Suggestions and Ideas for the Tour de France

[BroDeal]

I don't think it's idiotic. It's a simple observation that, when the TDF had long time trials, there was more attacking in the mountains by the guys that can't time trial.

You are ignoring the other GTs, which feature shorter time trials and usually have more attacking than the Tour. You are also ignoring the likely possibility that the length of time trials has little to do with the amount of attacking in the mountains; it is more likely that there will be more attacking when more riders have a chance of winning the GC. Since there are very few riders who can do both a long time trial and climb well, long time trials tend to limit the number of potential winners. We saw that in spades this year when the TTT eliminated half the pre-Tour favorites from contention.

This line of reasoning also ignores those climbers who figure that they have no chance of winning the GC because of long time trials, so they never even try. A rider like Simoni was never able to do well at the Tour because there is no way he could overcome the time loss from a 60km time trial. You can say the same about a large number of the winners of the Giro and Vuelta for the last twenty years.

Giro 09, Tours of old, and more recently 06,07,08.. all had long time trials, and all had a lot of attacking in the mountains by the climbers.

The 2006 TdF does support this at all. FLandis was the best time trialist of the contenders, and he was in great climbing shape. His goal was to win the Tour in the most boring way possible by following others on all the climbs, not taking any chances. Even though he looked to be the strongest on Alpe d'Huez, he held back because he did not need the time. Only his collapse on stage 16 forced him to throw caution to the winds. Fewer time trial kilometers would have forced him to gain time in the mountains instead of riding conservatively until his hand was forced. Also the main contenders were all fairly close to each other in ability.

In 2007 it was a free for all. There was no clear favorite. The main contenders were all excellent climbers. The amount of attacking would have been the same if there were few time trial kilometers.

Again in 2008 the contenders were all closely matched. I don't see that the length of the time trials had anything to do with the amount of attacking. Sastre won the Tour by hiding in the group for the entire Tour except for one big push on the Alpe. Evans thought he could play it safe, follow wheels on the climbs, and make up his losses in the time trials. That was hardly an exciting TDF.

A pattern is emerging here: The more riders who have a shot at winning, the more attacks in the mountains.

Tour 09, Vuelta 09 - the time trials were indecisive, which meant the mountains didn't have a lot of attacks.

That makes absolutely no sense. The riders could not gain time in on each other in the time trials so they decided not to attempt to gain time in the mountains?

It's a simple game of incentives, as you say, we cannot force people to attack, but we can give them incentives. If a climber wants to win the tour, they need to attack and crack the TT specialists to gain time they will lose in the long TTs.

Sure. You will give an incentive to a climber by putting him ten minutes down with two 60km time trials. That will work. In case you have not been paying attention, you might want to check out how much time can be gained by an attack in the mountains. It is not 1980 anymore. Gaining one minute in a stage is a solid gain. Two minutes is huge. WIth only two to three real opportunities per Tour to gain time in the mountains, a rider cannot erase five to six minutes lost in time trials.

 

[soOpOSMthanks!]

alley cat followed by a skid comp.

i kid, i kid.

 

[Anonymous]

BroDeal,

A lot to reply to here.

First thing, I do not want TTT's, as you said, they wiped out half the favourites.

What i've been trying to say is that there needs to be a balance between mountain top finishes and individual time trials. Of course, if there are only 2 or 3 MTFs then two 60km TTs wont work.

My formula from my first post said that I think the ideal situation is 4 MTFs and two 50km TTs. The reason I say this is that it gives BOTH the climbers and the TT guys a chance. By climbers I mean schleck, sastre, valverde, gesink etc, and by TT guys i mean evans, leipheimer (who i sense you dont like), vandevelde etc. The key thing is balance.

I would say, with 4 MTFs, the "climbers" could gain about 1 minute per MTF, and in the two TTs the "TT guys" would gain 2 minuts per TT.

That's four minutes each way!! leading to a close and exciting tour.

I suspect we will never agree on this, but, I'm adamant that two 50k TTs and 4 MTFs (with a few descent finish mountain stages) is the ideal formula to keep al varieties of cyclists with a shot at the podium

 

[Ferminal]

- Have a stage like Super Besse in 08. Finsh on a cat 2, which will not cause fire works but may cause some guys to attack if they are behind and to separate the boys from the girls.

