Steffen Kjaergaard - the naive and innocent Norwegian? ;)

[ToreBear]

The president of the Norwegian Cycling Federation should resign ASAP.

Why should he do that?

 

[ToreBear]

Just to make a distinction. The Tulip Computers cycling team started in 1991, and was a hugely different set-up to the ADR-IOC-Tulip team of 1990. In 1990 the riders were not being paid full salary (neither were staff) and pressures were very high within the team. (I witnessed riders coming to blows in change-rooms; riders selling races; bikes and equipment going 'missing'...) The team as such had no official doctor, however some riders chose to stay under the 'care' of Van Mol (Doctor from the 1989 ADR team). The soigneurs were the 'everyday' contact for riders, and yes, Bo-Andre is correct in saying that some of these staff-members were less than scrupulous when it came to 'preparations'.

Could it be that he is remembering wrong and the event he remembers was in 1991 and not 1990?

 

[esafosfina]

Could it be that he is remembering wrong and the event he remembers was in 1991 and not 1990?

Hi ToreBear... he's remembering the year correctly as being 1990. Unfortunately neither Torjus nor Bo got a contract with the 1991 Tulip team.

 

[neineinei]

Lars Kristian Johnsen, a pro together with Kjærgaard, hints a little bit more in the direction of Kim Andersen:

http://www.google.com/translate?lan...aftenposten.no/sport/sykkel/article255026.ece

Johnsen says something very important, that he had the choice to go back home, start studying and get a good job and good life. Cycling wasn't his only option. He also says he too was tempted to dope.

 

[torkil]

Why should he do that?

Because he:
A) Still supports McQuaid, the guy who ACTIVELY worked against the Armstrong investigation and critical journalists
B) Has been the president while two of his sport leaders have been actively hiding information about doping in cycling
C) Does not want to prosecute Kjærgaard or others who have actively lied to him
D) Tries to suppress an honest discussion on how big the doping problem is in cycling

One of these points is enough for me.

 

[pmcg76]

Just to make a distinction. The Tulip Computers cycling team started in 1991, and was a hugely different set-up to the ADR-IOC-Tulip team of 1990. In 1990 the riders were not being paid full salary (neither were staff) and pressures were very high within the team. (I witnessed riders coming to blows in change-rooms; riders selling races; bikes and equipment going 'missing'...) The team as such had no official doctor, however some riders chose to stay under the 'care' of Van Mol (Doctor from the 1989 ADR team). The soigneurs were the 'everyday' contact for riders, and yes, Bo-Andre is correct in saying that some of these staff-members were less than scrupulous when it came to 'preparations'.

I think Joe Parkin mentioned that Eric Rijkaert(of Festina infamy) was also working with the team or was that from 91.

On an unrelated matter and considering you were a pro at the time, what was the word on the Helvetia team of Koechli as he was considered an advocate of clean cycling and his team were perceived as being clean.

 

[ToreBear]

Hi ToreBear... he's remembering the year correctly as being 1990. Unfortunately neither Torjus nor Bo got a contract with the 1991 Tulip team.

Thanks! Being offered EPO in 1990 is the earliest I'we yet to hear.

 

[skimazk]

In 1988, the first rider was banned for using EPO.[91]

The increased thickness of the blood (above 70% red blood cells) increases the risk of blood clotting which can block blood vessels causing a heart attack or stroke, especially in the middle of the night when the heart's rate is lowest. Doctors and blood specialists concluded that the drug could have been implicated in the deaths of as many as 18 European professional bicycle racers between 1987 and 1991.

 

[esafosfina]

I think Joe Parkin mentioned that Eric Rijkaert(of Festina infamy) was also working with the team or was that from 91.

On an unrelated matter and considering you were a pro at the time, what was the word on the Helvetia team of Koechli as he was considered an advocate of clean cycling and his team were perceived as being clean.

Rijkaert was a 'consultant doctor' at that time, Joe's correct. There was also another doctor that was based just outside Gent; I can't remember his name.

Helvetia were, on the whole, considered a very good and progressive team and one that wouldn't tolerate doping. I met Koechli on a few occasions and in fact nearly signed for him after the 1988 Olympics. He was/is an extremely intelligent man and brought that intellect to his teams. I was good mates with Michael Wilson (Aussie pro) and Mike always said that working under Koechli was the best of times.

 

[esafosfina]

Thanks! Being offered EPO in 1990 is the earliest I'we yet to hear.

I'm almost certain it was available in 1989 (and probably 1988) as I do recall overhearing conversations when I was with the 89 ADR team. I couldn't say one way or the other if anyone was using EPO in 89, but it was certainly talked about.

