better than historical performances.
It's just that these explanations usually turned out to cover stories for actual Doping. Even the old "lactate threshhold" story from the Lance days has returned and is being applied to Pogacar to explain some of his dominance. Basically they are saying that they are much better than the EPO days now, because of bread and water at the exactly right times, plus good sleep, altitude camps and "more science" or more recently magical gains as promoted by Sky.

 

[ingsve]

This explanation has been given for quite a while now, apparently more consistent intake of more carbs at the right time is supposed to do most of the trick, if I remember correctly.

The problem is: this kind of explanation tends to come up when stuff needs to be explained away. Give a good sounding answer, so the question dies in infancy. More professionallism, better nutrition, more modern training methods has been the explanation more or less every single time why performances are clean, or much better than historical performances.
It's just that these explanations usually turned out to cover stories for actual Doping. Even the old "lactate threshhold" story from the Lance days has returned and is being applied to Pogacar to explain some of his dominance. Basically they are saying that they are much better than the EPO days now, because of bread and water at the exactly right times, plus good sleep, altitude camps and "more science" or more recently magical gains as promoted by Sky.

Still, even with the suspicions that will always exist in this sport, that type of evolution in results over time which is said to be due to better training, better material etc. is seen in most sports, so why wouldn't it be just as true in cycling?

Or perhaps the answer is simply that all other sports are just as crooked and the reason Mondo Duplantis keeps breaking the pole vault record multiple times per year is simply due to better doping.

 

[peterfin]

The problem with focusing on more fine-tuned eating habits is that it doesn't explain climb performances that are at or above the limits what is physically possible in optimal conditions. It can explain an increase in average performance of the peleton and as such metrics such as average peleton speed could see some improvements but the impact should be less on individuals who are already maximizing their output.

 

[E_F_]

What really makes me think nutrition (and all other marginal improvements constantly touted) is a bad explanation is the massive leaps and bounds we're seeing in performance. There's no correlating non-marginal improvements being made from year to year.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Ilkhan Dostiyev from the Astana developmental team just got busted for CERA.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/as...n-dostiyev-after-blood-booster-cera-positive/
The guy was never impressive in the junior or u23 ranks before this year, then he was suddenly surprisingly good in Rwanda and he was suddenly able to hang with Widar in the Giro della Valle d'Aosta, where he finished 2nd on the gc.

It's one of those instances where I can believe that a rider went rouge himself, because no way a WT developmental team is still using CERA nowadays.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Still, even with the suspicions that will always exist in this sport, that type of evolution in results over time which is said to be due to better training, better material etc. is seen in most sports, so why wouldn't it be just as true in cycling?

Or perhaps the answer is simply that all other sports are just as crooked and the reason Mondo Duplantis keeps breaking the pole vault record multiple times per year is simply due to better doping.

Evolution is to be expected, yet some world records from very dark doping times are still intact, or lasted forever before being overtaken by supposedly cleaner, yet more modern athletes.

But it's not even evolution we've seen. The increase compared to partly the same riders before 2020 is to big, the step from last year to this is just insane. Also we know they are not just beating times from the heydays of EPO, but they are beating them by minutes.

There is also the question of just how much evolution can be expected in human beings, and how much can be optimised by science. Our basic physiological makeup isn't just changing, and especially not just because some sports are getting more professional.

Duplantis I guess is a more complicated matter, because it's a very technical sport, but I am sure strength and speed plays a role in it as well, Duplantis recently won some sort of sprint dual agaist a very fast hurdles guy I forgot the name of.

Of course evolution in methods, knowledge, possibilities is always going to have an impact, but the explanation still has a historically bad track record when it comes to smoke screens to obscure the view on doping related results.

 

[Sciatic]

If we just go by the basic claim made, has the way riders refuel before and especially during a race changed much in the past 20 years? Did they keep strict control over calorie targets each hour of racing or did rider go more by feel rather than planning back then? How has the food they eat changed? From recollection there were gels back then as well right or was it still the days of white bread and jam etc.? Or when did the gels enter the peloton? Has gels and the other stuff they eat changed much during this time?