Yes! I loved Super Besse. A stage like that which isn't high mountain or dead flat, it's a great twist to have that ramp in the last 2-3km to cause chaos and see a few time gaps. Kind of need time bonuses though.

How many dead flat sprinter's (Cav) finishes do people think there should be?

 

[auscyclefan94]

That is idiotic. Change the course and you change the types of riders who figure they have a chance of winning. Put the climbers at a big enough disadvantage, and they will write off their GC chances completely to concentrate on stage wins. Put in two 60km time trials and we will get riders like Wiggins and Leecheimer treating the mountains as an exercise in defensive riding. It would be even more boring that this year's Tour.

You cannot force riders to do anything. No time bonuses for stage wins did not force riders to attack. They simply decided that it was not worth expending the energy get on the podium of a stage.

The Giro and Vuelta have consistently showed that very moderate amounts of time trialing combined with steep mountains produces the best GC contest.

You've gotta give the gc guys who can time trial a chance to win the tour. The climbers then will have to attack and the tt guys will have to follow the moves and fight hard which is exciting racing.

 

[BroDeal]

You've gotta give the gc guys who can time trial a chance to win the tour. The climbers then will have to attack and the tt guys will have to follow the moves and fight hard which is exciting racing.

I think capping time trials at somewhere between 25 to 40km, perhaps with one of two ITTs on a non-flat course, strikes a good balance. Once ITTs get past 50km, the climbing specialists lose way too much time.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I think capping time trials at somewhere between 25 to 40km, perhaps with one of two ITTs on a non-flat course, strikes a good balance. Once ITTs get past 50km, the climbing specialists lose way too much time.

Well, if your giving 4 mountain top finshes to the climbers with 1 x 40km flat tt doesn't give much chance for a tt specialist to win to win the tour either as they will lose too much time in the mountains.

 

[Cyclingmodel]

Speaking about TT I think that time trial 2 by 2 like in the former Trophee Baracchi, riders to be selected randomly in a team or even more funny over the all teams would be funny.
I think a Time Trial where no route is knownbefore would also be fun.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

WIth only two to three real opportunities per Tour to gain time in the mountains, a rider cannot erase five to six minutes lost in time trials.

Not with the climbing the way it is now. Thus the need for 10+ mountain stages.

I would say, with 4 MTFs, the "climbers" could gain about 1 minute per MTF, and in the two TTs the "TT guys" would gain 2 minuts per TT.

Not likely. Recall that this year's Tour had three MT finishes, including Ventoux, plus two other "tough" days in the Alps, plus two other mountain stages, and only a handful of seconds were exchanged in the mountains. Go back and watch the Tours in the 90's. Pure climbers would often lose 3+ minutes per 50km TT. Some of them losing over 5 minutes to someone like Indurain.

Well, if your giving 4 mountain top finishes to the climbers with 1 x 40km flat tt doesn't give much chance for a tt specialist to win to win the tour either as they will lose too much time in the mountains.

I could be wrong here, if someone wants to do the actual math, but in the last few years we've been seeing only seconds of change in many mountain stages, not minutes. As I pointed out earlier, even giant HC climbs like Ventoux, Angliru, Zoncolon don't create the huge splits people think they do, or what they did years ago. In this year's Tour, the top 9 guys on Ventoux were all within a minute of each other. The top 23 riders were all within 3 and a half minutes on that day. Last year's Vuelta stage to Angliru was considered brutal, one of the hardest days ever on paper. And even with Contador's blistering attack towards the end, the top 10 riders were all within three minutes.

 

[luckyboy]

Do you think Pantani gave up his GC hopes becoz of long TTs?? I don't.

In 1998, after stage 10, when he was 5 minutes down on Ullrich, he said he would've quit had he won the stage. He also complained about how the parcours constantly favoured TT guys.

