Study which show us that training with PM does not make you faster

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Apr 21, 2009
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FrankDay said:
You can complain all you want but that is what the only science on the topic says.

All the data shows is that two groups who performed similar intervals at comparable workloads but adopted different pacing strategies in each both improved in a max (aerobic) power test over a control group.

Seeing they didn't take into account that target power in the GPOWER group should have been gradually increasing over the 4 week period (if the training stimulus was adequate and recovery sufficient to see positive adaptations) and there are issues with the determination of the 80% of max (aerobic) power. Both groups improved from the control but seeing they are not comparing apples with apples between GP and GHR groups any conclusions are likely to be erroneous.

I also see you missed the part where they said all 40km tests were a simulated on an indoor trainer. So much for different environmental conditions:p
 
Sep 23, 2010
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CoachFergie said:
All the data shows is that two groups who performed similar intervals at comparable workloads but adopted different pacing strategies in each both improved in a max (aerobic) power test over a control group.
The authors would disagree with your assessment. I suggest you write a letter to the editor of the journal about your observations or conduct your own study that better reflects your opinion as to how it should have been done.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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I am content that no data has been presented that deters me from the way I coach and how I prescribe intensity seeing I get feedback from my riders with power meters on a daily basis.

The authors suggestions are redundant because if you do have a power meter you get instant feedback and if you don't will have to settle for guessing heart rate zones or RPE.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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CoachFergie said:
I am content that no data has been presented that deters me from the way I coach and how I prescribe intensity seeing I get feedback from my riders with power meters on a daily basis.
I would have expected no less from you sir.
 
Dec 4, 2010
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FrankDay said:
actually, you will note that I almost immediately edited my answer to address that issue. You apparently got to it before I did.

Edit: Let me say that there are several studies on my product and the results are mixed. None of them, IMHO, are adequate to address what we think happens over the course of a full season of intense use. This is the first and only study looking at this issue for the PM so it is not possible to have mixed results. The only study on the PM so far shows no benefit to using one and even suggests outcome might be worse.

So, back to my question: who would have the greater necessity for bias - me, who has no significant investment, monetary or otherwise , or you, whose product sales numbers are dependent on being broadcast in a favorable manner and whose product stands to gain upon publicized alleged deficiencies in competitors' products?

Hmmm, justification of my $800 investment or protecting the reputation/viability/sustainability of your $$$$$$$ investment...
 
Sep 23, 2010
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fujisst said:
So, back to my question: who would have the greater necessity for bias - me, who has no significant investment, monetary or otherwise , or you, whose product sales numbers are dependent on being broadcast in a favorable manner and whose product stands to gain upon publicized alleged deficiencies in competitors' products?

Hmmm, justification of my $800 investment or protecting the reputation/viability/sustainability of your $$$$$$$ investment...
As regards this issue I have no investment other than trying to elicit what the science says. People seem to think that because I participate in these threads my sole intention is to sell my product. If others didn't bring my product up it wouldn't receive a mention in these threads by me. I have owned a PM in the past and own a $7,000 ergometer now so I believe power can be a valuable tool but it is frequently represented here and at other places as the training holy grail without a stitch of science to back up those statements.

All of us are biased by our personal experiences. There is so much "lore" in athletics that has zero science to back things up.

The same is true in medicine. There are a million ways to treat "back pain" and hardly any of them have long-term success much better than any other, including placebo. But, each has its advocates and all the advocates have a financial interest, be it the provider or the insurance company (whose interest is to deny everything). The poor patient is usually stuck with the treatment bias of the physician, which is usually based upon experience. Is it any different in athletics, the poor athlete is stuck with the bias of the coach?

If one isn't open to even asking the question then surely the truth will never be discovered. Ask the proper questions, see what the data really says, and soon (hopefully) we will be on the path to enlightenment. The internet is a great place for this questioning to occur. Unfortunately, the internet is filled with cyber bullies who try to humiliate and intimidate anyone who disagrees with them. Luckily, the occasional scientific paper comes along that should cause them pause but rarely does.

So, anyhow, to answer your question. I still believe you are more biased than me because even though you are not trying to sell anything your opinion as regards the usefulness of the PM is primarily based upon your own experience and the opinion of others, not on the science.
 