Just consider a couple of things:
—everything in a gel you can get in a water bottle. Pros were using energy drinks with sugar, electrolytes, etc back in the ‘80’s. Gels have probably resulted in fewer guys bonking because they can always have an extra gel with them, but don’t explain faster times.
—the irony is that the type of race where overall nutrition and in-race eating could make a small difference are the 220km tappones with 5 HC or Cat 1 climbs, where it would be tough to keep getting enough calories in. But they don’t have those stages anymore. Roglic’s monster record on Stage 19 was a mono climb at the end of a typical shorter stage. It’s not hard to keep glycogen levels topped off when riding in the shelter of the peloton and teammates bringing bottles.

 

[ingsve]

Just consider a couple of things:
—everything in a gel you can get in a water bottle. Pros were using energy drinks with sugar, electrolytes, etc back in the ‘80’s. Gels have probably resulted in fewer guys bonking because they can always have an extra gel with them, but don’t explain faster times.
—the irony is that the type of race where overall nutrition and in-race eating could make a small difference are the 220km tappones with 5 HC or Cat 1 climbs, where it would be tough to keep getting enough calories in. But they don’t have those stages anymore. Roglic’s monster record on Stage 19 was a mono climb at the end of a typical shorter stage. It’s not hard to keep glycogen levels topped off when riding in the shelter of the peloton and teammates bringing bottles.

OK, that seems reasonable.

Speaking of shorter stages btw, Has there been any analysis on these record times in terms of where they appear in a stage? It's of course no surprise if a rider at the end of a short stage will climb a hill faster than someone doing the same hill after a much longer and tougher stage.

 

[Sciatic]

OK, that seems reasonable.

Speaking of shorter stages btw, Has there been any analysis on these record times in terms of where they appear in a stage? It's of course no surprise if a rider at the end of a short stage will climb a hill faster than someone doing the same hill after a much longer and tougher stage.

I’m sure someone on here has that info.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Ilkhan Dostiyev from the Astana developmental team just got busted for CERA.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/as...n-dostiyev-after-blood-booster-cera-positive/
The guy was never impressive in the junior or u23 ranks before this year, then he was suddenly surprisingly good in Rwanda and he was suddenly able to hang with Widar in the Giro della Valle d'Aosta, where he finished 2nd on the gc.

It's one of those instances where I can believe that a rider went rouge himself, because no way a WT developmental team is still using CERA nowadays.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1833438151550931391

View: https://x.com/AstanaQazDev/status/1833438151550931391?t=1wsP-qxqayiLS1yRiOYumg&s=19

 

[Netserk]

I just listened to a podcast with Jörgen Nordhagen. It was a skiing podcast but they ended up talking a lot about cycling and one thing that Nordhagen said stood out to me.

They were talking about eating habits and how many skiers are not very professional in their fuelling and sort of just go by feel rather than a strict nutritionist diet and especially refuelling during races. Nordhagen said that this was also more common in cycling like 20 years ago and since then the peloton has become a lot more professional in terms of what they eat and how much and what they eat during races etc. He said that this is likely a reason for the numbers that the top cyclists are putting out these days.

How does that sound to you? Are Pog and Vingegaard and the lot able to put out the watts they do simply because they have far better control over their fuel intake than past generations had?

Here is a link to the podcast: https://t.co/cH3paREbym

That was how Sky explained Froome's Finestre raid in 2018. But keep in mind that Froome was no better than he was in 2015 or 2013. At best, it's a marginal improvement. Sky were no stronger in 2019 than they were in 2013-2015.

The overall level of the best climbers was quite stable from 2013 to 2019. Then a jump and gradual increase from 2019/2020 to 2023. Then a massive jump in July this year, maybe even bigger and more sudden than the jump in performances from EPO.

How plausible is it for better nutrition to cause almost a 10 % improvement in W/kg overnight? After several years where it has been used to explain away previous gains?