 

[rghysens]

I could be wrong here, if someone wants to do the actual math, but in the last few years we've been seeing only seconds of change in many mountain stages, not minutes. As I pointed out earlier, even giant HC climbs like Ventoux, Angliru, Zoncolon don't create the huge splits people think they do, or what they did years ago. In this year's Tour, the top 9 guys on Ventoux were all within a minute of each other. The top 23 riders were all within 3 and a half minutes on that day. Last year's Vuelta stage to Angliru was considered brutal, one of the hardest days ever on paper. And even with Contador's blistering attack towards the end, the top 10 riders were all within three minutes.

on the other hand, in the tour stage to le Grand Bornand this year, the first ten were separated by more than 6 minutes, although it didn't have a mountain top finish. All you need to create big time gaps is several steep climbs, one after another, and the last one not to far from the finish (20-30km at most, depending how difficult the last climb is). The stage to le mont ventoux was basically a flat stage, with a mountain top finish. The stages to Verbier and Arcalis were "rolling" at best. And these two finishes weren't the most difficult you can find (verbier is less than 10km long, Arcalis barely 6.5% steep)

 

[BroDeal]

I would say, with 4 MTFs, the "climbers" could gain about 1 minute per MTF, and in the two TTs the "TT guys" would gain 2 minuts per TT.

That's four minutes each way!! leading to a close and exciting tour.

I suspect we will never agree on this, but, I'm adamant that two 50k TTs and 4 MTFs (with a few descent finish mountain stages) is the ideal formula to keep al varieties of cyclists with a shot at the podium

I don't think these time estimations are realistic. Climbers lose 3 - 4 minutes in 50 - 60K, not two minutes. Expecting that climbers will gain one minute on each of four MTFs is also unrealistic. More typical is that two out of those four MTFs are processions. This is often due to the mild average grades like Arcalis and Verbier this year.

I would like to see one 40km ITT that is relatively flat. And one 25km that has bumps, not mountainous but something that puts a rider like Cancellara at a bit of a disadvantage so the outcome is not known beforehand.

The climbs needs to be steeper.

 

[ggusta]

Put the podium chicks in the nude or in a bikini which makes them look really s-lut-y.

gosh, i thought i was the only one with a filthy imagination. now i feel normal and at home among like minded perverts. uhhhh ...... th-th-thanks ???

 

[luckyboy]

Prologue TTT (20km) normal TT (50km), extremely hard mountain TT (20km - Ventoux? ) and another, hillier TT (30km). Also, find new, harder climbs - there must be some that they haven't explored yet?

And 9 mountain stages, of which at least 5 should be mountain-top finishes.

Ooh, imagine a mountain TTT. Has that been done in any race before?


Start in the north with the TTT prologue, 3 flat, hard, cobbled stages, maybe a hill at the end of one.
Then, rest day - transfer to the Alps for 4 stages, 2/3 mt finishes. Start in the south and move north through the Alps.
3 flat stages through mid-France (Auvergne/Limousin) and put in the hilly TT around here, and then 2 transition/hilly stages moving south.
After stage 13/14, another rest day in Tarbes/Pau/Bayonne/wherever. Then we have 5 mountain stages (3 mt finishes, 1 hilltop town finish like Bologna San Luca in the Giro) in the Pyrenees, and the mountain TT in the middle.
Next up, another (!) rest day as the riders transfer to Brittany for the final 2 stages before Paris, moving from St Malo/Saint-Brieuc to Chartres or somewhere near enough to Paris.
The final day will be a 50km ITT, ending on the Champs Elysees, where Christophe Moreau will be crowned winner of the 2010 TdF, the oldest winner ever in the most exciting TdF ever

And there ends the dream..


Final touch...

gosh, i thought i was the only one with a filthy imagination. now i feel normal and at home among like minded perverts. uhhhh ...... th-th-thanks ???

They should import the girls from the Vuelta

 

[auscyclefan94]

I don't think these time estimations are realistic. Climbers lose 3 - 4 minutes in 50 - 60K, not two minutes. Expecting that climbers will gain one minute on each of four MTFs is also unrealistic. More typical is that two out of those four MTFs are processions. This is often due to the mild average grades like Arcalis and Verbier this year.

I would like to see one 40km ITT that is relatively flat. And one 25km that has bumps, not mountainous but something that puts a rider like Cancellara at a bit of a disadvantage so the outcome is not known beforehand.

The climbs needs to be steeper.

I still think your plan will be too advatageous to a climber.

