State of the Peloton 2024

[armchairclimber]

I put this in the wrong thread yesterday.

Re. Maurten's Bicarb system. I know it was discussed on here last year. I've just been chatting with someone who is involved with the 800m at the olympics this year. I asked if he knew what was behind ths recent improvement in times ... (ie, several athletes inside 1:42 in one race last week). He said that it could largely be down to the more widespread use of Maurtens Bicarb system. He said it takes a while to dial in the dosage, but that it reall does seem to have a substantial benefit.... even in such a short race. Keely H has been on it for 2 years.
Clearly I don't believe the improvements in cycling can be solely down to that ... or bicarb plus ketones and improved nutrition etc.

But interesting to me that it is kind of accepted practice in certain T&F events now.

 

[Nick2413]

I want to know if the doctors and nurses in the Basque hospital Jonas went to saw a bunch of abnormal values when he showed up. It seems it would take a HCT of 70 for WADA to be able to do anything at this point. Is all this stuff really undetectable or just covered up by huge tolerance thresholds?

 

[E_F_]

I want to know if the doctors and nurses in the Basque hospital Jonas went to saw a bunch of abnormal values when he showed up. It seems it would take a HCT of 70 for WADA to be able to do anything at this point. Is all this stuff really undetectable or just covered up by huge tolerance thresholds?

Outside of ridiculous blood values, I'd say it's undetectable, and I can't bring myself to believe the UCI haven't seen a lot dodgy results there, which they then haven't penalised.

 

[Nick2413]

I’d honestly prefer motors because in theory it would be easier to detect and control if they actually took it seriously. Substances are way more uncontrollable.

 

[Nomad]

Yeah ... this is what starts the slippery slope of "everyone's a doper" ... Really though it's probably 3 teams and within those teams maybe 20-30 people total that are the biggest culprits.

So, you don't think there's widespread doping (with whatever PEDs, compounds, methods, etc) among all of the top GC guys?

I don't know if you've seen this crazy stat from the 7-year LA dynasty period: 87% of the top-10 finishers (61 of 70) were confirmed dopers or suspected of doping.

Weiterleitungshinweis

That's sobering - I honestly didn't think it was that high. And they all would be using the same PEDs & methods of that time period (EPO, transfusions, GH, testosterone, etc). No one rider or team would have anything special or revolutionary that the other teams wouldn't have known about & made sure they also had access to it.

Also, Riis had said that during the Wild West of the 90s, EPO use was the normal preparation of a professional cyclist. So, again, everyone would have had knowledge of, and access to the revolutionary use of EPO that flipped the cycling world upside down.

Question: If it's restricted to only 3 teams & few dozen riders like you say, is it because the other teams/riders don't have knowledge of or access to what those 3 teams are using?

 

[repoman]

I put this in the wrong thread yesterday.

Re. Maurten's Bicarb system. I know it was discussed on here last year. I've just been chatting with someone who is involved with the 800m at the olympics this year. I asked if he knew what was behind ths recent improvement in times ... (ie, several athletes inside 1:42 in one race last week). He said that it could largely be down to the more widespread use of Maurtens Bicarb system. He said it takes a while to dial in the dosage, but that it reall does seem to have a substantial benefit.... even in such a short race. Keely H has been on it for 2 years.
Clearly I don't believe the improvements in cycling can be solely down to that ... or bicarb plus ketones and improved nutrition etc.

But interesting to me that it is kind of accepted practice in certain T&F events now.

Maurten is the scammiest of scam endurance products. Or at least the most 'marketing engineered.' Sodium Bicarbonate benefits have been known for over 50 years. Maurten just does a bunch of marketing and sells $0.02 worth of baking soda to idiots for $80 dollars.
Beta Alanine has similar significant benefits for short term power. One makes you feel really itchy, the other makes you *** your pants.

 

[Monoxidator]

So, you don't think there's widespread doping (with whatever PEDs, compounds, methods, etc) among all of the top GC guys?

I don't know if you've seen this crazy stat from the 7-year LA dynasty period: 87% of the top-10 finishers (61 of 70) were confirmed dopers or suspected of doping.

Weiterleitungshinweis

That's sobering - I honestly didn't think it was that high. And they all would be using the same PEDs & methods of that time period (EPO, transfusions, GH, testosterone, etc). No one rider or team would have anything special or revolutionary that the other teams wouldn't have known about & made sure they also had access to it.

Also, Riis had said that during the Wild West of the 90s, EPO use was the normal preparation of a professional cyclist. So, again, everyone would have had knowledge of, and access to the revolutionary use of EPO that flipped the cycling world upside down.

Question: If it's restricted to only 3 teams & few dozen riders like you say, is it because the other teams/riders don't have knowledge of or access to what those 3 teams are using?

I would hope not ... the new stuff has really started hitting the last 4 years, whereas with Lance's era it had been at least 10-15 years of EPO getting spread throughout the peloton. So it's not as widespread as it was then. I think it's pretty easy to tell who they are.