 

[ToreBear]

Because he:
A) Still supports McQuaid, the guy who ACTIVELY worked against the Armstrong investigation and critical journalists
B) Has been the president while two of his sport leaders have been actively hiding information about doping in cycling
C) Does not want to prosecute Kjærgaard or others who have actively lied to him
D) Tries to suppress an honest discussion on how big the doping problem is in cycling

One of these points is enough for me.

a) Saying you think he has done some good work is not the same as actively supporting someone, when it matters. Saying McQaid should go in public is something only the biggest federations could do. Not the smaller ones. What he says behind closed doors might be completely different. That is the way politics work.

b) He became President 5 years ago, Kjærgaard was hired 6 years ago.

c) You don't know whether he wants to prosecute or not, that is something that will be decided within an institutional process. If he said he would prosecute before any of these processes are complete, then the President should be fired. Now he is doing his job.

d) When Falk speaks now, his words represent the whole organization. Before he was hired, it was none of the Presidents business. Now Falk has to follow the process within the organization. These are realities in any organization.

Again, I think the President is correct.

 

[pmcg76]

Rijkaert was a 'consultant doctor' at that time, Joe's correct. There was also another doctor that was based just outside Gent; I can't remember his name.

Helvetia were, on the whole, considered a very good and progressive team and one that wouldn't tolerate doping. I met Koechli on a few occasions and in fact nearly signed for him after the 1988 Olympics. He was/is an extremely intelligent man and brought that intellect to his teams. I was good mates with Michael Wilson (Aussie pro) and Mike always said that working under Koechli was the best of times.

Thanks for the response, its just that we hear so many former riders claim it was impossible to compete with dopers even pre EPO, but you then look at the results of Koechli's teams and realise they had some fantastic results riding cleanly.

It also rubbishes the myth that everyone was doping all the time.

 

[ToreBear]

I'm almost certain it was available in 1989 (and probably 1988) as I do recall overhearing conversations when I was with the 89 ADR team. I couldn't say one way or the other if anyone was using EPO in 89, but it was certainly talked about.

Thanks! Again, very interesting.

 

[Knutsen]

Hi ToreBear... he's remembering the year correctly as being 1990. Unfortunately neither Torjus nor Bo got a contract with the 1991 Tulip team.

You was there so you would know, but from this it seem like both went on with Tulip Computers:
http://www.cyclingarchives.com/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=19663
http://www.cyclingarchives.com/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=12445

Torjus Larsen actually says in the same interview 1989 or 1990 for when he first was offered EPO. Not from the doc, but from a soigneur. He quit as a pro in 1990.

 

[Knutsen]

You was there so you would know, but from this it seem like both went on with Tulip Computers:
http://www.cyclingarchives.com/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=19663
http://www.cyclingarchives.com/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=12445

Torjus Larsen actually says in the same interview 1989 or 1990 for when he first was offered EPO. Not from the doc, but from a soigneur. He quit as a pro in 1990.

My bad, I'm mixing Tulip Computers and IOC-Tulip:
http://www.cyclingarchives.com/ploegfiche.php?id=8353
http://www.cyclingarchives.com/ploegfiche.php?id=8117

 

[Avoriaz]

Some good sections about Koechli in the book "SLaying the Badger"

 

[workingclasshero]

a) Saying you think he has done some good work is not the same as actively supporting someone, when it matters. Saying McQaid should go in public is something only the biggest federations could do. Not the smaller ones. What he says behind closed doors might be completely different. That is the way politics work.

Again, I think the President is correct.

he does go out of his way to praise McQuaid's antidoping work ffs. The way politics work for el presidente is he tries to position himself to get into the UCI himself.

he's shown his cards and it turns out he is a powermad liability

 

[ToreBear]

he does go out of his way to praise McQuaid's antidoping work ffs. The way politics work for el presidente is he tries to position himself to get into the UCI himself.

he's shown his cards and it turns out he is a powermad liability

On the press conferance he did. But Norwegian Anti Doping, said there was a before and after 2007. I'm pretty sure Pat has made great improvements. Or rather the UCI have.

You praise good efforts. I did not see him going out of his way to defend the UCI on last nights TV debate.

For a small federation like the Norwegian one to take too strong a public stance could have negative consequences for Norwegian cycling. It's better to find an ally and support them behind the scenes.

The dutch federation for example has come out strongly:
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...CI-implements-urgent-action-plus-reforms.aspx

 

[The Death Merchant]

nationality blinds people from doping in their own country

Yeah, but it all goes to show that the norwegian press is really powerful. If he was doped, then Bjoern Daehli, basicly the biggest norwegian hero ever (he is on the level of war heroes and Fridtjof Nansen), was probably also doped. However, like Kjaergaard, Koss just doesn't have the same charisma, which somehow gives him less credibility.

