Subpoenas issued -- Armstrong's goose is cooked

[Oldman]

I don't think the public will see the cancer angle the same way though. Maybe Armstrong does in part use that as a shield for good reason - that when the day came when people spoke out, which was always going to come at some point, people will say that he used his fame for a very good reason so they don't mind that much.

I think that will work with most ordinary people.

...or used a very good reason to burnish his fame and profit from it. If they see it that way I don't see it working in his favor. His best shot is a full, tearful mea culpa like 131313 insightfully suggests. That and writing some humongous checks to some active cancer research and like right now.

 

[tockit]

Armstrong is a transcendent figure, though. He's way bigger than cycling. And the average Joe or Josephine on the street really wants to believe. This is going to be a big deal for a lot of folks, and ultimately a big deal for Lance, who's image at this point has a lot more capital than his bike racing. It looks as though the arrow is pointed downward on both of those things.

Unfortunately, you're exactly right.

This will be devastating for cycling and I'm sure won't be taken well by the cancer support community.

Like him or not, Lance is basically a household name.

In the end, if this goes down, the whole sporting world will suffer.......

 

[Colm.Murphy]

That generation of tour riders seem pretty tough. It took someone who was emotionally unstable to spill the beans, and even that guy had been lying for years without conscience. It's not a full gone conclusion that they will roll over. After all, they're used to taking pain.

The interest part for me is, what if the investigation proves there was doping but not with federal funds? Will they drop the charges if that occurs?

It is not the use of Federal funds... It is using dope, to perform better, to GET the funds. That is called fraud. The US Govt does not like to be defrauded.

There are probably several other area of interest, beyond the fraud. Do some research and figure it out. Tax issues from selling off dozens, maybe hundreds of bikes over the years, hidden accounts to shield from US income tax, and then throw on top all the Intl wire and mail fraud to make it work, add some clear hierarchy and beneficiaries...and, voila, RICO.

Mr. Fan, meet Mr. ***.

 

[Crashes and punctures]

Sure it will, BPC. People just love being deceived.

But do you think people will see it as a straight "to be a liar or not be a liar - that is the question" scenario?

Americans are usually very fair minded. Even people who know little about the sport understand that doping was a huge part of it and he was up against crazy Europeans doing the same thing. His story and what he has done with his fame will play a large factor in the reaction to conclusion of this investigation, don't you think? That's just how the world works.

 

[BroDeal]

Unfortunately, you're exactly right.

This will be devastating for cycling and I'm sure won't be taken well by the cancer support community.

Like him or not, Lance is basically a household name.

In the end, if this goes down, the whole sporting world will suffer.......

It will mesh nicely with the bailouts on Wallstreet, the Ponzi schemes, bankruptcy of the auto companies, and massive fraud throughout the system. The public is receptive to the idea that the game is fixed and the guys at the top are little more than crooks.

 

[Crashes and punctures]

...or used a very good reason to burnish his fame and profit from it. If they see it that way I don't see it working in his favor. His best shot is a full, tearful mea culpa like 131313 insightfully suggests.

But that's what I'm getting at. Do you think your position will be the position of the public at large who generally think cancer charities and philanthropy is very good and praiseworthy?

 

[Anonymous]

Can you go to prison for saying you can't remember something?

In the CSA case witnesses on both sides said they can't remember. They must be sweating if it turns out they were lying.

You can, there is something you are missing: They will call people they can compel to testify. See, if they have dirt on YOU, and they ask you to talk, you talk. "Can't remember" gets you indicted when they have enough information to "remember" for you.

 

[tockit]

this is America, and some politicians are much dirtier than LA.

Lance could become a member of the Black Panthers, then maybe Eric Holder could drop the charges against him like he did for those thugs up in Philly...

 

[Anonymous]

I think if he did a mea culpa right now and came clean, and spent the next 3-5 years working on his image, he'd completely recover.

I don't think he's going to do that.

I'll totally be Lance's life coach. He'll have to pay me way more than he paid Mike Anderson, though. Lance, if you're listening, call me. I'll forget all about that thing at Gila...

Agree completely.