If you want to look at numbers, there's thousands or tens of thousands of cyclists (maybe more I don't know) who are physiologically capable of 5 watts per kilo for sustained efforts. Then you get to 5.5 there's maybe a few hundred. 6, maybe a few dozen, 6.2-6.5 just a couple. But then suddenly several are capable of 6.8, and one who's capable of 7.2 ... or more since we didn't really see him sweat or breathe hard at all during the whole tour. I wonder what he could do if he actually went deep. Maybe 7.5? more?

 

[QueenStagiaire]

So, you don't think there's widespread doping (with whatever PEDs, compounds, methods, etc) among all of the top GC guys?

I don't know if you've seen this crazy stat from the 7-year LA dynasty period: 87% of the top-10 finishers (61 of 70) were confirmed dopers or suspected of doping.

Weiterleitungshinweis

Well, it‘s actually quite impressive to not be suspected of doping at that time if you were up there.

 

[TrekCyclist]

As I understand, Carbon Monoxide rebreathing is (currently) not classified as Doping.
So can it be discussed in the main forum? Or only within the Clinic?

 

[Rob5091]

As I understand, Carbon Monoxide rebreathing is (currently) not classified as Doping.
So can it be discussed in the main forum? Or only within the Clinic?

I'd say stick to the Clinic as it's bound to lead to other things.

 

[armchairclimber]

Maurten is the scammiest of scam endurance products. Or at least the most 'marketing engineered.' Sodium Bicarbonate benefits have been known for over 50 years. Maurten just does a bunch of marketing and sells $0.02 worth of baking soda to idiots for $80 dollars.
Beta Alanine has similar significant benefits for short term power. One makes you feel really itchy, the other makes you *** your pants.

Well, what I learned this week was that the Maurten system works... but the athlete has to experiment for a while to find the mixture that works for them personally .. and doesn't make them bab their pants. As it happens, the athlete I know does have gastric issues with it. But two others he is close to have figured their regime and it has brought significant benefits.
I know, as a coach, that bi carb has been touted as a way to combat acidosis for a long time ... but that the side efects were too unpleasant/inconvenient. I have no reason to doubt what I have been told this week.
Of course, if it helps shave 2 secs off your time for 800m, it shifts you from semi finalist to finalist, potentially.

 

[peterfin]

I would hope not ... the new stuff has really started hitting the last 4 years, whereas with Lance's era it had been at least 10-15 years of EPO getting spread throughout the peloton. So it's not as widespread as it was then. I think it's pretty easy to tell who they are.

If you want to look at numbers, there's thousands or tens of thousands of cyclists (maybe more I don't know) who are physiologically capable of 5 watts per kilo for sustained efforts. Then you get to 5.5 there's maybe a few hundred. 6, maybe a few dozen, 6.2-6.5 just a couple. But then suddenly several are capable of 6.8, and one who's capable of 7.2 ... or more since we didn't really see him sweat or breathe hard at all during the whole tour. I wonder what he could do if he actually went deep. Maybe 7.5? more?

As Taleb would say: the distribution has fat tails such as all social systems. Physiological performance should be close to a normal distribution if left alone but it's not what we experience. Outperformers are 'enhanced' more than others as their 'value' increases non-linearly. They are worth the investment. The question is if it is done within legal boundaries or not.

 

[Monoxidator]

Watt Police podcast with a twitter doctor who has some insights. There's a several new drug sthat can be orally taken that has the same effects as EPO. (vadadustat, daprodustat, roxadustat) and one US-branded compound has a half-life of only 1-4 hours.

He speculates that there are no simple ways to detect it in a blood samples and it's unlikely that anti-doping agencies are testing for them yet. He says there are certain modified forms of EPO that are still not able to be tested for.

Next he talks about new drugs that improve heart muscle contraction power without increasing oxygen consumption that are in a more experimental phase ... Cyclists with sudden unexplicable heart failures anyone???

Finally talks about CO therapy

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm6nEPP-F4Y

 

[repoman]

As I understand, Carbon Monoxide rebreathing is (currently) not classified as Doping.
So can it be discussed in the main forum? Or only within the Clinic?

I think it would fall under the 'unnatural blood value tampering' part.

 

[E_F_]

Next he talks about new drugs that improve heart muscle contraction power without increasing oxygen consumption that are in a more experimental phase ... Cyclists with sudden unexplicable heart failures anyone???

lmaoooo. It's sad and disgusting, tbh.

 

[Monoxidator]

lmaoooo. It's sad and disgusting, tbh.

This is the type of drug that theoretically could transform someone's performance very quickly (over night basically)

 

[Nomad]

Watt Police podcast with a twitter doctor who has some insights. There's a several new drug sthat can be orally taken that has the same effects as EPO. (vadadustat, daprodustat, roxadustat) and one US-branded compound has a half-life of only 1-4 hours.

He speculates that there are no simple ways to detect it in a blood samples and it's unlikely that anti-doping agencies are testing for them yet. He says there are certain modified forms of EPO that are still not able to be tested for.

Next he talks about new drugs that improve heart muscle contraction power without increasing oxygen consumption that are in a more experimental phase ... Cyclists with sudden unexplicable heart failures anyone???