I was born in 92, so I really can't have a strong opinion around what happened in 92/94/98, but it is obviously suspicious that norwegians seemed unbeatable in winter sports around this time. It is either superior training or...

Bjørn Dæhlie was doped like all of his rivals. Anyone who's claiming that the Norwegians didn't use EPO (a perfect drug that was impossible to detect and which usage was the norm) in the 90's, when all the others did, is seriously delusional. The late Mika Myllylä, Dæhlie's big rival at the time of 1994 and 1998 Olympics, admitted EPO usage in the 90's and even he lost to Dæhlie many times. And Myllylä was not some average schmuck but a real talent and a hard worker. So even a highly talented hard worker juiced with EPO couldn't beat Bjørn Dæhlie. And the financial benefits are surely there as Dæhlie has made some serious money with his success.

This is how incredibly superhuman the Norwegian skiers were. Norwegian cross country team won the medley in the 1998 Olympics, ahead of Italy and Finland, both of which had their skiers filled with EPO at the time. And the Norwegians are still ridiculously claiming that their skiers were doing it clean in the EPO-filled 90's...*shakes head* Believing Norwegians their nation of 5 millions were/is producing the most genetically advanced superhumans in the world for year in year out! Oh dear...How naive and blind can one be.

It sad that Norway still chooses to live in a lie. Still after Pharmstrong and all that has come out of the EPO filled 90's. Norway is the only Nordic country, no...slash that, the only cross country skiing country, that still believes they were clean in the 90's. I'm seriously wondering if the doping usage in Norway was/is totally systematic, somehow sanctioned or tolerated by their anti-doping authorities. Knowing that the very suspicious Inggard Lereim (he also monitored the blood values of skiers through 80's and 90's claimed that no Nordic skier ever used EPO in the 90's, which was just utter BS) has been part of both Norwegian anti-doping and FIS's doping control, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Norwegians have been advised by him and warned beforehand of possible testing.

 

[workingclasshero]

For a small federation like the Norwegian one to take too strong a public stance could have negative consequences for Norwegian cycling. It's better to find an ally and support them behind the scenes.

why? El presidente wants to deliver the world champs to norway, if he does and then pulls off a good week it will mean he edges closer to the big time internationally himself. But except for those world champs, what's Norway or any country got to win from not voicing their opinion? I really don't get it, Norway is small so Norway should support the bullies?

The dutch federation for example has come out strongly:

if even the pot smokers are unhappy about their own man's puppet, then he really needs to be effed off. McQuaid out.

 

[markene2]

Related to Norwegian cycling, but i did not want to make another thread for it, so i will post it here. I transelated it the most important parts manualy.

Former pro cyclist Dag Erik Pedersen cannot guarantee that he was dope free in his career.

“I could not be certain on what injections I got” Says Pedersen about the daily injections he got when he was riding in Italy in the begging 80’s.

Already in 2008 he was interviewed in a radio show where he told about the daily injections with unknown substances. He says he received minerals, salt and glycogen. But he is not 100% certain. He also said “Injections was a part of my daily life.”

Last night VG asked Pedersen some questions about the injections he got in his career.

VG: “Can you be 100% certain that you received no illegal substances? If yes, how can you be sure, if no what are your thoughts about that today?”

DEP: “I could not be sure, but I never had any reasons to doubt what Dottor Modesti (Eddy Merckx former doctor) gave us. Bianchi Piaggio never had any doping scandal in Italy when I was there, remember this was 13 years before EPO.”

VG: “In what period in your career did you receive these injections and what doctors gave it to you?”

DEP: “Mainly in my years in Italy.”

Source : http://www.vg.no/sport/sykkel/artikkel.php?artid=10062552

You can transelate the other parts with Google Translate if you want to.

 

[LouieLouie]

The Norwegian Union is taking action following Kjærgaards doping confession:

Former dopers are banned from positions in the Norwegian Cycling Union, as well as from management positions with Norwegian cycling teams. All athletes must attend a course offered by the Norwegian Anti Doping Authority and sign an anti-doping contract. All medical staff used by the team and it's riders must be registered with the Cycling Union.

http://www.procycling.no/article3504791.ece

Moreover, the Norwegian Union sent the UCI a letter a few days ago, supporting the Danish request to have mr. Verdruggen removed from the UCI.

