State of the Peloton 2024

[Ripper]

To me it's someone that can't really sprint but can keep a tempo pace up for hours and hours and hours.

Yes, generally a 'diesel' lacks that ability to really change tempo and have those quick accelerations, but they can go steady for long periods. I thought it was a little more related to slow and fast twitch fiber composition (a really fine detail, because even a sprinter on the road, like Cav, is much more an endurance athlete than a pure fast twitch machine).

Also, VO2 is not the end all and be all, but it is a ceiling and if it is too low, then even insane lactate clearance, etc., will not save you in an aerobic sport. IMO in modern cycling, if a man has a VO2 below 70, at race weight and in race condition, then they are not going to the WT.

Lots of athletes are FoS though and sometimes just guessing at numbers. Also, he might have been confusing his absolute numbers and his VO2 with consideration of his body weight.

 

[Monoxidator]

Yes, generally a 'diesel' lacks that ability to really change tempo and have those quick accelerations, but they can go steady for long periods. I thought it was a little more related to slow and fast twitch fiber composition (a really fine detail, because even a sprinter on the road, like Cav, is much more an endurance athlete than a pure fast twitch machine).

Also, VO2 is not the end all and be all, but it is a ceiling and if it is too low, then even insane lactate clearance, etc., will not save you in an aerobic sport. IMO in modern cycling, if a man has a VO2 below 70, at race weight and in race condition, then they are not going to the WT.

Lots of athletes are FoS though and sometimes just guessing at numbers. Also, he might have been confusing his absolute numbers and his VO2 with consideration of his body weight.

I think he says in the podcast that it was taken right after a grand tour or something like that and he was exhausted and flew in without any recovery. Not sure if that would affect it.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Also, VO2 is not the end all and be all, but it is a ceiling and if it is too low, then even insane lactate clearance, etc., will not save you in an aerobic sport. IMO in modern cycling, if a man has a VO2 below 70, at race weight and in race condition, then they are not going to the WT.

it's like a middle distance runner A, who has 2'50'' 1 km pace. No matter how efficient his metabolism is he won't have a chance against an elite long-distance runner B (whose threshold pace is as good as runner A's ceiling - VO2max pace).

Agree 61 would be super low but we need to be careful with VO2 max. VO2 max isn't the 'be all and end all'. All else being equal a higher VO2 max allows for greater sustained power output but you can still have a lowish VO2 max but a higher FTP and clear lactate faster.

A famous example was US Olympic marathon silver medalist in 1976 - Frank Shorter. Shorter's VO2 max was only about 70.

But it would be interesting to know the VO2 max of pro sprinters and domestiques.

I am also not sure how you define a diesel ? Cadel Evans was a diesel but he had a high VO2 max.

Shorter's example is interesting. Either he had an absurd efficiency at aerobic (super fat-burner) and anaerobic threshold (he also had some 10k success) or...VO2max measurements aren't always that reliable. I think I saw a chart of VO2max vs 10km and marathon runs for amateurs. While the correlation was obvious disproportions were big - some rather average VO2max guy could run 10km in 40 minutes while another (with better VO2max) needed almost an hour. Then again, those inconsistencies are more probable in case of amateurs, whose trainings/mileages (and lactate curves) can vary greatly. In case of pros, one should assume that they optimize their thresholds as much as possible.

As for sprinters: they aren't exactly the same sprinters as track & field obviously. They are still endurance athletes required to cover thousands of kilometers and big cols. Would VO2max of 65 be sufficient to survive mountain stages in the time limit? Maybe so, maybe not. Still, it varies: Philipsen should have a pretty high VO2max but Cippolini for example could have been in low 60s indeed.

 

[Red Rick]

Low 60s is probably like 5.2 W/kg at Vo2max.

Fresh, in a lab setting, presumably at sea level, that's a comical value.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Low 60s is probably like 5.2 W/kg at Vo2max.

Fresh, in a lab setting, presumably at sea level, that's a comical value.

Cippo didn't finish 20 GTs. It's an understatement that he hated mountains!

 

[Red Rick]

Cippo didn't finish 20 GTs. It's an understatement that he hated mountains!

With 60 you shouldn't be finishing any GTs and I suspect it would actually harm your sprint at the end of a fast leadout.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

With 60 you shouldn't be finishing any GTs and I suspect it would actually harm your sprint at the end of a fast leadout.

So maybe our guess should be upper 60s then for mountain-hating sprinters. Keep in mind that Cippo had a good mass so his absolute VO2max (which is maybe more important in flat terrain) wasn't that shitty.

 

[Red Rick]

So maybe our guess should be upper 60s then for mountain-hating sprinters. Keep in mind that Cippo had a good mass so his absolute VO2max (which is maybe more important in flat terrain) wasn't that shitty.

I always interpreted Cipo 'hating mountains' to be more about being lazy and not respecting the races as opposed to being literally Marezko level climber.

