'Suspect' performances

[Mrs John Murphy]

Oh, I am so cool.

Yes, I would demand same standards about other riders. I have not attacked Vinukorov or italians or spaniards or etc. And I am myself from Eastern Europe, so dont patronize me and dont put your own prejudices in my mouth. Thank you.

LOL. Get over yourself. This is a thread for flagging up performances we think are suspect. I think that Cuddles' performances are suspect and I think he gets an easy ride from the media and many fans by virtue of his nationality. A luxury that is not afforded to others.

Patronize you? No, I suggested that you have double standards. I see nothing to alter that fact. And being from Eastern Europe is relevant in what way?

Nick777 - and the change in his style of riding? His sudden ability to attack and bridge with no problems. Why the sudden change?

In some ways Cuddles' performances look more suspect because of the nonsense that has been written and spoken about him by the media. If they hadn't kept on excusing his defensiveness and wheelsucking for all these years and telling us how he is always on the edge, blaming his defensiveness on lack of team support, then it wouldn't stick out like such a sore thumb when he starts attacking despite having no team support (the very reason he was supposed to be unable to attack).

 

[Martin318is]

So will you be demanding the same standards of evidence against all other riders or just where Cuddles is concerned?

For all riders, evidence is required. A good performance does not constitute evidence, no matter how you try to twist it. The only difference in treatment that Vino got to any other rider was that he had only just come back from a PROVEN doping case and hence was suspicious. I for one however do not believe that he is currently doping.

I'll bet that if Cuddles were Cuddlesov, and was riding how he has been you'd be first in the queue to cry doper. But because he is one those brave Aussie boys, he must be clean and its all down to the 'confidence'.

Actually no. Aussies have doped in the past and at least one has doped recently. They're nothing special in that regard.

Since you bring it up though, if you follow your theory, why no comments about Ignatiev? He has an amazing capacity to go for huge attacking breaks on his own week after week and is generally caught by small margins. (or is it just that there's no evidence?)

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Yes, and my 'evidence' is in what I see before me when I watch Cuddles ride and when I compare him to how he has raced previously. I then compare the improvement in his form with other riders who made similar improvements in form. The leitmotif of similar riders making similar improvements is doping.

I also base my evidence on reading the press, listening to ES etc and the double standards of the likes of Dave Harmon when talking about Evans or any other English speaker, compared to non-English speaking riders.

If you don't like my view then fine, but don't give me the red herring of 'no evidence'. We aren't in a court of law, we are on a discussion forum, in a thread about suspicious performances.

As for Russian riders - Ivanov is much more dirty. Between 2002-2007 wins nothing other than a stage in the TOB and then all of a sudden at 33-34 he is a classics monster. Almost as laughable as sell-out Horner suddenly hitting form at 38.

 

[Martin318is]

You do realise that you are at the moment making a strong argument for the suggestion that the reason all these formerly (nearly man) riders are suddenly improving is that the big dopers aren't doping so much anymore?

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Not sure how you've come to that conclusion, if anything I am suggesting that Cuddles is on a stronger program than before which is why he is better than before. BMC - crap team, good drugs.

We know from Fuentes that he offered a range of drugs depending on your budget. Cuddles might well have finally cashed some cheques and got himself onto a top-class doping program. Or he might be pulling a Floyd.

 

[Martin318is]

Ah.. I see. You've been on forums so long that you have blurred the line between reality and the stuff that someone said someone else said that some guy heard in a pub.

So now you are suggesting that Cadel and all the other riders you have listed have all simultaneously found a better supply and system? Wow there muyst be a new doctor/gyno out there!

So we end up with two possible answers and neither have enough information to make it fact. Don't let that stop you from claiming your point of view is the factual one though. If it makes you happy.

Myself, I don't know if Cadel is doping or not (and I am not particularly a fan anyway). What I do know is there is nowhere near any useful evidence to actually state that he is at this point.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Tell me, do you read what people write? I can only conclude that either you can't read, or you choose not to read.