Dec 4, 2010
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FrankDay said:
As regards this issue I have no investment other than trying to elicit what the science says. People seem to think that because I participate in these threads my sole intention is to sell my product. If others didn't bring my product up it wouldn't receive a mention in these threads by me.

If it walks, talks, and acts like a duck - it sure ain't no chicken.

Pertaining to the remainder of your reply, I could be wrong, but you sure sound like the one doing all the justifying here...jus' sayin'...
 
Sep 23, 2010
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fujisst said:
If it walks, talks, and acts like a duck - it sure ain't no chicken.

Pertaining to the remainder of your reply, I could be wrong, but you sure sound like the one doing all the justifying here...jus' sayin'...
You are welcome to your opinion.
 
Nov 25, 2010
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From the text of the report, it appears to me that a major part of the study was to have the GHEART and GPOWER groups train at an EQUAL level of intensity.

from p3 of the pdf
"These values were chosen with the aim of ensuring that both HIT groups trained at the same intensity."

If achieving equal high intensity training (HIT) was a goal to the study - then a logical conclusion is that the method they used to assign the HR and POWER training levels to GHEART and GPOWER was flawed, because the result of the training was different between the 2 groups. They 'expected' the results to be similar (since they thought the training intensity was the same).

From the Introduction on p1 -
"Accordingly, the aim of this study was to compare the training adaptations and performance characteristics of well-trained cyclists after 4 weeks of HIT using either heart rate or power output to prescribe the training intensity.
We used a 40-km time trial and V_ o2max test as measures of performance (21). We hypothesized that there would be no measurable differences between the 2 modes of training."

I don't think they showed that either HR or POWER is generally a better tool, they only showed that THEIR training intensity levels for the 2 groups were NOT similar enough to yield similar results.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Sep 23, 2010
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JayKosta said:
From the text of the report, it appears to me that a major part of the study was to have the GHEART and GPOWER groups train at an EQUAL level of intensity.

from p3 of the pdf
"These values were chosen with the aim of ensuring that both HIT groups trained at the same intensity."

If achieving equal high intensity training (HIT) was a goal to the study - then a logical conclusion is that the method they used to assign the HR and POWER training levels to GHEART and GPOWER was flawed, because the result of the training was different between the 2 groups. They 'expected' the results to be similar (since they thought the training intensity was the same).

From the Introduction on p1 -
"Accordingly, the aim of this study was to compare the training adaptations and performance characteristics of well-trained cyclists after 4 weeks of HIT using either heart rate or power output to prescribe the training intensity.
We used a 40-km time trial and V_ o2max test as measures of performance (21). We hypothesized that there would be no measurable differences between the 2 modes of training."

I don't think they showed that either HR or POWER is generally a better tool, they only showed that THEIR training intensity levels for the 2 groups were NOT similar enough to yield similar results.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
Come on. Eyeballing the power level in the figure they gave one would have to conclude that the power group actually did more work in the 4 minutes than the HR group.
20ib1xf.jpg

500 watts for 15 seconds, followed by 450 watts for 30 seconds, followed by 250 watts for 3.25 minutes is 1,162.5 watt minutes, less total energy expenditure than 350 watts for 4 minutes (1,400 watt minutes). This is all wishful thinking. How is it we are now trying to explain the better result of the HR group because of this intensity difference?

Even if the end result of the study is a method by which it is possible to assign "equal intensity" to whichever way of feedback one chooses to use something has been learned of some value. Further, it still puts to bed the notion that it is not possible to achieve equal results using a HRM compared to a PM.

I personally think that most would have accepted their scenario at the beginning as being as close to equal as is possible and analysis of the actual numbers indicates that the power group seems to have actually done more work during these intervals than the HR group. If one is to assign a reason for the difference I would think it is the time dependent nature of the power curve in the heart rate group compared to the power group. The HR group had a much higher initial power which then tapered off to a lower power compared to the power group which had a much steadier power throughout the period. One might infer it is the nature of this power application that causes the better results. To replicate this power application pattern using a PM the coach must prescribe something like 500 watts for 15 seconds then 450 watts for 30 seconds then 250 watts for the rest of the time. I guess it might work if the athlete didn't run into a tree while looking at the meter. Or, he could just prescribe an interval based on HR. :)
 
Jun 19, 2009
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While I appreciate the depth of analysis to this point if you are coaching you can agree on one thing: get your rider to train hard and recover. If both methods are arguing minimal incremental improvement the riders will percieve improvement when they race. Hopefully they don't pay a bunch to find this out.
 

oldborn

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May 14, 2010
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Good morning;)

So let s blow this sucka study, first critic said that HR was measured in lab conditions, so every study was performed in lab due controled conditions.
Second critic goes that HR group did a more work, we maybe found that is not quite true.

