Strava sued over cyclist death

[Rip:30]

I would appreciate if posters would indicate if they are a parent or not. Better yet, tell us if any of your children have died because of a stupid dare. How long did it take for the hole in your life to heal? Just a stupid kid anyway. Wouldn't it be nice other moms and dads didn't have to bury their stupid children?

so blaming other people is going to help ease the loss? maybe the parents should take a look in the mirror and sue themselves for raising the child to take excessive risks or buying him a bicycle. scumbag pple like this should be counter-sued for trying to ruin other peoples lives for their own benefit.

RIP common sense and personal responsibility.

 

[Afrank]

so blaming other people is going to help ease the loss? maybe the parents should take a look in the mirror and sue themselves for raising the child to take excessive risks or buying him a bicycle. scumbag pple like this should be counter-sued for trying to ruin other peoples lives for their own benefit.

RIP common sense and personal responsibility.

I'd like to give Kudos to that post.

 

[biokemguy]

RIP common sense and personal responsibility.

another +1

The type of person who takes stupid risks is often the same type of person who blames others when they have to face the consequence of those risks.

 

[42x16ss]

Of course - why take responsibility for your own actions and choices when you can litigate

 

[ElChingon]

I'm gonna go ride that course. My tuck is better and I can top the max speed and shave like 3 seconds. cant wait to beat my chest in the LBS ride after.

Should be an organized event sponsored by Strava just to **** off the family issuing the case. Get the streets closed and let the masses set records so high that guys current times would not be listed any where near the top.

 

[rickshaw]

RIP common sense and personal responsibility.

Looks like the majority are in favor of PERSONAL responsibility, and against CORPORATE responsibility. Thankfully these matters are decided in a court of law, and not in cycling forums. Interesting that usually when some dumb fak cyclist gets killed by a car, because he/she was being a dumb fak we see an outpouring pro-cycling outrage here.

These things are never black or white, 100% this or 100% that. The courts will decide the degree of culpability. Lets stay tuned, and stop sheading tears whenever a stupid cyclist gets what they have coming.

 

[hiero2]

Back in the day, we would swap times anyway. People are always competitive.
I would push myself on descents in trianing because you can loose a race on the downhill and I enjoyed it all.

If Strava goes down to this, then racing goes down because in effect Strava is a form of competition. But it is not formal competition. I had family members that could never understand why I raced. They were very negative about it. Let freedom rain, let freedon rain... Bicycling is dangerous, but so is driving a car. This is nothing but a shakedown.

Risk is an inherent part of living.

Strava does not equal racing.

Racing teaches you how to handle your bike at speed. Strava encourages those that do not have that skill set to go out and ride beyond their capabilities to get some ridiculous "KOM".

Strava is garbage.

Again, I second slowoldman. Strava is not racing - strava is the street lugers on open roads - Strava is the skateboarders and free-riders and base-jumpers who do it in a city. Strava is the bicyclist descending the MacKenzie pass road at 50mph, because they can, ignoring the fact that a car driving the legal speed will not be able to avoid them. They are encouraging an open competition among unexperienced participants, on streets that are open to traffic. By the nature of this, it is going to encourage individuals to disobey traffic laws in order to get better times. Traffic laws are in place, not for YOUR safety, but for OUR safety. The man (person) who actually hits one of these cyclists because of an action the cyclist took will suffer - financially and mentally - through no responsibility of his own.

Encouraging unplanned and unscheduled competition on open streets is to encourage scofflaw behavior. If you want to lament the loss of common sense - that is the point at which you need to begin your lamentation and wailing!

 

[hiero2]

Would that apply to any record keeping list? Whether it be a piece of paper with pencil writings or only for fancy electronic gadgets?

Maybe the parents should sue the speed-o-meter maker? or the GPS maker which allowed Strava to list those results, heck the satellite that sent the data!

Would that apply to any record keeping list? Stop and think a minute. Your local club record list has a very limited and self-filtering reach. Strava is like posting your club record list on a billboard at the city limits on every highway. It is not a limited and known group - it is open and available to members of the public who are not familiar with the other members.

Back to the "shouting fire in a crowded theater" example - your club list is a very exclusive showing - only people who know you or your group are there. It is very unlikely that more than a percent or two of the people present in the theater are unknown quantities. Compare that to a crowded theater - where essentially everyone is an unknown quantity to the other people present.

Re; "sue the gps maker or the speedo maker". Neither mfr is posting competitive records for a given stretch of roadway. These arguments are attempts to stir emotional responses, and they do not benefit a rational discussion.

