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State of the Peloton 2024

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Netserk

Netserk

Apr 30, 2011
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ingsve said:
OK, that seems reasonable.

Speaking of shorter stages btw, Has there been any analysis on these record times in terms of where they appear in a stage? It's of course no surprise if a rider at the end of a short stage will climb a hill faster than someone doing the same hill after a much longer and tougher stage.
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Plateau de Beille was at the end of a harder stage that was raced much harder than previously. Agnès was climbed ~10 % faster than in 2004 and 2011 by the peloton. More vertical meters and greater energy expenditure than any previous PdB stage.
 
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Squire

Squire

Dec 28, 2010
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Mayomaniac said:
Ilkhan Dostiyev from the Astana developmental team just got busted for CERA.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/as...n-dostiyev-after-blood-booster-cera-positive/
The guy was never impressive in the junior or u23 ranks before this year, then he was suddenly surprisingly good in Rwanda and he was suddenly able to hang with Widar in the Giro della Valle d'Aosta, where he finished 2nd on the gc.

It's one of those instances where I can believe that a rider went rouge himself, because no way a WT developmental team is still using CERA nowadays.
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In today's least surprising news ... :D
 
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Bolder

Jun 25, 2015
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Netserk said:
That was how Sky explained Froome's Finestre raid in 2018. But keep in mind that Froome was no better than he was in 2015 or 2013. At best, it's a marginal improvement. Sky were no stronger in 2019 than they were in 2013-2015.

The overall level of the best climbers was quite stable from 2013 to 2019. Then a jump and gradual increase from 2019/2020 to 2023. Then a massive jump in July this year, maybe even bigger and more sudden than the jump in performances from EPO.

How plausible is it for better nutrition to cause almost a 10 % improvement in W/kg overnight? After several years where it has been used to explain away previous gains?
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Yes, plausible. Why couldn't there be a breakthrough in nutrition? Or certain people who thrive on X carbs per hour, while others can't handle it?
 
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Netserk

Netserk

Apr 30, 2011
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Bolder said:
Yes, plausible. Why couldn't there be a breakthrough in nutrition? Or certain people who thrive on X carbs per hour, while others can't handle it?
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Because it doesn't match the timeline of how the level of performances have evolved the least bit. Because the changes have been massive and sudden several years after they supposedly figured out how much carb to eat. Because every time we've previously seen so sudden and massive changes, it has been due to doping or very tangible and verifiable improvements in technology (like swim suits). We've seen nothing of the latter that comes even close to the changes in performances, and it has been visible over the years how changes in doping and anti-doping have affected performances.
 
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Froome

Froome

Jan 29, 2021
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Bolder said:
Yes, plausible. Why couldn't there be a breakthrough in nutrition? Or certain people who thrive on X carbs per hour, while others can't handle it?
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The peloton found better nutrition since the stage of plateau de beille.....because between january and that stage, there weren't a big increase in terms of power, or a gradual improvement of power.

Suddendly everybody improved a lot, like more than 5%, because they found a better nutrition after pla d'adet....

Only doping can explain something like this. Nutrition could explain something if the improvement was like 1%.
 
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Brullnux

Mar 31, 2015
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Bolder said:
Yes, plausible. Why couldn't there be a breakthrough in nutrition? Or certain people who thrive on X carbs per hour, while others can't handle it?
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I think there's little doubt that, all things being equal, riders should be going faster now than in the 90s, 00s, 10s. The issue is, as Netserk has pointed out, the context around the current riders' levels can't really be explained by training/nutrition/bike tech etc alone. The massive jump has been so recent, and now they're putting out numbers that compare to the 60% Hemocrit days.
 
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ingsve

ingsve

Mar 12, 2009
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Netserk said:
Because it doesn't match the timeline of how the level of performances have evolved the least bit. Because the changes have been massive and sudden several years after they supposedly figured out how much carb to eat. Because every time we've previously seen so sudden and massive changes, it has been due to doping or very tangible and verifiable improvements in technology (like swim suits). We've seen nothing of the latter that comes even close to the changes in performances, and it has been visible over the years how changes in doping and anti-doping have affected performances.
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Just to play devils advocate. Is there is chance the timeline can be explained by riders 5 years ago simply underperforming compared to where the evolution of the sport was at? Aging Sky riders still winning GTs despite declining performances and then in the past years a new generation or energetic and hungry riders take over that are performing at the actual top level of the sports capability.