Did I claim anything as fact? No, I gave my opinion on performances I think are suspicious and why I hold those opinions. And I find my explanation a much better explanation for the improvement in Cuddles' form than yours.

Now, rather than repeat myself, I suggest that you go back and re-read my posts. Perhaps a friend can help you. Once you have mastered reading and comprehension, then maybe we can try again...

 

[dickwrench]

This thread evolved into personal attacks which is sad. I think Cadel is clean and he has never tested positive to prove anything else. He has no rumors and he has been strong a long time. This Mrs. John Murphy is no lady and if she is I know who runs the roost in that family. Old John must be a wimp.

Back in the early 2000s Cadel would place high in races against dopers like Tyler and he almost beat Contadope in 2007 so that proves he is a big talent with a big engine. Plus he was champion mountain bike racer so the dumb race in the mud yesterday was up his ally. This is the first I have heard of this nickname Cuddles. Where does it come from?

 

[Martin318is]

Tell me, do you read what people write? I can only conclude that either you can't read, or you choose not to read.

Did I claim anything as fact? No, I gave my opinion on performances I think are suspicious and why I hold those opinions. And I find my explanation a much better explanation for the improvement in Cuddles' form than yours.

Now, rather than repeat myself, I suggest that you go back and re-read my posts. Perhaps a friend can help you. Once you have mastered reading and comprehension, then maybe we can try again...

My explanation is equally as (un)likely and (in)defensible as yours but I'll leave you alone to your belief that your explanation is anything other than a combination of wild speculation and clear personality based bias. (My explanation is exactly that too)

Look there is no need for you to start crying.
Clearly you are offended by my posts or you would have addressed them rather than attacking my intelligence.

I'll leave you to it.

 

[Nick777]

LOL. Get over yourself. This is a thread for flagging up performances we think are suspect. I think that Cuddles' performances are suspect and I think he gets an easy ride from the media and many fans by virtue of his nationality. A luxury that is not afforded to others.

Patronize you? No, I suggested that you have double standards. I see nothing to alter that fact. And being from Eastern Europe is relevant in what way?

Nick777 - and the change in his style of riding? His sudden ability to attack and bridge with no problems. Why the sudden change?

In some ways Cuddles' performances look more suspect because of the nonsense that has been written and spoken about him by the media. If they hadn't kept on excusing his defensiveness and wheelsucking for all these years and telling us how he is always on the edge, blaming his defensiveness on lack of team support, then it wouldn't stick out like such a sore thumb when he starts attacking despite having no team support (the very reason he was supposed to be unable to attack).

A while ago, someone on this site (can't remember who) decided to de-bunk the myth that Evans never attacked. They posted a list (with links) to back it up. I will try to find it. There is no difference in his style, the only difference now is that he has won (a whopping) 2 races.

 

[Nick777]

Nurse, send in the screens.

Nice to see that Cuddles has his own brand of demented fanboy and they aren't just the domain of the Uniballer.

The Schlecks, Dertie, Menchov etc have been talked about elsewhere. No need to go over old ground.

So will you be demanding the same standards of evidence against all other riders or just where Cuddles is concerned? Where were you when Vino was being attacked post LBL? Were you demanding evidence then? or do you only demand evidence when it suits you, or when your hero is being criticised?

The evidence is in the change in Cuddles' riding and results, the evidence is in his team history. Amazing all these riders coming into the best form of their lives at 32+: Cuddles, Vino, Horner, Poison Dwarf, Garzelli, FP.

If you want to point the finger at those riders, or at whoever you want then go for it.

I'll bet that if Cuddles were Cuddlesov, and was riding how he has been you'd be first in the queue to cry doper. But because he is one those brave Aussie boys, he must be clean and its all down to the 'confidence'.

As an Aussie, I have my doubts about some riders, for sure.
There is an Aussie riding in this years Giro who I know has been doped. Not sure if he still is, because he has done F#$% all since his best season about 6 years ago.
I know that one of our Olympic gold medallists of the last 20 years was doped.
Cadel doesn't have the same smell about him. His performances have never changed, despite you thinking they have.