 

[hiero2]

Should be an organized event sponsored by Strava just to **** off the family issuing the case. Get the streets closed and let the masses set records so high that guys current times would not be listed any where near the top.

If every Strava record was for planned events with closed streets, I could vote for that. But that isn't the way it really is, is it?

 

[Nick C.]

What about group rides that start from bike shop parking lots and (at least the ones I do) inevitably feature guys running lights, train barriers, swarming cars, tkaign up more than one lane etc. Should there be an incident would it be the shops fault?

 

[Boeing]

Of course - why take responsibility for your own actions and choices when you can litigate

why discuss the topic and mutual culpability when you can simply make it a moral black and white argument.

 

[Boeing]

Back in the day, we would swap times anyway. People are always competitive.
I would push myself on descents in trianing because you can loose a race on the downhill and I enjoyed it all.

If Strava goes down to this, then racing goes down because in effect Strava is a form of competition. But it is not formal competition. I had family members that could never understand why I raced. They were very negative about it. Let freedom rain, let freedon rain... Bicycling is dangerous, but so is driving a car. This is nothing but a shakedown.

Risk is an inherent part of living.

If it assumed that the rider should not break laws to achieve KOM on a GPS web site, then is it equally assumed the website should not provide a road map highlighting the successes people breaking the laws to achieve the same? ?

 

[Parera]

Traffic laws are in place, not for YOUR safety, but for OUR safety.

Yep. I doubt any of the binary moralists would be cool if Strava was also marketed towards to sport bike enthusiasts.

 

[cycladianpirate]

If it assumed that the rider should not break laws to achieve KOM on a GPS web site, then is it equally assumed the website should not provide a road map highlighting the successes people breaking the laws to achieve the same? ?

Brilliant! What next? A convicted bank robber suing the makers of "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid"?

 

[ShawnB]

Brilliant! What next? A convicted bank robber suing the makers of "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid"?

Clearly that's a specious argument. The issue is that Strava has knowingly invited people to compete for "best time" on public roads, with complete disregard for whether the times and speeds posted are in keeping with the legal use of said roads.

It would have served them (and their case) better if they had included a simple function that refused to post any time containing max velocity data faster than the speed limit marked for that road -- even momentarily.

That information was 100% available. They did not avail themselves of it, before posting thousands of times that are demonstrably in violation of traffic safety laws* and the posted speed limits on those sections of roadway. Then, they continued to encourage people to sign up and 'compete' to beat the existing scofflaw times.

I too think they will settle. In a heartbeat. As they should.
Then they should quickly write some new code ruling out the above conditions, before more cases come their way.




* I note "traffic safety laws" because even if your max velocity data is below the posted speed limit, Strava could still be posting times that indicate moving violations. E.g. 1) your average speed is at (but not violating) a posted speed limit, but 2) the section of roadway contains a Stop sign. If so, you have logically violated the Stop sign in maintaining your average speed at the posted limit for that roadway.

Strava would need to account for both of these factors (max velocity, average velocity) in order to not be seen as encouraging illegal action by their users 'challenging' each other for top spot on the 'leaderboard' (their terms). They did not even try.

 

[Boeing]

Brilliant! What next? A convicted bank robber suing the makers of "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid"?

no wonderlic because the robber is convicted

 

[Boeing]

Clearly that's a specious argument. The issue is that Strava has knowingly invited people to compete for "best time" on public roads, with complete disregard for whether the times and speeds posted are in keeping with the legal use of said roads.

It would have served them (and their case) better if they had included a simple function that refused to post any time containing max velocity data faster than the speed limit marked for that road -- even momentarily.

That information was 100% available. They did not avail themselves of it, before posting thousands of times that are demonstrably in violation of traffic safety laws* and the posted speed limits on those sections of roadway. Then, they continued to encourage people to sign up and 'compete' to beat the existing scofflaw times.

I too think they will settle. In a heartbeat. As they should.
Then they should quickly write some new code ruling out the above conditions, before more cases come their way.




* I note "traffic safety laws" because even if your max velocity data is below the posted speed limit, Strava could still be posting times that indicate moving violations. E.g. 1) your average speed is at (but not violating) a posted speed limit, but 2) the section of roadway contains a Stop sign. If so, you have logically violated the Stop sign in maintaining your average speed at the posted limit for that roadway.

Strava would need to account for both of these factors (max velocity, average velocity) in order to not be seen as encouraging illegal action by their users 'challenging' each other for top spot on the 'leaderboard' (their terms). They did not even try.