 

[Boeing]

Time bonuses announced on the night before.No more riding around talking to each other.No more sprinters winning mountain stages. Just a way for them to throw out a really valuable prize.

this is interesting

 

[Big_Blue_Dave]

Rather than have the time bonuses announced the night before, have the stage winner select the time bonus by pressing a button on the podium with a number of different options.

That way the winner chooses his success by chance and creates even more tension after the finish.

 

[avanti]

Keep the tour in France

Every stage must start and finish in France with no more than 50 km of racing in an adjoining country.

 

[usedtobefast]

every stage is a mountian top finish time trial. 3 weeks of that will
separate the humans,from the aliens.

 

[luckyboy]

Christ, I actually planned out the TdF I mentioned above (with a map and everything) this afternoon

I'll post it tomorrow

 

[flicker]

4man nat. teams

Lets' make it interesting and fair 4 man National teams. Forget trade teams. It is Le Tour after all. Even the playing field and bring in some pride.

 

[R.0.t.O]

Of course the riders make the race, there's only so much that the route design can do if the riders are going to be defensive. Almost any route in 09 would have been dull because Contador was clearly the best rider by some distance; Armstrong and Wiggins were purely defensive throughout the road stages; and by midway Andy was more interested in helping Fränk than anything else. I digress...

People that have been to the Tour will probably agree with me that the worst bit is the opening weekend. I would cull the pointless opening ceremony and move the prologue to the Friday evening: you can introduce the star riders to the crowd at the start line. Better still I would put in a 'Super-Special' stage like in WRC rallying: basically two riders side-by-side timed on identical but seperate tracks - rallying have done this on tracks laid over the pitch of football stadia. So bin the opening ceremony and prologue, let's have a tidy spctators' stage, a Super-Special with 80 000 spectators in the Stade de France or Allianz Arena or Wembley or whereever. Then straight on with the road stages on Saturday.

 

[luckyboy]

Click for larger image


STAGE 1 - Roubaix - Lille TTT 30.4 km

STAGE 2 - Lille - St. Quentin 169 km

STAGE 3 - Fourmies - Carignan 177 km

STAGE 4 - Carignan - Verdun 209 km

Rest Day

STAGE 5 - Gap - Pelvo d'Elva 156 km
Colle Dell'Agnello > Pelvo d'Elva

STAGE 6 - Cuneo - St Étienne de Tineé 183 km
Colle Fauniera > Cime de la Bonette

STAGE 7 - Guillestre - Alpe d'Huez 213 km
Col de l'Izoard > Col du Telegraphe > Alpe d'Huez

STAGE 8 - Orelle - Joux Plane 232 km
Col de la Croix de Fer/Glandon > Col de la Colombiere > Col de Joux Plane

STAGE 9 - Lyon - Ambert 178 km

STAGE 10- Issoire - Tulle 199 km

STAGE 11- Tulle - Limoges 169 km

STAGE 12- Aixe-Sur-Vienne - Thiviers TT 50.7 km

STAGE 13- Perigueux - Tonneins 193 km

STAGE 14- Agen - Pau 184 km

Rest Day

STAGE 15- Larrau - Hautacam 151 km
Col de Labays > Hautacam

STAGE 16- Bedous - Aubisque 63 km
Col de l'Aubisque

STAGE 17- Luz-Saint-Saveur - Tourmalet TT 18.2 km
Col du Tourmalet

STAGE 18- Montanuy - Tourmalet 177 km
Col du Portillon > Col de Peyresourde > Col de Peyrefite/d'Azet > Col de l'Aspin
> Col du Tourmalet

STAGE 19- Rouze - Saint Beat 190 km
Port de Pailheres > Col d'Agnes > Col de la Core > Col du Portet d'Aspet > Col de Mente

