Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

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Cookster15

Cookster15

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Krzysztof_O said:
Pogacar dropped Vingegaard twice during this Tour. What are you talking about? Still, I agree that Vinge didn't have any bad day. He was very strong all the time (even if his form fluctuated a bit) and there's really no way to put substantial time into him. Even if Pog had been strong all the time he would've still lost time during the TT.

As for 2021 Vinge didn't lose 5 minutes before Rog crash, lol. He (and everybody else) was annihilated by Pog in the Alps (losing 4 minutes in 2 stages). He had a crash that made it more difficult for him surely but it's also true that Pog had a crash during Loze stage (and in Liege), which could have affected his racing as well. That's unfortunately part of cycling.
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Yes, Vinge lost that time fair and square on stages 8 and 9. Here is stage 8 - Vinge lost about 3 1/2 minutes to Pog on that stage. What is obvious though is Vinge is on another level now compared to 2021 when he first announced himself.

Tour de France 2021 Stage 8 results

Tour de France 2021 Stage 8 from Oyonnax to Le Grand-Bornand was won by Dylan Teuns before Ion Izagirre and Michael Woods. Tadej PogaÄar was leading the general classification.
www.procyclingstats.com www.procyclingstats.com

Lest we forget.
 
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RobertCrawley

RobertCrawley

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SHAD0W93 said:
Vinge only gained 12 seconds or whatever it was in the TT against Pog through the whole race and would have lost by 1-2 mins instead of over 5. Vinge wasn’t the Vinge we saw in 2022 yet. He was in the Landa role except when he was freed the next year, he was actually free.

Further, Pog dropped Vinge twice this past race.
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That's why I specified that it was being dropped on a mountain. I wasn't counting the sprints at the end for bonus seconds, which Pog will always win. Being dropped on a mountain is where the Tour is usually won and lost.

If it was Jonas' only job to stay on Pog's wheel in 2021 and to drop him when the time was right on a mountain, I think he *might" have three and not two Tour wins. But of course it's all speculation.

Great point by Rob5091 about cobbles. Pog is clearly superior on those type routes.
 
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SHAD0W93

SHAD0W93

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RobertCrawley said:
That's why I specified that it was being dropped on a mountain. I wasn't counting the sprints at the end for bonus seconds, which Pog will always win. Being dropped on a mountain is where the Tour is usually won and lost.

If it was Jonas' only job to stay on Pog's wheel in 2021 and to drop him when the time was right on a mountain, I think he *might" have three and not two Tour wins. But of course it's all speculation.

Great point by Rob5091 about cobbles. Pog is clearly superior on those type routes.
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But Vinge was dropped, twice. One time he had to limit the damage and the other he came back after keeping the gap consistent. Though yes, it’s been since 2021 that Vinge has actually lost a lot of time from the drop instead of 30 seconds.

The plus side Vinge has is his team with Kuss and WVA always have him covered. UAE doesn’t have a WVA type of rider and Kuss could be matched with Adam or Ayuso maybe. Meaning those two have to be dropped as well.
 
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CyclistAbi

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In my opinion it's an intriguing choice. As Vuelta win this year should be up there with the Tour win. Everybody will be there. On the other hand you will need rather fresh legs. Or the chance to win will be slim. But then again the chances to win Vuelta 2023 are slim anyway. For everybody.
 
bNator

bNator

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Cookster15 said:
Yes, Vinge lost that time fair and square on stages 8 and 9. Here is stage 8 - Vinge lost about 3 1/2 minutes to Pog on that stage. What is obvious though is Vinge is on another level now compared to 2021 when he first announced himself.

Tour de France 2021 Stage 8 results

Tour de France 2021 Stage 8 from Oyonnax to Le Grand-Bornand was won by Dylan Teuns before Ion Izagirre and Michael Woods. Tadej PogaÄar was leading the general classification.
www.procyclingstats.com www.procyclingstats.com

Lest we forget.
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There’s a big difference between that stage (stage 8 in TDF 2021) and this year’s Loze - being that Pog went solo and put 3,5 minutes to everyone not just Vinge while Vinge this year had company that he didn’t (couldn’t) drop during the entire climb.
 
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bNator

bNator

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RobertCrawley said:
That's why I specified that it was being dropped on a mountain. I wasn't counting the sprints at the end for bonus seconds, which Pog will always win. Being dropped on a mountain is where the Tour is usually won and lost.

If it was Jonas' only job to stay on Pog's wheel in 2021 and to drop him when the time was right on a mountain, I think he *might" have three and not two Tour wins. But of course it's all speculation.

Great point by Rob5091 about cobbles. Pog is clearly superior on those type routes.
Click to expand...
You said Pog never dropped Vinge on a mountain. TDF 2021 stage 8 was a mountain and stage 9 was a mountain. And this year’s stage 6 was a mountain as well. It was not a sprint. It was 3 km out compared to last years Granon which was 4 km out. Admittedly, Vinge didn’t get dropped spectacularly this year as opposed to TDF 2021 stage 8 where he was… There was no way whatsoever Vinge was about to win that Tour. He never dropped Pog and made it stick while Pog dropped Vinge 4,5 minutes worth of time. In the mountain… Pog was closer to winning last year’s Tour than Vinge was to winning 2021 edition. Lost time before Roglic crash included. That’s what makes your claim (Pog is lucky Vinge didn’t win 3 Tours) so invalid…

But the point is - this year’s Loze was not so much a spectacular solo performance by Jonas. As explained in my earlier post, he had company. It was more a fluke from Pog. I think the spectacular part this year from Jonas were stage 5 and TT.
 