For PM users/coaches/sellers what other critics you find? Let discuss it;)

Or should i just rename thread in:

"Look at me, I am a PM user/coach! Can I persuade you to become one too, despite no evidence?":D

Cheers!
 
Jul 24, 2009
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Oh wow, anything can get published these days...

My training isn't sports science but, based on what I've read in the literature, this study seems seriously flawed.

1/ The protocol, twice weekly and 8x4min intervals @80% peak-power, is a very low work-rate. Such short intervals typically are done at 90+ % of peak power, and often 3x/week. LT intervals are performed at about 80% of peak-power, and typically done 2x20m, or maybe 3x20m, so 8x4mins would probably be poor at improving FTP too.

If these are well-trained cyclists, as the authors claim, this low work-rate would lead to undertraining? That there was any performance gains at all implies that this either: the protocol -- including the recovery rides -- wasn't the participants' only training during the four week period, they were overtrained/fatigued going into this study, or that they weren't actually well-trained cyclists? (Either way, results are then of little value.)

2/ Since HR lags power by a considerable amount (a commonly used, but approximate and hopeless figure, is 30 seconds), any attempt to do a short interval at a fixed HR, without using specific techniques to account for this lag, would be expected to result in a greater quantity of work being performed, in the first few intervals anyway, versus the PM interval protocol. This is because the "area under the curve" on the work-done graph will be greater for HR-regulated intervals, if the participants successfully achieve the desired HR for as much of the interval as possible. (This is a maths thing, if you don't believe me, go look up "integration", and then think about what the HR-vs-time and power-vs-time plots will look like. There are non-linear effects too, though significant, I'm not going to cover them here.) And if the participants only try to achieve the desired HR by the end of the interval, this could lead to a lower workload than expected. And any attempts to regulate power based on HR during the interval will be extremely difficult due to the HR latency, and will require considerable experience. So it was no surprise to see that the std. dev. on the average work-rate for the HR group was far higher than for the PM group.

This is why many coaches consider HR as either unimportant or worthless for short intervals. So pacing by HR for these intervals effectively means very little pacing at all, i.e. the participants were mostly training by PE for early part of the interval, hence were less likely to undertrain (as shown by the larger std.dev. on the average power of their intervals, so this HR group actually managed to accumulate some intensity during the first 1.5 mins of each interval, as the HR was ramping up, then they tailed off for the rest of the interval).

3/ Workload between intervals was not controlled or measured. Between a participant's measly 80% "warmup" intervals, were they bored and did they do real intervals, for example? Did they stop pedaling completely? This is poor design of the experiment, since many HIT protocols have target workloads for both "on" and "off" periods to control for this, i.e. 8x [4mins@90% + 1.5mins@50%].

4/ If a cyclist can perform two sessions of 8x4min@80% intervals in the 1st week, which would be extremely likely with such a light workload, then this fixed workload would lead to a plateau. Workload needs to increase to force the organism to continue to adapt. And because the PM users had a tool that allows them to accurately regulate their effort, allowing them to actually execute the training plan, then they are more likely to achieve the plan's goal, a plateau (or more likely undertraining if they were actually well-trained cyclists).

5/ The statistical techniques used by the authors of the paper were obsolete, at best. This is more a problem with the low-level of statistics knowledge and understanding in the social-sciences, I suspect. (My background in frequentist statistics is weak, so I don't know how to fix it, but the statistical analyses used in this paper are very laughable these days.)


My take:

All this study showed was that a PM allows the user to execute their desired training plan more effectively, and since the training plan would be expected to lead to undertraining, the outcome was still unexpected, since power slightly increased. But there seems to be so many design flaws that I'm not going to lose any sleep over this. :)

The HR group though, completely hopeless with pacing, and therefore executing the desired workload, demonstrated what coaches already know about HRMs, they're rubbish for short intervals.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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FrankDay said:
As regards this issue I have no investment other than trying to elicit what the science says.