Finally talks about CO therapy

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm6nEPP-F4Y

Roxadustat (FG-4592), Vadadustat, Daprodustat, etc are all hypoxia inducible factors (HIF) that WADA has testing assays for (is he talking about designer HIFs where there would be no test?).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/290624398_Detection_by_LC-MSMS_of_HIF_stabilizer_FG-4592_used_as_a_new_doping_agent_Investigation_on_a_positive_case

According to the literature, Roxadustat has a detection window of up to 167 hrs - about 1 week after last dose (normal use). On the ABP, normal use will push hematological values up to - but not exceed - upper threshold limits (however, that's enough suspicion to warrant target testing I would think).

Before Roxadustat was even approved by the FDA for clinical use, dopers were getting their hands on it & a few cyclists tested positive:

A Drug Hits Cycling Before It Hits the Market (Published 2015)

FG-4592, which increases production of red blood cells, is not approved for human consumption but nonetheless has led to two positive tests just this month.

www.nytimes.com

A top tennis star even tested positive for it a couple of years ago:

Former world No. 1 tennis star Halep provisionally suspended for doping

Two-times major winner Simona Halep of Romania has been provisionally suspended after testing positive for the banned substance roxadustat, the International Tennis Integrity Agency (ITIA) said on Friday.

www.france24.com

 

[zlev11]

yeah that guy they had on is a quack that doesn't know ***. i think it's more likely that was the stuff Froome/Sky were pioneering back in the day than what the current generation is using.

 

[houtdffan]

I’d honestly prefer motors because in theory it would be easier to detect and control if they actually took it seriously. Substances are way more uncontrollable.

Motors fundamentally alter the sport. Makes it more akin to a rally version of moto gp than cycling

 

[cnort]

David Walsh gave a long radio interview last night (https://link.goloudplayer.com/s/pGpuxZe5v6iZ - free to register and listen). It was a remarkable exercise in fanboyism for Pogacar and Vingegaard. He has clearly moved on from Froome. He no longer addresses doping at all. I lost interest in his writing after he got in the Sky camp, but this is almost weird. To go after Armstrong so doggedly and now not even mention doping. I presume he's given up on it but I wonder are the Tour and other race organisers running their own blacklisting system, just as Armstrong did. Or maybe just his editor has told him to back off.

 

[zlev11]

so Guillaume Martin said his Look bike is 1 full kilogram over the weight limit. can we please put an end to the "the bikes are better" excuse? Pantani's bike in 1998 was right at the weight limit. i'm sure Look isn't the only bike running heavy, the disc brakes add a substantial amount of rotational weight.

 

[noob]

Watt Police podcast with a twitter doctor who has some insights. There's a several new drug sthat can be orally taken that has the same effects as EPO. (vadadustat, daprodustat, roxadustat) and one US-branded compound has a half-life of only 1-4 hours.

He speculates that there are no simple ways to detect it in a blood samples and it's unlikely that anti-doping agencies are testing for them yet. He says there are certain modified forms of EPO that are still not able to be tested for.

Next he talks about new drugs that improve heart muscle contraction power without increasing oxygen consumption that are in a more experimental phase ... Cyclists with sudden unexplicable heart failures anyone???

Finally talks about CO therapy

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm6nEPP-F4Y

This was so fun! Even his morals are like mine! He thinks they might as well do epo as altitude training, as the effect is the same anyway. Neither of them is really about sport it's just about money.

This is like my kind of pr0n 🤩🤫 Completely all-over the place and no filter whatsoever 😍🤩🥰

 

[ppanther92]

Who does not say that at the moment seems to be the question for me.

True but simply looking at the times of a Bardet, Bernal, Carapaz its actually true. Yet they are nowhere in GC.

My prediction, therefore, is - next year will be the peak. Visma and Vingegaard revanche will lead to again faster times. Because come on, if Vingegaard can perform like this with being in ICU 2 months before the Tour, I have bo doubt he can more that challenge Pogacar. And the later will know that.

But since it seems indeed be a gap by some teams, I expect quite some pressure after this.

Unless its really “only” Carbon Monoxide (this investigative report nailed the teams that did well pretty perfectly with simply listing the teams that own such a device (UAE, Visma, Soudal, Israel). Anyway, in the ARD podcast a doping expert said this can be banned but there will be never a test for it, so you would have to catch riders in the act of using it.

 

[Netserk]

As I understand, Carbon Monoxide rebreathing is (currently) not classified as Doping.
So can it be discussed in the main forum? Or only within the Clinic?

The haemoglobin measurement that they openly confess to use is not doping. When used as a hypoxia-inducible factor activating agent (S2.1.2), then it's banned just like xenon and cobalt are. The prohibited list doesn't have to name the substance for it to be banned ("Including, but not limited to:").

 

[fbjim]

so Guillaume Martin said his Look bike is 1 full kilogram over the weight limit. can we please put an end to the "the bikes are better" excuse? Pantani's bike in 1998 was right at the weight limit. i'm sure Look isn't the only bike running heavy, the disc brakes add a substantial amount of rotational weight.

pantani's bike was a bianchi which was full of ciclismo and passione. note that g-mart's decline started when Cofidis switched from De Rosa to Look. think the data nerds are ignoring this one