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Krzysztof_O

Krzysztof_O

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To me it seems Pog is more and more tired after subsequent Tours.
1) In 2020 he took part in the WC soon after the Tour and also was 3rd in Liege (his winning chances buried by Ala).
2) In 2021 he took part in the Olympics soon after the Tour (he wasn't at his best but still won the bronze).
3) In 2022 he took part in classica San Sebastian after the Tour and wasn't a factor (too gassed).
4) In 2023 he doesn't take part in any race soon after the Tour and has no clear plans. WC are in question.
Maybe it's mental as it's easier after winning the race. Or maybe those classic campaigns do cost a lot. Or maybe he's the first old & washed up white jersey winner.
 
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kn0s

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bNator said:
You said Pog never dropped Vinge on a mountain. TDF 2021 stage 8 was a mountain and stage 9 was a mountain. And this year’s stage 6 was a mountain as well. It was not a sprint. It was 3 km out compared to last years Granon which was 4 km out. Admittedly, Vinge didn’t get dropped spectacularly this year as opposed to TDF 2021 stage 8 where he was… There was no way whatsoever Vinge was about to win that Tour. He never dropped Pog and made it stick while Pog dropped Vinge 4,5 minutes worth of time. In the mountain… Pog was closer to winning last year’s Tour than Vinge was to winning 2021 edition. Lost time before Roglic crash included. That’s what makes your claim (Pog is lucky Vinge didn’t win 3 Tours) so invalid…

But the point is - this year’s Loze was not so much a spectacular solo performance by Jonas. As explained in my earlier post, he had company. It was more a fluke from Pog. I think the spectacular part this year from Jonas were stage 5 and TT.
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What? Jonas did the Loze fast as f. He did not go up with the others, he came from behind.
 
D

dazaau

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CyclistAbi said:
In my opinion it's an intriguing choice. As Vuelta win this year should be up there with the Tour win. Everybody will be there. On the other hand you will need rather fresh legs. Or the chance to win will be slim. But then again the chances to win Vuelta 2023 are slim anyway. For everybody.
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Vuelta is never up their with a tour win. Pog is stuffed after the tour. Makes sense to skip the Vuelta, even more so now that Jonas is going.
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

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Krzysztof_O said:
To me it seems Pog is more and more tired after subsequent Tours.
1) In 2020 he took part in the WC soon after the Tour and also was 3rd in Liege (his winning chances buried by Ala).
2) In 2021 he took part in the Olympics soon after the Tour (he wasn't at his best but still won the bronze).
3) In 2022 he took part in classica San Sebastian after the Tour and wasn't a factor (too gassed).
4) In 2023 he doesn't take part in any race soon after the Tour and has no clear plans. WC are in question.
Maybe it's mental as it's easier after winning the race. Or maybe those classic campaigns do cost a lot. Or maybe he's the first old & washed up white jersey winner.
Click to expand...
There's your price for heavier and heavier spring schedule and a suboptimal Tour prep
 
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Nick2413

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CyclistAbi said:
If Pogi would participate this year then the one winning Vuelta, that would be perceived as the most prestigious GT win of all GT wins this season.
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The competition would be stiffer than Tour on paper but almost none of these riders had this as their A race this year and Vinge/Pog would be coming in at 80%, and the team support as well. It would be more comparable to a stacked Paris Nice, which showed us jack this year.
 
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CyclistAbi

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bNator said:
Not a chance I’m afraid. ..
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With Pogi included it would be bigger race then Tour was this year. In regard to the field. And on top of that the route is proper too.

Nick2413 said:
The competition would be stiffer than Tour on paper but almost none of these riders had this as their A race this year and Vinge/Pog would be coming in at 80%, and the team support as well. It would be more comparable to a stacked Paris Nice, which showed us jack this year.
Click to expand...

I don't buy this plan B talks anymore, when it comes to Vuelta. Just like the idea of only kids targeting it that was spread in the past couple of seasons. Such talks don't make much sense anymore.

Bottom line. If everybody is there to win it and the route is good. Then it's plan A and a prestigious GT to win. It's due to this condition people tend to rate the Tour higher. And this year we have such conditions, or better, at Vuelta.
 
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Nick2413

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CyclistAbi said:
With Pogi included it would be bigger race then Tour was this year. In regard to the field. And on top of that the route is proper too.



I don't buy this plan B talks anymore, when it comes to Vuelta. Just like the idea of only kids targeting it that was spread in the past couple of seasons. Such talks don't make much sense anymore.

Bottom line. If everybody is there to win it and the route is good. Then it's plan A and a prestigious GT to win. It's due to this condition people tend to rate the Tour higher. And this year we have such conditions, or better, at Vuelta.
Click to expand...
If Vingegaard doesn’t win by 8+ minutes then it will not be close to Tour level competition. We will see.
 
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