Yeah sure Frank, you have been trying to muddy the power waters for some time now. A rather lengthy thread on cyclingforums trying to repeat the lie that power meters are meant to improve performance rather than measure it.

I have owned a PM in the past and own a $7,000 ergometer now so I believe power can be a valuable tool but it is frequently represented here and at other places as the training holy grail without a stitch of science to back up those statements.

Ha ha, more lies. I haven't seen any rider thank his SRM for the win:p

All of us are biased by our personal experiences. There is so much "lore" in athletics that has zero science to back things up.

Comedy Gold Frank.

If one isn't open to even asking the question then surely the truth will never be discovered.

Yet you expect people to take a leap of faith with Gimmickcranks.

Ask the proper questions, see what the data really says, and soon (hopefully) we will be on the path to enlightenment. The internet is a great place for this questioning to occur. Unfortunately, the internet is filled with cyber bullies who try to humiliate and intimidate anyone who disagrees with them. Luckily, the occasional scientific paper comes along that should cause them pause but rarely does.

More comedy gold. Another s**ty little study from JSCR which means it got turned down by MSSE.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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FrankDay said:
Come on. Eyeballing the power level in the figure they gave one would have to conclude that the power group actually did more work in the 4 minutes than the HR group.

Some of us are a little more professional than just eyeballing a graph when the information is there for us to read. But then you did miss that the 40km TT were actually simulated.

Swart et al. (2009) said:
The objective of prescribing identical average training intensities for each HIT group was achieved during this study. Average power outputs during each interval for groups GPOWER and GHEART expressed as percentages of Wmax were 79 6 1 and 78 6 3% Wmax, respectively.

500 watts for 15 seconds, followed by 450 watts for 30 seconds, followed by 250 watts for 3.25 minutes is 1,162.5 watt minutes, less total energy expenditure than 350 watts for 4 minutes (1,400 watt minutes). This is all wishful thinking. How is it we are now trying to explain the better result of the HR group because of this intensity difference?

Read back a few posts and you will see I described the intensity of the two groups as the same.

Even if the end result of the study is a method by which it is possible to assign "equal intensity" to whichever way of feedback one chooses to use something has been learned of some value. Further, it still puts to bed the notion that it is not possible to achieve equal results using a HRM compared to a PM.

Results:D The intervals produced the results. As mentioned the riders could have been watching two different TV shows and seen the same results.

I personally think that most would have accepted their scenario at the beginning as being as close to equal as is possible and analysis of the actual numbers indicates that the power group seems to have actually done more work during these intervals than the HR group.

So you actually haven't read the study, just thought the little graphs were sufficient. What the graphs do show is that even by coaching the riders to ease into their HR efforts they overshoot the training intensity.

If one is to assign a reason for the difference I would think it is the time dependent nature of the power curve in the heart rate group compared to the power group. The HR group had a much higher initial power which then tapered off to a lower power compared to the power group which had a much steadier power throughout the period. One might infer it is the nature of this power application that causes the better results. To replicate this power application pattern using a PM the coach must prescribe something like 500 watts for 15 seconds then 450 watts for 30 seconds then 250 watts for the rest of the time. I guess it might work if the athlete didn't run into a tree while looking at the meter. Or, he could just prescribe an interval based on HR. :)

We spend a considerable amount of time training riders to pace their events from the flying 200m to a 10 day stage race. The considerable amount of research on pacing and performance would suggest that the HR group were not training in a specific fashion for any cycling event.
 
Apr 21, 2009
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ihavenolimbs said:
My training isn't sports science but, based on what I've read in the literature, this study seems seriously flawed.

Mad Kiwi love and kudos on a great interpretation of the study.

http://demo02.onlineinnovations.com/cyclingsa/assets/Articles/1SwartetalJSCR2009.pdf

1/ The protocol, twice weekly and 8x4min intervals @80% peak-power, is a very low work-rate. Such short intervals typically are done at 90+ % of peak power, and often 3x/week. LT intervals are performed at about 80% of peak-power, and typically done 2x20m, or maybe 3x20m, so 8x4mins would probably be poor at improving FTP too.

Correct. The training band for FTP work is around 70-80% of MAP. 90-100% of MAP for max aerobic power development and efforts for around 4-8mins. But both groups did improve performance over the control group. So at least we know that interval training is better than JRA.