 

[torkil]

The Norwegian Union is taking action following Kjærgaards doping confession:

Former dopers are banned from positions in the Norwegian Cycling Union, as well as from management positions with Norwegian cycling teams. All athletes must attend a course offered by the Norwegian Anti Doping Authority and sign an anti-doping contract. All medical staff used by the team and it's riders must be registered with the Cycling Union.

http://www.procycling.no/article3504791.ece

Moreover, the Norwegian Union sent the UCI a letter a few days ago, supporting the Danish request to have mr. Verdruggen removed from the UCI.

This twitter conversation including the norwegian union president(@htiedemand), the sponsorship guru Jacob Lund(@sponsorconsult) and Mads Kaggestad(@MadsKaggestad) was quite interesting, so I translated it for you guys.
It all started with this tweet:
Mads Kaggestad:
Very good! "@sponsocrconsult #sykkeldop #NcF wants to remove Hein Verbruggen from the honorary list of the union.

( https://twitter.com/Mads_Kaggestad/status/263721580331429888 )

Me:
@Mads_Kaggestad @sponsorconsult did #ncf change its mind on McQuaid?

Jacob Lund:
@torkil @Mads_Kaggestad They don't want to attack him now!

Jacob Lund:
@torkil @arbeidsbuksa_no @Mads_Kaggestad @htiedemann Good start with Hein Verbruggen

Norodd Johansen:
@sponsorconsult Definately a good start, but cant see any reason for the enthusiasm about McQuaid @torkil @Mads_Kaggestad @htiedemann

Jacob Lund
@arbeidsbuksa_no @torkil @Mads_Kaggestad @htiedemann I also think he has switched opinions too late

Mads Kaggestad
@arbeidsbuksa_no @sponsorconsult @torkil @htiedemann Dont forget that NCF wants the Worlds to Bergen...

Torkil
@MadsKaggestad @sponsorconsult I think we should delay our application

Jacob Lund
@torkil @Mads_Kaggestad @arbeidsbuksa_no @htiedemann A lot of cleaning up can be done in five years, today (the Worlds) wouldn't get a single norwegian sponsor

Norodd Johansen
@Mads_Kaggestad So you think (the Worlds) is more important than a working organization?

Jacob Lund
@arbeidsbuksa_no @Mads_Kaggestad @torkil @htiedemann @PLnning This time around I dont think the light in the tunnel isn't a train

Mads Kaggestad
@arbeidsbuksa_no @sponsorconsult @torkil @htiedemann I think it is a mix of trust and fear for McQuaid #politics #worlds

Mads Kaggestad
@arbeidsbuksa_no @sponsorconsult @torkil @htiedemann UCI have to a large extent been governed by Verbruggen. I hope it gets better without him.

Harald Tiedemann (President of the norwegian cycling federation)
@Mads_Kaggestad @arbeidsbuksa_no @sponsorconsult @torkil This is about several issues, who takes over and not least the worlds

Mads Kaggestad
@arbeidsbuksa_no @sponsorconsult @torkil Im optimistic and have faith in @htiedemann. The limit has been reached, there is willingness to act.


----

Nice that the Norwegian Union is open, but it's not a good sign when the president states that getting the #worlds is one of the reasons why they dont criticize McQuaid

 

[workingclasshero]

Nice that the Norwegian Union is open, but it's not a good sign when the president states that getting the #worlds is one of the reasons why they dont criticize McQuaid

check out these quality posts made a few days ago:

he does go out of his way to praise McQuaid's antidoping work ffs. The way politics work for el presidente is he tries to position himself to get into the UCI himself.

he's shown his cards and it turns out he is a powermad liability

why? El presidente wants to deliver the world champs to norway, if he does and then pulls off a good week it will mean he edges closer to the big time internationally himself.

top insight

 

[Dazed and Confused]

This twitter conversation including the norwegian union president(@htiedemand), the sponsorship guru Jacob Lund(@sponsorconsult) and Mads Kaggestad(@MadsKaggestad) was quite interesting, so I translated it for you guys.
It all started with this tweet:
Mads Kaggestad:
Very good! "@sponsocrconsult #sykkeldop #NcF wants to remove Hein Verbruggen from the honorary list of the union.

( https://twitter.com/Mads_Kaggestad/status/263721580331429888 )

Me:
@Mads_Kaggestad @sponsorconsult did #ncf change its mind on McQuaid?

Jacob Lund:
@torkil @Mads_Kaggestad They don't want to attack him now!

Jacob Lund:
@torkil @arbeidsbuksa_no @Mads_Kaggestad @htiedemann Good start with Hein Verbruggen

etc

----

Nice that the Norwegian Union is open, but it's not a good sign when the president states that getting the #worlds is one of the reasons why they dont criticize McQuaid

Joke leadership. Not unlike the rest of the national unions probably. The question is: are there better leaders lined up as candidates?