Can the defendant prove assumption of risk? is a real question. I think not

for all the pride mongers and moral crusaders, assumption of risk is....ahhh forget it

Settle because both sides will recognize comparative responsibility or comparative fault and share some blame.

 

[Boeing]

Meanwhile Felony warrant issued for San Fransisco cyclist

Felony vehicular manslaughter

excessive speed

failure to yield


http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/san_francisco&id=8700349

nice

looking at up to 16 months and based on what people think of cyclist I am sure the equivalent of an all white jury

 

[MarkvW]

Meanwhile Felony warrant issued for San Fransisco cyclist

Felony vehicular manslaughter

excessive speed

failure to yield


http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/san_francisco&id=8700349

nice

looking at up to 16 months and based on what people think of cyclist I am sure the equivalent of an all white jury

Dude deserves prison. Sometime between one year and two. And that's kind. His extreme callousness afterward almost makes me want to cry for more.

Gosh, you sure got me going!

 

[MarkvW]

Can the defendant prove assumption of risk? is a real question. I think not

for all the pride mongers and moral crusaders, assumption of risk is....ahhh forget it

Settle because both sides will recognize comparative responsibility or comparative fault and share some blame.

If you get past the free speech issues, I'd think that there are big battles over duty and proximate cause.

 

[Boeing]

Don't be so quick to assume this is a shake down. Damages would be minimal. plaintiffs are parents. deceased Single 41 no dependents.. cost of suit and interest, minimal hospital expenses, peak earning years ahead of him is all but still.

On paper it doesn't have the lure of an annuity

 

[Boeing]

If you get past the free speech issues, I'd think that there are big battles over duty and proximate cause.

strava will likely hand this off to their CGL carrier and circle jerk it for a few years then settle on the down low with family

If I were a young prosecutor (and I am not nor was) I'd take this case. build a career on it with out a win.


Let me ask you this: Both suites are California . STRAVA is multi state multi country and well intrenched in the laws of the road in each. What are the ramifications for State international law in future suits? my casual understanding stops here. ramifications for web based business?

no evidence of advertizing decline on site yet.

 

[MarkvW]

strava will likely hand this off to their CGL carrier and circle jerk it for a few years then settle on the down low with family

If I were a young prosecutor (and I am not nor was) I'd take this case. build a career on it with out a win.


Let me ask you this: Both suites are California . STRAVA is multi state multi country and well intrenched in the laws of the road in each. What are the ramifications for State international law in future suits? my casual understanding stops here. ramifications for web based business?

no evidence of advertizing decline on site yet.

There are a slew of issues associated with your question. And they play out differently for the Strava users and their victims.

Where should the case be heard? That's the first question. I'd bet Strava only lets people use its site if they agree that the case will be heard in its home state (I assume CA). That kind of contract provision usually gets upheld.

Then there's the choice of laws question. I expect Strava only lets people use its site if they agree that the relationship will be governed by CA law. I expect that kind of contract provision gets upheld too.

For users and dead users' families, my guess is that they're stuck with CA courts and law because the user agreed to it. Victims may be able to drag Strava to their State's court (if their long arm statute reaches far enough and the Constitution permits. Choice of law for the victims depends on an analysis I've forgotten and that differs from state to state.

Binding precedent can only get created if the case gets appealed and published. That precedent will only have binding effect in the State where it was rendered. That precedent only applies to the "law" and not the "facts" (and things can get blurry).

A judgment against Strava is binding everywhere for the other side and can be used by any other opponent to prove the prior bad behavior (if it is relevant).

If Strava loses because of bad facts, it may be stuck with those bad facts everywhere (collateral estoppel/issue preclusion). This is fact-specific. The basic idea is that Strava shouldn't be able to retry factual issues that were already decided against them. (Like a factual determination that they made a considered corporate decision to try to recreate Death Race 3000 with their site).

Once Strava gets CA sorted out, it will know what to expect from its user opponents. Victim opponents may keep on coming at them from different states, creating uncertainty.

That's what Google tells me, anyway.

Strava is worried about litigation expense, that's for sure. If their carrier has to pay, their rates go up. They aren't that rich, I'd bet.

Not sure I'd mind a judgment against Strava on behalf of the non-user victim. That person didn't ask for the Strava-encouraged jerk to kill him in the crosswalk.

 

[Boeing]

Meanwhile Tour TV add still invite people to log in and challenge yourself to beat the time of professional cross country mountain bikers....

tick tock

 

[ElChingon]

Meanwhile Tour TV add still invite people to log in and challenge yourself to beat the time of professional cross country mountain bikers....

tick tock

Aagghhhh, any of those SF kids going to make it over there