If these are well-trained cyclists, as the authors claim, this low work-rate would lead to undertraining? That there was any performance gains at all implies that this either: the protocol -- including the recovery rides -- wasn't the participants' only training during the four week period, they were overtrained/fatigued going into this study, or that they weren't actually well-trained cyclists? (Either way, results are then of little value.)

The improvements are less impressive than the studies done using higher intensity intervals and intervention periods of as little as 2 weeks.

2/ Since HR lags power by a considerable amount (a commonly used, but approximate and hopeless figure, is 30 seconds), any attempt to do a short interval at a fixed HR, without using specific techniques to account for this lag, would be expected to result in a greater quantity of work being performed, in the first few intervals anyway, versus the PM interval protocol.

This was accounted for in the study where they were advised to build into the HR based efforts but even still the pacing was shocking for the efforts.

The authors are good enough, even if Frank seems to have glossed over this point, do suggest that seeing some of the HR based efforts maintained a 5sec peak power 97 watts higher than Power based group and admit that the HR group may have spent time training at or above VO2max power which numerous studies suggest is the optimal training zone for aerobic development.

4/ If a cyclist can perform two sessions of 8x4min@80% intervals in the 1st week, which would be extremely likely with such a light workload, then this fixed workload would lead to a plateau. Workload needs to increase to force the organism to continue to adapt. And because the PM users had a tool that allows them to accurately regulate their effort, allowing them to actually execute the training plan, then they are more likely to achieve the plan's goal, a plateau (or more likely undertraining if they were actually well-trained cyclists).

The way I prescribe intervals by power is to have the rider perform intervals till the power drops off to a certain level. This is covered in Allen and Coggan (2010) but I actually picked up this method from an old Fred Hatfield book on body building. This ensures that each training session delivers an optimal training load. One of two things can happen. If power is set too low then they end up doing a huge number of repeats so we know to increase the training intensity for next time and if power is set too high they will end up doing fewer efforts but will still attain overload but depending on the goals of training probably drop the power target for the next session.

Doing this it doesn't take too long for the rider to be very in tune with the right pace for each duration or right number of reps depending on goal event. One thing is for sure they never do reps where they start too hard and finish at a far lower power. Anyone remember Jack Bobridge in Worlds Pursuit last year. Glad to see he got his pacing right this year even if it meant another Silver for Kiwi Jesse Sergent.

5/ The statistical techniques used by the authors of the paper were obsolete, at best. This is more a problem with the low-level of statistics knowledge and understanding in the social-sciences, I suspect. (My background in frequentist statistics is weak, so I don't know how to fix it, but the statistical analyses used in this paper are very laughable these days.)

Prob submitted to MSSE but failed to pass muster and dumped on JSCR.

My take:

All this study showed was that a PM allows the user to execute their desired training plan more effectively, and since the training plan would be expected to lead to undertraining, the outcome was still unexpected, since power slightly increased. But there seems to be so many design flaws that I'm not going to lose any sleep over this. :)

The HR group though, completely hopeless with pacing, and therefore executing the desired workload, demonstrated what coaches already know about HRMs, they're rubbish for short intervals.

Similar to Nimmerrichter etal 2011 and Lim etal 2011.
 

oldborn

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May 14, 2010
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ihavenolimbs said:
My training isn't sports science but, based on what I've read in the literature, this study seems seriously flawed.

1/ The protocol, twice weekly and 8x4min intervals @80% peak-power, is a very low work-rate. Such short intervals typically are done at 90+ % of peak power, and often 3x/week. LT intervals are performed at about 80% of peak-power, and typically done 2x20m, or maybe 3x20m, so 8x4mins would probably be poor at improving FTP too.

If these are well-trained cyclists, as the authors claim, this low work-rate would lead to undertraining? That there was any performance gains at all implies that this either: the protocol -- including the recovery rides -- wasn't the participants' only training during the four week period, they were overtrained/fatigued going into this study, or that they weren't actually well-trained cyclists? (Either way, results are then of little value.