 

[Anonymous]

Why I know someone in prison is beside the point and perhaps embarrassing, but the whole cliche of rape in the showers is not as big a deal as we are taught to believe. If you can even get into the shower during the 30 minutes when thirty shower heads are activated and two thousand men want to shower is the problem. A lot of guys, I am told, use toilet water to wash themselves up nice and fresh to avoid the morning rush. The person I know went from a skinny teenager who feared being cell swapped to a ferocious over muscled fighter in the weight yard who swears he will only lose a fight if he dies. Now there's something to aspire to.

Actually, I too know someone who did time in Federal prison in Atlanta. (and many who did time in lesser prisons.) I just wrote that as a kicker line.

 

[Crashes and punctures]

It is not the use of Federal funds... It is using dope, to perform better, to GET the funds. That is called fraud. The US Govt does not like to be defrauded.

Thanks for answering my question.

But that's your opinion of how the legal authorities should handle this, not what will happen.

It seems that if they were to prove the doping got the federal funds then it opens up the argument about how prevalent doping was in the sport and whether that meant they had to dope to stop other teams unfairly depriving them of a federal sponsor. Do you see? There are so many ways to defend it so passing the fraud bench mark with a jury seems like a tough challenge if it's not directly about proving they doped.

Then on top of everything else Armstrong is so good at presenting himself. I spoke to my dad at the time of the riders presentation before the tour and he remarked how he liked the like the way Armstrong was so clear and engaging compared to the mumbling's of other team leaders who looked like they're rather be anywhere else and had nothing much to say. Armstrong does come across very well to ordinary people who don't know much about the sport.

 

[Polish]

The doping practices that will come to light may very well be rinky-dink when compared to what many want to believe or imagine or fantasize about.

No 17 years of EPO/CERA usage....
No coffee beans and EPO needled into rider's behinds ouch...
No overdosing on barbituates or amphetamines...

But lots of good old fashioned 1980's blood transfusing...OMG OMG OMG!

If that is the case, this investigation will peeter out.

And for every disillusioned or devasted or disgusted fan/person, there will be a thousand forgiving ones. The haters will be waaaaay outnumbered.

You know it is true. C'mon.

 

[cyclestationgiuseppe]

But that's what I'm getting at. Do you think your position will be the position of the public at large who generally think cancer charities and philanthropy is very good and praiseworthy?

Listen up you nitwit. My mom died of cancer just over 4 years ago. If anyone wants to do something to FIGHT this disease you should donate your money or your time to the American Cancer Society. Lance (other than using the disease as an excuse not to answer the current allegations) is basically worthless in regards to fighting cancer. Ask my Mom's oncologist.
I am an American. He is a fraud and a joke to the people out there on the front lines. A few visits to hospitals do nothing. Again, call any local oncologist and ask him/her if they give a *** about your super hero. Wearing a *** little livestrong bracelet does not go far during hospice care.

*** edited by mod ****

 

[tofino]

Any lawyers here?

As a Canuck I'm wondering about the whole subpoena process. Are they just confirming they have enough info to press charges? How many people are involved in the process (judges, lawyers, jury???).

So if you get asked to show up and they ask you "did you ever smoke dope with Fred". If you say yes you've admitted that you committed a crime. Can you say I'll take the 5th because I don't want to admit I did something illegal?

What about the question "Did you ever see Fred smoke some dope". I'm guessing Fred's lawyer is not in the room to question your character.

 

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately, you're exactly right.

This will be devastating for cycling and I'm sure won't be taken well by the cancer support community.

Like him or not, Lance is basically a household name.

In the end, if this goes down, the whole sporting world will suffer.......

No it won't. Revelation of the truth is NEVER a bad thing.

 

[VeloCity]

Lance could become a member of the Black Panthers, then maybe Eric Holder could drop the charges against him like he did for those thugs up in Philly...

You mean the case in which it was the the Bush administration DoJ that decided not to pursue charges? That decision to downgrade was made before either Obama or Holder took office. Holder had nothing to do with it.

Stop watching FoxNews, it'll rot your brain.

 

[erader]

Unfortunately, you're exactly right.

This will be devastating for cycling and I'm sure won't be taken well by the cancer support community.

Like him or not, Lance is basically a household name.

In the end, if this goes down, the whole sporting world will suffer.......[/QUOTE]

we survived clemens and woods. we'll get over it.

ed rader

 

[Big Doopie]

...It took someone who was emotionally unstable to spill the beans...

i love it. the guy who grows a conscience is "emotionally unstable", but the sociopathic liar and all the others who continue to commit fraud are supposedly "normal".