Rest Day

STAGE 20- Saint-Brieuc - Laval 203 km

STAGE 21- Le Mans - Chartres 191 km

STAGE 22- Epone - Paris Champs TT 42.6 km

3378.9 km


Colle Dell'Agnello (Guillestre) 42km @ 4.1% 9003ft
Pelvo d'Elva No stats 10051ft
Colle Fauniera (Pradleves) 22.4km @ 7.5% 8236ft
Cime de la Bonette (Jausiers) 24km @ 6.6% 9190ft
Col de l'Izoard (Guillestre) 15.9km @ 6.9% 7744ft
Col du Télégraphe (S-M-de-Mau) 11.8km @ 7.3% 5136ft
Alpe d'Huez (Bour d'Osains) 13.2km @ 8.1% 5953ft
Col de la Croix de Fer 30km @ 5.1% 6783ft
Col du Glandon (Croix de Fer) 2.9km
Col de la Colombiere (Grand B) 11.7km @ 5.9% 5290ft
Col du Joux Plane (Samoens) 11.6km @ 8.5% 5546ft
Col de Labays (West) No stats 4431ft
Hautacam 17.3km @ 6.8% 5362ft
Col de l'Aubisque 16.6km @ 7.2% 5605ft
Col du Tourmalet 19km @ 7.4% 6937ft
Col du Portillon (Spanish side) No stats 3634ft
Col de Peyresourde (Bagneres) 15.27km @ 6.1% 5146ft
Col de Peyrefite/d'Azet (Genos) 7.47km @ 8.3% 5182ft
Col de l'Aspin (Arreau) 12km @ 6.5% 4883ft
Col du Tourmalet (S-M de Camp) 17.2km @ 7.4% 6937ft
Port de Pailheres (Mijanes) 10.6km @ 8.2% 6565ft
Col d'Agnes (East side) No stats 5149ft
Col de la Core (Seix) 13.8km @ 6.4% 4575ft
Col du Portet d'Aspet (Audress) 18.1km @ 3.1% 3506ft
Col de Mente (Le Couret) 10.9km @ 6.6% 4424ft

 

[MizunoMX20]

Luckyboy

That would be almost my ideal route of the Tour de France as well!! I admire the work you put in to this and would like to compliment you on it, well done!

Would the TTT from Roubaix partly go over cobblestone? That would be awesome.

You included almost every mythical mountain in France including ones I didn't know they existed, like the Colle Fauniera. That looks like one wicked climb. I also like you included the Colle dell'Agnello, especially the last 20km are very steep, with the last 7km averaging 8,3%. Good find and I think it has been done in the Giro before as well. This summer I hope to go to that part of the Alps (planning to stay in Barcelonette or Saint-Etienne-de-Tinee) and do the Col de la Bonette, Col d'Izoard en Colle dell'Agnello (not all on the same day of course).

I would personally like to see the Col de la Madeleine (from la Chambre) in your route as well, because at 19,1km a 8,0% (!!!) it is in my opinion one of the hardest climbs (if not THE hardest) in France and sometimes a bit overlooked. You could do it after the Glandon/Croix de Fer combo, although it would be tough to get to the Joux Plane from there. Another option would be STAGE 8 - Orelle - Courchevel 148km or STAGE 8 - Orelle - Val Thorens 162km, because then you would have Croix de Fer (30km a 5,1%), Madeleine (19,1km a 8,0%) and either Courchevel (21,8km a 6,5%) or Val Thorens (36km a 5,2% with most of the last 20km averaging over 7%).

In your stage to Alpe d'Huez is a slight mistake I think. Because if you do the Izoard from Guillestre you will get in Briancon after the descent. You would then either have to:

a) take a huge detour (I think through a tunnel of over 30km in length, so that wouldn't be good for the viewers) through Italy of 71km in total to get to the foot of the Telegraph, and then you would also have to do the Galibier straight after the Telegraph, and the stage would be about 204km,

or

b) have to climb the Lautaret from Briancon (which is 27,8km a 3,1% so nothing special) to get to Bourg d'Oisans, and that route would only be 107km, whereas yours is 213km.

So maybe you could explain to me what your idea was?

And here's some info on the climbs you didn't have stats on:
- Col d'Agnes is either 17,6km a 5,2% (from Massat) or 10,2km a 8,1% (from Aulas les Bains).
- Col de Labays can be taken in five different ways, all are around 23km a 4,3%.
- Col de Portillon from Bossost (which is in Spain I think) is 8,6km a 6,8%.

But again, great effort to put this all together!!

Cheers.

 

[Avoriaz]

Instead of letting them roll down a ramp at the start of a TT make them go up a ramp from a standing start.

Le Mans style start for the TTT