 

[Mayomaniac]

I always interpreted Cipo 'hating mountains' to be more about being lazy and not respecting the races as opposed to being literally Marezko level climber.

We're talking about a guy who was leading the peloton through the Forest of Arenberg when he rode Paris-Roubaix.
Plus, he still finished all those Giro editions, who usually had harder mountain stages.
The guy just couldn't be bothered to stay in the Tour after racking up first week wins and would rather spend his time at the beach, chasing women.

 

[SHAD0W93]

We're talking about a guy who was leading the peloton through the Forest of Arenberg when he rode Paris-Roubaix.
Plus, he still finished all those Giro editions, who usually had harder mountain stages.
The guy just couldn't be bothered to stay in the Tour after racking up first week wins and would rather spend his time at the beach, chasing women.

Cipo couldn’t bother to stay in the Giro either, 6 finishes and 8 DNFs, just probably did it since he’s Italian.

 

[Saint Unix]

(a really fine detail, because even a sprinter on the road, like Cav, is much more an endurance athlete than a pure fast twitch machine).

Total aside, but someone should put Iakovlev in the Tour for sh*ts and giggles.

 

[Ripper]

So maybe our guess should be upper 60s then for mountain-hating sprinters. Keep in mind that Cippo had a good mass so his absolute VO2max (which is maybe more important in flat terrain) wasn't that shitty.

I agree, also, there are known clinical reasons why Cippo could survive some stages.

But yes, enhanced or not he likely had a relatively high absolute value (thus being able to also cope with a leadout train) but a fairly low (for a pro) relative VO2, as he was by no means a slightly built dude. He was also very likely a little higher in the fast twitch department and burned a lot of glucose ... he most likely only had one really strong effort he could give. I think Kittel was a bit similar in that regard

 

[Nomad]

I've searched high & low for the VO2max of Cipollini, Petacchi & Zabel - nothing anywhere (you'd think with the availability of info today, there would something accessible). However, if those numbers were found, we'd have to figure out whether the stated VO2max is natural or a PED-influenced number.

Zabel completed the most GTs - having won a record 9 points classicifications in GTs (6 Tours & 3 Vueltas). And Zabel was of course part of Telekom's systematic EPO doping program.

Petacchi, like Cipollini, was another one that didn't finish GTs having DNF'd in 14. And he was souped up on 02-vector doping having been a member of Operation Aderlass.

"Super Mario" for someone that didn't like to climb & finish GTs, was a "super doper" seeming to have an addiction to 02-vector doping. Lol.

Report: Cipollini used 25 blood bags before 2003 Giro d'Italia | Cyclingnews.com

Gazzetta continues to detail alleged Fuentes doping programme

www.cyclingnews.com

 

[Sciatic]

I've searched high & low for the VO2max of Cipollini, Petacchi & Zabel - nothing anywhere (you'd think with the availability of info today, there would something accessible). However, if those numbers were found, we'd have to figure out whether the stated VO2max is natural or a PED-influenced number.

Zabel completed the most GTs - having won a record 9 points classicifications in GTs (6 Tours & 3 Vueltas). And Zabel was of course part of Telekom's systematic EPO doping program.

Petacchi, like Cipollini, was another one that didn't finish GTs having DNF'd in 14. And he was souped up on 02-vector doping having been a member of Operation Aderlass.

"Super Mario" for someone that didn't like to climb & finish GTs, was a "super doper" seeming to have an addiction to 02-vector doping. Lol.

Report: Cipollini used 25 blood bags before 2003 Giro d'Italia | Cyclingnews.com

Gazzetta continues to detail alleged Fuentes doping programme

www.cyclingnews.com

Thanks, I missed that Cippo article when it came out years ago. Interesting that it mentioned that his EPO injections totaled 13,000 units in the run-up to one of the races. That’s not much, considering therapeutic medical dosage is 40,000-60,000 units per weekly injection. But the “units” measure they cite might be different: a total of 130,000 units for Cippo would make more sense.

 

[Netserk]

Thanks, I missed that Cippo article when it came out years ago. Interesting that it mentioned that his EPO injections totaled 13,000 units in the run-up to one of the races. That’s not much, considering therapeutic medical dosage is 40,000-60,000 units per weekly injection. But the “units” measure they cite might be different: a total of 130,000 units for Cippo would make more sense.

No, I don't think that's a mistake. From testimonies I've read between 2,000 and 5,000 units per day[EDIT: maybe every other day?]. More often the former.

And that was before microdosing, afaik. When done intravenously, I think the dosage used to be between 500 and 1,000 units.

 

[Sciatic]

No, I don't think that's a mistake. From testimonies I've read between 2,000 and 5,000 units per day[EDIT: maybe every other day?]. More often the former.

And that was before microdosing, afaik. When done intravenously, I think the dosage used to be between 500 and 1,000 units.

Thanks, I hadn’t considered the difference in dosing b/t the two but it makes sense because there is much higher (and quicker) absorption via IV than subcutaneous.