This protocol/workout is still called HIT, and by all definitions is hard workout. IMHO study was not designed to prepare them for Giro, so undertrained subject are irelevant if they exist, and will be found in both group.
We can speculate, but author says they were well trained, for further information contact them.
They train in same intensity.


ihavenolimbs said:
2/ Since HR lags power by a considerable amount (a commonly used, but approximate and hopeless figure, is 30 seconds), any attempt to do a short interval at a fixed HR, without using specific techniques to account for this lag, would be expected to result in a greater quantity of work being performed, in the first few intervals anyway, versus the PM interval protocol. This is because the "area under the curve" on the work-done graph will be greater for HR-regulated intervals, if the participants successfully achieve the desired HR for as much of the interval as possible. (This is a maths thing, if you don't believe me, go look up "integration", and then think about what the HR-vs-time and power-vs-time plots will look like. There are non-linear effects too, though significant, I'm not going to cover them here.) And if the participants only try to achieve the desired HR by the end of the interval, this could lead to a lower workload than expected. And any attempts to regulate power based on HR during the interval will be extremely difficult due to the HR latency, and will require considerable experience. So it was no surprise to see that the std. dev. on the average work-rate for the HR group was far higher than for the PM group.

This is why many coaches consider HR as either unimportant or worthless for short intervals. So pacing by HR for these intervals effectively means very little pacing at all, i.e. the participants were mostly training by PE for early part of the interval, hence were less likely to undertrain (as shown by the larger std.dev. on the average power of their intervals, so this HR group actually managed to accumulate some intensity during the first 1.5 mins of each interval, as the HR was ramping up, then they tailed off for the rest of the interval)..

Subjects where pacing themselves with PM, therefore it should be 99% accurate.
Lucia, et al 2000 "HR and performance parameters in elite cyclist" find you are wrong together with those coaches who found " HRM unimportant or worthless for short intervals".

ihavenolimbs said:
3/ Workload between intervals was not controlled or measured. Between a participant's measly 80% "warmup" intervals, were they bored and did they do real intervals, for example? Did they stop pedaling completely? This is poor design of the experiment, since many HIT protocols have target workloads for both "on" and "off" periods to control for this, i.e. 8x [4mins@90% + 1.5mins@50%].

Again both groups has same conditions (irelevant if they both watching porns or cartoons), for all further info contact them;)


ihavenolimbs said:
4/ If a cyclist can perform two sessions of 8x4min@80% intervals in the 1st week, which would be extremely likely with such a light workload, then this fixed workload would lead to a plateau. Workload needs to increase to force the organism to continue to adapt. And because the PM users had a tool that allows them to accurately regulate their effort, allowing them to actually execute the training plan, then they are more likely to achieve the plan's goal, a plateau (or more likely undertraining if they were actually well-trained cyclists).

Are you elaborate some principles of training or study? Again aim of the study was not to undertrain or overtrain subjects

ihavenolimbs said:
5/ The statistical techniques used by the authors of the paper were obsolete, at best. This is more a problem with the low-level of statistics knowledge and understanding in the social-sciences, I suspect. (My background in frequentist statistics is weak, so I don't know how to fix it, but the statistical analyses used in this paper are very laughable these days.).

They used what they used. Please be more specific and tell us what are yours remarks about statistical techniques?


ihavenolimbs said:
My take:

All this study showed was that a PM allows the user to execute their desired training plan more effectively, and since the training plan would be expected to lead to undertraining, the outcome was still unexpected, since power slightly increased. But there seems to be so many design flaws that I'm not going to lose any sleep over this. :)

The HR group though, completely hopeless with pacing, and therefore executing the desired workload, demonstrated what coaches already know about HRMs, they're rubbish for short intervals.

Well, PM users want to think like you, but study shows us different evidence;)
Dude there is no rubbish in sport:eek:, i could only imagine how are you hurting cos 2000 something spent for PM.
 

oldborn

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May 14, 2010
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As i know how things are going in sport, it would be interesting to see a % of money which general importeur/producer of PM (any kind) in any country, are paying to coaches to promote and sell their products.;)
Nice snake oil, door to door presentation:eek:

Maybe they are learning from Herbalife
 
Apr 7, 2010
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I would question the work load of the HR and PM group. I take out of this is you need to adjust the workload of the PM group every week to increase. Just like the body and heart for the HR group increase. The body and heart adapts, so your work gets easier to achieve the same results week to week (80% target). Without adjusting the avg, workload of the PM group the body will adapt in 3 weeks and never really get better. just my 2 cents from a user who used both forms, no I didn't spend 2 G's for my PM either, less than 500 bucks...
 
Mar 18, 2009
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CoachFergie said:
Another s**ty little study from JSCR which means it got turned down by MSSE.