 

[Crashes and punctures]

Listen up you nitwit. My mom died of cancer just over 4 years ago. If anyone wants to do something to FIGHT this disease you should donate your money or your time to the American Cancer Society. Lance (other than using the disease as an excuse not to answer the current allegations) is basically worthless in regards to fighting cancer. Ask my Mom's oncologist.
I am an American. He is a fraud and a joke to the people out there on the front lines. A few visits to hospitals do nothing. Again, call any local oncologist and ask him/her if they give a flying fuc% about your super hero. Wearing a gay little livestrong bracelet does not go far during hospice care.

Go F yourself!

That goes for you too Polish.

You totally misunderstand the point I'm making. I'm not claiming for a second that Armstrong will have the support of all cancer survivors. I'm making a totally different point. My point was people generally think cancer charities and philanthropy are a good thing and that will massively effect how Armstrong is seen.

That some people on cycling news don't like his charity and think he uses it to protect himself and gain more money is totally irrelevent to how ordinary people will see it. Do you see? You should not get angry and rude with me just for pointing that out.

 

[Anonymous]

Listen up you nitwit. My mom died of cancer just over 4 years ago. If anyone wants to do something to FIGHT this disease you should donate your money or your time to the American Cancer Society. Lance (other than using the disease as an excuse not to answer the current allegations) is basically worthless in regards to fighting cancer. Ask my Mom's oncologist.
I am an American. He is a fraud and a joke to the people out there on the front lines. A few visits to hospitals do nothing. Again, call any local oncologist and ask him/her if they give a flying fuc% about your super hero. Wearing a gay little livestrong bracelet does not go far during hospice care.

Go F yourself!

That goes for you too Polish.

Wow. I am sorry to hear that. Thank you for the perspective. I have lost two friends to cancer, and it offends me greatly when I hear that someone who makes money off of his cancer, and uses it as some cloak of invincibility is treated like some Christ figure because he says the word "cancer" a lot.

 

[roadfreak44]

the chef knows

Publicas put this link in the "links thread," but it needs its own thread. Hamilton will bring the house down. He was there from the beginning and saw the transformation of the team when Armstrong, Bruyneel, and the ONCE doctors came aboard.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/14/sports/cycling/14cyclinginquiry.html?_r=1&hpw

So you know what Hmailton will say?
interesting.. I need you to pick six numbers each between one and 99..

 

[Crashes and punctures]

The doping practices that will come to light may very well be rinky-dink when compared to what many want to believe or imagine or fantasize about.

No 17 years of EPO/CERA usage....
No coffee beans and EPO needled into rider's behinds ouch...
No overdosing on barbituates or amphetamines...

But lots of good old fashioned 1980's blood transfusing...OMG OMG OMG!

If that is the case, this investigation will peeter out.

And for every disillusioned or devasted or disgusted fan/person, there will be a thousand forgiving ones. The haters will be waaaaay outnumbered.

You know it is true. C'mon.

You make a good point about blood transfusions. A lot of ordinary people don't really understand that. If you try to explain it to them they ask "but where is the doping part of using your own blood?"

 

[Cobblestones]

As a Canuck I'm wondering about the whole subpoena process. Are they just confirming they have enough info to press charges? How many people are involved in the process (judges, lawyers, jury???).

So if you get asked to show up and they ask you "did you ever smoke dope with Fred". If you say yes you've admitted that you committed a crime. Can you say I'll take the 5th because I don't want to admit I did something illegal?

What about the question "Did you ever see Fred smoke some dope". I'm guessing Fred's lawyer is not in the room to question your character.

For the first question, yes you can take the fifth. For the second question, you can't (unless you're, say, married to Fred).

 

[Anonymous]

i love it. the guy who grows a conscience is "emotionally unstable", but the sociopathic liar and all the others who continue to commit fraud are supposedly "normal".

Not to mention that the person whom you responded to is a mentally ill troll who isn't a cycling fan, and cruises this forum and others just writing inflammatory comments because it strokes his twisted ego.

He has been reported...not that it matters, this is his 3rd or 4th time he has created an account TODAY.

 

[hrotha]

No it won't. Revelation of the truth is NEVER a bad thing.

I'd say there's no doubt that it will hurt the sport, short-term. Many sponsors may shy away from cycling, and the credibility hit will be huge. It'll be like painful surgery.

Totally worth it in the long-term.