 

[Rob5091]

I remember the days of the Sky train and everyone wondering what the heck Froome and the other guys were on. Now the numbers show that Froome might be a joke to some, but he's probably putting out the same numbers as before. I want people to stop and think about that.

https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...have-destroyed-the-froome-era-team-sky-train/

Gee did 5.8w/kg for 45:58 on the Plateaus de Beille, finishing six minutes and 28 seconds behind Pogačar. Simply put, peak Froome would’ve lost 4-5 minutes to Pogačar — it’s not even close.

Based on the incredible power and speed of the modern peloton, it’s easy to say that any rider in the Top 20 of this year’s Tour de France could have fought for the podium 10 years ago. As for this year’s podium — Pogačar, Jonas Vingegaard, and Remco Evenepoel — the data suggest that they would’ve destroyed the Team Sky train of the 2010s.

Speaking to the best-ever numbers that Team Sky claimed Chris Froome produced in training (~6.7w/kg for 40 minutes), Pogačar and Vingegaard easily outperformed that on Stage 15 of this year’s Tour. Instead of a low-stress training effort, this duo produced ~7w/kg and ~6.8w/kg, respectively, for 40 minutes on the Plateau de Beille after burning >4,000 kJs at the end of the second week of the Tour de France.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I remember the days of the Sky train and everyone wondering what the heck Froome and the other guys were on. Now the numbers show that Froome might be a joke to some, but he's probably putting out the same numbers as before. I want people to stop and think about that.

https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...have-destroyed-the-froome-era-team-sky-train/

If Pogacar or Vingegaard showed up to any of those 2012-2019 Tours, Sky would have gotten f’ed up. They’d probably lose 2012 in a beatdown as well.

 

[Cookster15]

I remember the days of the Sky train and everyone wondering what the heck Froome and the other guys were on. Now the numbers show that Froome might be a joke to some, but he's probably putting out the same numbers as before. I want people to stop and think about that.

https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...have-destroyed-the-froome-era-team-sky-train/

Yep. I think Pantani’s Alpe D’Huez record is in jeopardy if they include it in the Tour next year. Pog’s 3 minute demolition of Marco’s ‘98 PdB record is proof. Sub 35 minutes ?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

If Pogacar or Vingegaard showed up to any of those 2012-2019 Tours, Sky would have gotten f’ed up. They’d probably lose 2012 in a beatdown as well.

They would have lost 2012 big time because Sir Bradley Wiggins didn't like crazy accelerations. Can you imagine him matching Pogacar and Vingegaard during their attacks? Come on, it would be a demolition. All other things being equal (clinic) Froome from 2013 would have the biggest chance against the current mutants but it's hard to perform such simulations.

 

[SHAD0W93]

They would have lost 2012 big time because Sir Bradley Wiggins didn't like crazy accelerations. Can you imagine him matching Pogacar and Vingegaard during their attacks? Come on, it would be a demolition. All other things being equal (clinic) Froome from 2013 would have the biggest chance against the current mutants but it's hard to perform such simulations.

2012 was the best course for Wiggins who had a stacked team. Froome would get demolished on the 2013 course.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

2012 was the best course for Wiggins who had a stacked team. Froome would get demolished on the 2013 course.

I forgot how easy 2012 route actually was. As for Froome in 2013 he was very strong that year (except small lapse in Annecy-Semnoz stage) so the outcome is not that obvious to me (keep in mind that the modern mutants would have lower-quality fuel then). As for 2015, 2016 and 2017 Froome would be at a big disadvantage against our heroes.

 

[Ripper]

I remember when 7 w/kg was thought of as definitive proof someone was radioactive, and this was a fairly broad opinion in cycling. Basically, since Covid (and I know that the timing has been discussed plenty), this has shifted to the point where now we are hitting those levels and not one person at a high level is openly questioning anything. I get a lot of the "why", but it is nevertheless pretty interesting to see happen. I could totally see the AdH record get obliterated and people would just be applauding and circle jerking over it. Basically, we have moved from a ridiculous single performance, to a ridiculous race, to a ridiculous season.

And then there's always swimming!

 

[Krzysztof_O]

And then there's always swimming!

Has accelerated human evolution affected swimmers as well? Interesting, it must be COVID related indeed.

 

[Saint Unix]

They would have lost 2012 big time because Sir Bradley Wiggins didn't like crazy accelerations. Can you imagine him matching Pogacar and Vingegaard during their attacks? Come on, it would be a demolition. All other things being equal (clinic) Froome from 2013 would have the biggest chance against the current mutants but it's hard to perform such simulations.

There's a chance Dawg finishes ahead of Wiggins in 2012 if current Pog or Vingegaard are in the race. After all, Froome was doing all those weird little accelerations on the climbs to show the world he was the stronger climber. If Pog or JV ride off on their own, he probably follows and leaves Wiggo behind. No way he wins the race though.