Hey, don't go knocking MSSE...after all, that's where Allen Lim's advisor was able to publish his (now well-outdated) dissertation research. ;)
 
Mar 18, 2009
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FrankDay said:
Come on. Eyeballing the power level in the figure they gave one would have to conclude that the power group actually did more work in the 4 minutes than the HR group.

Frank,

One of the first things you are taught in graduate school is that when "representative data are shown", it almost always means that "the data that best support our point are shown". So, even if your eyeball assessment is accurate, I don't think any conclusions can really be drawn from this figure.
 
Sep 23, 2010
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acoggan said:
Frank,

One of the first things you are taught in graduate school is that when "representative data are shown", it almost always means that "the data that best support our point are shown". So, even if your eyeball assessment is accurate, I don't think any conclusions can really be drawn from this figure.
Well, another thing they teach you is to actually read what was written. The data shown was "Representative examples of 2 randomly chosen subjects are shown in Figure 3." Randomly chosen hardly corresponds with "best supporting our point" although it does a good job of supporting their point. They later state "Although the average power outputs and heart rates did not differ" between the two groups the time course of the power was different. That was the point they were trying to make and what they were trying to illustrate so it seems that we should be able to draw some conclusions from this. My eyeball estimate that the HR group had lower work load was probably wrong when comparing the two groups together instead of these two riders from the authors statement. Of course, I guess you could contact the authors and ask for all the raw data so you could analyze it for yourself.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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FrankDay said:
Well, another thing they teach you is to actually read what was written. The data shown was "Representative examples of 2 randomly chosen subjects are shown in Figure 3." Randomly chosen hardly corresponds with "best supporting our point" although it does a good job of supporting their point.

Not surprisingly, Frank, you missed the point: just because data are claimed to be representative (or randomly selected) does not necessarily mean that they in fact are. That's why many scientists view such selective data presentation with great suspicion (and in fact I've had reviewers who have insisted that I replace graphs of single-subject data with group mean data, even when within-subject variance was the key issue).
 
Sep 23, 2010
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acoggan said:
Not surprisingly, Frank, you missed the point: just because data are claimed to be representative (or randomly selected) does not necessarily mean that they in fact are. That's why many scientists view such selective data presentation with great suspicion (and in fact I've had reviewers who have insisted that I replace graphs of single-subject data with group mean data, even when within-subject variance was the key issue).
Whatever. The data is what it is and we only have what they have given us. Isn't that the way it is with science sometimes?

If you are trying to use your "concerns" to rationalize ignoring the study you wouldn't be the first. But, it seems to me that a better way to address your concerns would be to contact the authors and try to get clarification. It isn't like you are a completely disinterested party here, you wrote the book.

More importantly, from my perspective, is at least there is a first study now with results that surprised, I am sure, almost everyone. Sure surprised me as I would have expected the two groups to test the same. Most here would have expected the PM group to test superior. Since the results suggest that what everyone has been saying may not really be the case I hope this study will cause additional research in this area to be done so we can say with some certainty what is really the case here.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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ihavenolimbs said:
My training isn't sports science but, based on what I've read in the literature, this study seems seriously flawed.

1/ The protocol, twice weekly and 8x4min intervals @80% peak-power, is a very low work-rate. Such short intervals typically are done at 90+ % of peak power, and often 3x/week. LT intervals are performed at about 80% of peak-power, and typically done 2x20m, or maybe 3x20m, so 8x4mins would probably be poor at improving FTP too.

If these are well-trained cyclists, as the authors claim, this low work-rate would lead to undertraining? That there was any performance gains at all implies that this either: the protocol -- including the recovery rides -- wasn't the participants' only training during the four week period, they were overtrained/fatigued going into this study, or that they weren't actually well-trained cyclists? (Either way, results are then of little value.)


My take:

All this study showed was that a PM allows the user to execute their desired training plan more effectively, and since the training plan would be expected to lead to undertraining, the outcome was still unexpected, since power slightly increased. But there seems to be so many design flaws that I'm not going to lose any sleep over this. :)

The HR group though, completely hopeless with pacing, and therefore executing the desired workload, demonstrated what coaches already know about HRMs, they're rubbish for short intervals.


My apologies for abbreviating your response. I doubt either of these two will listen to your wise conclusion.
 

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