 

[Nick777]

For all riders, evidence is required. A good performance does not constitute evidence, no matter how you try to twist it. The only difference in treatment that Vino got to any other rider was that he had only just come back from a PROVEN doping case and hence was suspicious. I for one however do not believe that he is currently doping.



Actually no. Aussies have doped in the past and at least one has doped recently. They're nothing special in that regard.

Since you bring it up though, if you follow your theory, why no comments about Ignatiev? He has an amazing capacity to go for huge attacking breaks on his own week after week and is generally caught by small margins. (or is it just that there's no evidence?)

If Ignatiev is suspect, then he has been suspect since he was 16. I saw him at the world junior track championships in Melbourne, and he was a class above. Olympic champion at 18... pretty talented.

 

[Ferminal]

As an Aussie, I have my doubts about some riders, for sure.
There is an Aussie riding in this years Giro who I know has been doped. Not sure if he still is, because he has done F#$% all since his best season about 6 years ago.
I know that one of our Olympic gold medallists of the last 20 years was doped.
Cadel doesn't have the same smell about him. His performances have never changed, despite you thinking they have.

Hey... Be nice to Cookie!

 

[Trev_S]

Some people are forgetting or overlooking one tiny little thing.
In the past years Evans was being beaten by proven dopers.
Now some of those dopers are back and Evans can now beat them.
How often has it been said in threads that the likes of Basso & Vino are not the riders they were pre doping ban.
Wouldn't it just seem logical that those who have returned are more likely to be a.) being more extra cautious and using less product.
or
b.) not using anything.

either way their levels have dropped which makes Evans as being more competitive or better.

 

[BikeCentric]

Some people are forgetting or overlooking one tiny little thing.
In the past years Evans was being beaten by proven dopers.
Now some of those dopers are back and Evans can now beat them.
How often has it been said in threads that the likes of Basso & Vino are not the riders they were pre doping ban.
Wouldn't it just seem logical that those who have returned are more likely to be a.) being more extra cautious and using less product.
or
b.) not using anything.

either way their levels have dropped which makes Evans as being more competitive or better.

You're absolutely right Basso's level has dropped since coming back but Vino looks to me as strong as he ever was (so far). We'll have to see how the rest of the Giro and Tour go for him however.

 

[bianchigirl]

I share this dilemma - for years we've been told that Evans can only do as much as he can do, he's on the rivet, in the red, barely able to hang on to the wheel (and boy doe3s he love to suck on a wheel) because he is clean.

Now he's riding known dopers off his wheel with ease and even sprinting for bonus seconds. Now, are the dopers suddenly clean (including the ones who've never been caught) or has a 30+ year o;d decided that, for one last throw of the dice, he might as well give it a go because if they catch him (the World Champ? Unlikely) he simply retires.

I've heard this 'jersey gives you wings' (and I thought that was red bull) argument time and time again to explain the unlikely TTing performance of Pantani in the MR/MJ for example. Didn't buy it then and don't buy it now.

 

[Nick777]

I share this dilemma - for years we've been told that Evans can only do as much as he can do, he's on the rivet, in the red, barely able to hang on to the wheel (and boy doe3s he love to suck on a wheel) because he is clean.

Now he's riding known dopers off his wheel with ease and even sprinting for bonus seconds. Now, are the dopers suddenly clean (including the ones who've never been caught) or has a 30+ year o;d decided that, for one last throw of the dice, he might as well give it a go because if they catch him (the World Champ? Unlikely) he simply retires.

I've heard this 'jersey gives you wings' (and I thought that was red bull) argument time and time again to explain the unlikely TTing performance of Pantani in the MR/MJ for example. Didn't buy it then and don't buy it now.

You should actually watch cycling sometimes.

 

[rata de sentina]

Now, rather than repeat myself, I suggest that you go back and re-read my posts. Perhaps a friend can help you. Once you have mastered reading and comprehension, then maybe we can try again...