I know I'm probably pissing in the wind but I so don't want to think we are still in a doping era regardless of what reason is telling me.
 
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E_F_

E_F_

Jul 16, 2024
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ingsve said:
Just to play devils advocate. Is there is chance the timeline can be explained by riders 5 years ago simply underperforming compared to where the evolution of the sport was at? Aging Sky riders still winning GTs despite declining performances and then in the past years a new generation or energetic and hungry riders take over that are performing at the actual top level of the sports capability.

I know I'm probably pissing in the wind but I so don't want to think we are still in a doping era regardless of what reason is telling me.
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I don't see why they would get hungrier and more energetic year after year...
 
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hulkgogan

Mar 18, 2009
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ingsve said:
If we just go by the basic claim made, has the way riders refuel before and especially during a race changed much in the past 20 years? Did they keep strict control over calorie targets each hour of racing or did rider go more by feel rather than planning back then? How has the food they eat changed? From recollection there were gels back then as well right or was it still the days of white bread and jam etc.? Or when did the gels enter the peloton? Has gels and the other stuff they eat changed much during this time?
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I raced Conti 25 years ago. For racing I'd do one gel an hour and have about 15 grams of carbs in my bottle. So about 45 g an hour. I'd say I was among the higher end among my teammates. Back then the concern was too many carbs, especially in the bottle, would cause cramps. However, the notion that if I doubled my intake I suddenly gain 50 watts is hilarious gaslighting. No fricking way.
 
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Netserk

Netserk

Apr 30, 2011
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ingsve said:
Just to play devils advocate. Is there is chance the timeline can be explained by riders 5 years ago simply underperforming compared to where the evolution of the sport was at? Aging Sky riders still winning GTs despite declining performances and then in the past years a new generation or energetic and hungry riders take over that are performing at the actual top level of the sports capability.

I know I'm probably pissing in the wind but I so don't want to think we are still in a doping era regardless of what reason is telling me.
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Geraint Thomas underperformed in 2018 relative to 2022? He got more energetic and hungry a couple of years after winning the Tour?

Sounds as plausible as Chris Horner winning the 2013 Vuelta clean.
 
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ingsve

ingsve

Mar 12, 2009
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Netserk said:
Geraint Thomas underperformed in 2018 relative to 2022? He got more energetic and hungry a couple of years after winning the Tour?

Sounds as plausible as Chris Horner winning the 2013 Vuelta clean.
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Ya, no that doesn't make sense. I don't know the numbers too well, I assumed the post 2020 numbers mentioned were all the new breed of younger riders compared to the Ineos crowd being before 2020.
 
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Sciatic

Mar 4, 2011
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Nick2413 said:
The funny thing is all the other endurance sports are leaning on cycling to explain away all their new records as well now (carbs, tech, professionalism…). And even funnier to use cycling as evidence of clean sport.
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There have been many times the number of doping busts in Athletics (including some record holders and medalists) than in cycling since the break in testing during the pandemic. So it’s not just the spring-y shoes.
 
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zlev11

zlev11

Jan 23, 2011
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Rob5091 said:
Close the Clinic! These faster speeds are all down to “recovery pajamas" and "smart mattresses" ...
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/road-training/pro-cyclings-pursuit-of-perfect-sleep/
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this all makes more sense to me than the nutrition stuff. im a terrible sleeper and the difference between a broken 6-7 hours and a full 8+ is massive. Lance always says he used to sleep 9 hours straight through the night every night during the Tour. if i could do that Ullrich might not be able to drop me either.
 
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SHAD0W93

SHAD0W93

Aug 13, 2011
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zlev11 said:
this all makes more sense to me than the nutrition stuff. im a terrible sleeper and the difference between a broken 6-7 hours and a full 8+ is massive. Lance always says he used to sleep 9 hours straight through the night every night during the Tour. if i could do that Ullrich might not be able to drop me either.
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Or could do this

syndication.bleacherreport.com

Josh McDaniels: Patriots Have Room Simulating 4-5 Hours of Sleep in 40 Minutes

If you've ever wondered how the New England Patriots always seem to be one step ahead of the curve, Josh McDaniels may have given us their cheat code...
syndication.bleacherreport.com
 
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