Another sockpuppet rears its' ugly head. Launches an intemperate diatribe in an incoherent stream of unconsciousness style and then berates its' interlocutors for losing the plot and failing reading comprehension. Classic.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

My explanation is equally as (un)likely and (in)defensible as yours but I'll leave you alone to your belief that your explanation is anything other than a combination of wild speculation and clear personality based bias. (My explanation is exactly that too)

Look there is no need for you to start crying.
Clearly you are offended by my posts or you would have addressed them rather than attacking my intelligence.

I'll leave you to it.

If anyone is in tears at the moment it is you. You got very upset because I expressed an opinion that you didn't like. I attacked your intelligence because you seem to have not read properly what I have written. You are holding a one-person argument and I am at a loss to work out how you have come to the conclusions you have done.

If you don't like people making accusations, then I suggest that you avoid this thread. It obviously upsets you. I find it amusing that you take criticism of Cuddles so personally.

It's just an opinion about a rider on an internet discussion board. No need for you and the Cuddles' fanboys to have a collective heart attack.

BG - none of the explanations for Cuddles improving really add up. Confidence - well we've heard that for everyone from Riis, to Rasmussen. Nothing to lose - well that was what they said about Landis. Gradual improvement...

It amusing to note that the anti-Vino protests have died down since Cuddles has started to beat him. 'Clean' rider beats notorious dope fiend. Something of a tricky problem. When Vino wins it means that Vino is back on the hot sauce, when Cuddles wins, it is because of his new found confidence...

Swap the roles in this race around and what would the reaction have been if it had been Vino bridging and then outsprinting Cuddles - would it have been a 'brilliant, fantastic ride' in the eyes of Harmon and the Cuddles fans, or would it have been 'unbelievable'...

 

[Von Mises]

Patronize you? No, I suggested that you have double standards. I see nothing to alter that fact.

Wow, when did your opinion became the fact?

Reading your whining about Evans, you actually don´t have anything concrete to hold against him. If you talk about other riders, you can mention Schlecks car boots, Ferrari or Fuentes or amigo de birillo (it was speculated to be FSchleck, Lombardi or even Basso himself, not Sastre). So, when it comes down to Evans, you have nothing similar to hold against. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. And you are the one who is complaining about double standards?

At the end we have to relay on your eagle eye, what detects doping if cyclist who have finisehd 2nd at FW, comes 1st...


Yeah, good analysis mate, keep up the good work.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Physician arise and heal thyself. Look, its not my fault that you are a hypocrite and a crybaby.

I must have missed the meeting where you decided what 'evidence' is acceptable and what is not. I must have missed the meeting where no one was allowed to question the improvement in Cuddles' performance.

The evidence is what I see before me. I see a doped up Cuddles and a whiny Von Mises getting their knickers in a twist because someone has dared to have a negative opinion of their boy Cuddles.

Did you actually read the first post in this thread? Rides you consider to be suspicious.

Either the improvement in Cuddles' performance is suspicious, or all the excuses given to explain why he never attacked were ********. It's one or the other.

Oh and Sastre was suggested at the time as Amigo.

Now, wipe your eyes and go and read some of the Cuddles-love-in threads. I am sure you'll feel a lot better.

 

[santacruz]

Cadel doped in this Giro? I don't think so.. I think Vino is doped out of his mind and using every last bit of his will power not to tear off the front and gain 30 minutes on the rest of the contenders. Look at his big ol' **** chin, that guy has morals, he doesn't dope.

 

[squired]

How about someone who has arrived on the scene and seems to have been too good for a first year pro? Peter Sagan.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

How about someone who has arrived on the scene and seems to have been too good for a first year pro? Peter Sagan.

He's almost as dodgy as Richie Porte

 

[Martin318is]

...

I'm so sorry, I knew you were troubled but I didn't realise that what I had written was going to keep you awake crying all night.

Its a shame as you clearly failed to read my post properly (ironic eh?)
See below:

My explanation is equally as (un)likely and (in)defensible as yours but I'll leave you alone to your belief that your explanation is anything other than a combination of wild speculation and clear personality based bias. (My explanation is exactly that too)