Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

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bNator

bNator

Apr 14, 2021
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Andy schleck said:
If he was mentally destroyed, it was vingegaard that destroyed him mentally. Stop with the excuses, matxin already told that vingegaard was simply better.
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Do you think being destroyed mentally is somehow better than “being worse” - whatever that means?

Myself, I think being destroyed mentally is way worse. One can always come up with a better physical form next year. The pattern of not being good at damage limitation due to motivational breakdowns (or mental destruction if you will) is much more difficult to overcome IMO.

But I can see where this is all coming from. It’s about the “real” difference between them based on form alone. Is it 7 minutes or is it just 3 minutes? I think it’s irrelevant as it always depends on circumstance. For instance - the difference between Vingegaard and the rest of the field would be much smaller if there was no Pog in the race. Because Vinge would sooner or later start to protect his lead instead of attacking for no real benefit.

But yeah - the real difference is of course closer to 3 minutes than 7. Which is still a lot and more than enough to comfortably win many future Tours if things remain unchanged…

What Pog really needs to do is improve on his damage limitation. He must become more like Rogla who even in his worst of days will not lose more than a minute…
 
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iBanesto

iBanesto

Jul 29, 2023
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bNator said:
Do you think being destroyed mentally is somehow better than “being worse” - whatever that means?

Myself, I think being destroyed mentally is way worse. One can always come up with a better physical form next year. The pattern of not being good at damage limitation due to motivational breakdowns (or mental destruction if you will) is much more difficult to overcome IMO.

But I can see where this is all coming from. It’s about the “real” difference between them based on form alone. Is it 7 minutes or is it just 3 minutes? I think it’s irrelevant as it always depends on circumstance. For instance - the difference between Vingegaard and the rest of the field would be much smaller if there was no Pog in the race. Because Vinge would sooner or later start to protect his lead instead of attacking for no real benefit.

But yeah - the real difference is of course closer to 3 minutes than 7. Which is still a lot and more than enough to comfortably win many future Tours if things remain unchanged…

What Pog really needs to do is improve on his damage limitation. He must become more like Rogla who even in his worst of days will not lose more than a minute…
Click to expand...

But the problem is Roglic's worst days (plural) ends up in a crash.

:laughing:
 
Andy schleck

Andy schleck

Jul 18, 2020
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bNator said:
Do you think being destroyed mentally is somehow better than “being worse” - whatever that means?

Myself, I think being destroyed mentally is way worse. One can always come up with a better physical form next year. The pattern of not being good at damage limitation due to motivational breakdowns (or mental destruction if you will) is much more difficult to overcome IMO.

But I can see where this is all coming from. It’s about the “real” difference between them based on form alone. Is it 7 minutes or is it just 3 minutes? I think it’s irrelevant as it always depends on circumstance. For instance - the difference between Vingegaard and the rest of the field would be much smaller if there was no Pog in the race. Because Vinge would sooner or later start to protect his lead instead of attacking for no real benefit.

But yeah - the real difference is of course closer to 3 minutes than 7. Which is still a lot and more than enough to comfortably win many future Tours if things remain unchanged…

What Pog really needs to do is improve on his damage limitation. He must become more like Rogla who even in his worst of days will not lose more than a minute…
Click to expand...
The difference between the two is 3 minutes, not 7, but pogacar was destroyed mentally in the TT, so in the next day he suffered a lot also mentally.
 
bNator

bNator

Apr 14, 2021
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Peyroteo94 said:
Vingegaard cracked Pogacar in the TT. He was gone mentally and completly lost after the TT.
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Yes. He simply couldn’t have expected that. I read an interview with his GF the morning before TT where she expressed a clear expectation to gain time - the only question seemed to be whether it was 40+ seconds or “only” a couple of seconds. The fact that he lost nearly 2 minutes was a real blow. I mean I was shell shocked and I’m not even involved. Can’t imagine how that must have felt…
 
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Peyroteo94

Peyroteo94

Mar 20, 2022
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18-Valve. (pithy) said:
Gianetti also alluded to that in a post-stage interview, IIRC. That the time loss in the Loze stage was - in part - due to the unexpected mental blow Vingegaard delivered the day before.

I have no idea why some posters ignore the mental aspect. No one is saying that Pog would have won the Tour otherwise.
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People who say Loze was more physical than mental are dellusional. Pogacar lost time to random climbers on Loze.
 
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CyclistAbi

May 29, 2019
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I feel that there was a lot of mental games going on this season in between Pogi and JV. And obviously realization you won't win the race you are competing in can take a toll. Still i don't feel that Pogi lost this Tour edition due to mentally cracking. In that case he wouldn't bounce back in the same race. Visual inspection was enough to tell Pogi is struggling physically. Here we can speculate on why. He could simply be ill or lack of optimal preparation to take a toll or he likely exaggerated by emptying himself in the days prior. In my opinion it's a bit of all.

Still all this doesn't explain the ITT. Where Pogi finished way ahead others and Jonas added a minute and a half into that. This is just something we will need to wait and see if that is sustainable on the long run. Or if it was an one off. For example Vuelta ITT will be interesting.
 
E

ElDesordenado

Jul 20, 2023
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Red Rick said:
Problem with that assertion is that he lost in 2022 as well.

Given the level he displayed between stage 6 and 13 I think the assumption that he would just reach a higher level and would by minutes and minutes to be absurd. His dominance over the rest of the field was the same as it had been in 2022.
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Exactly.
I think if Vingegaard improves even further, Pogacar is done as a Tour winner. It was close for a long time this year, but Vingegaard seemed in control, then crushed Pogacar in the two decisive stages. Same procedure as last year. Vingegaard doesn't have Pogacar's explosivity, and he's boring to watch (in my opinion) with his calculated racing style - but he time trials like Indurain, weighs about the same as Pantani, and has a superior team; what will it take for Pogacar to compete with that? Even with an injury free build up, he'll need to go to another level, and UAE should make the TdF #1 priority both on terms of Pog's racing calendar and who they choose to include in the TdF team
 
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slim charles

slim charles

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I sure hope he doesn't make Tour the only important race in his calendar. But he will have to adjust his preparation.

I agree that Vingegaard is clear favorite for years to come, but I don't think the difference is so big as to be insurmountable.

This year Pogacar hadn't prepared ideally (far from it), and paid the price. Even with full preparation Vingegaard is probably a bit stronger but not so much that it would be impossible to beat him.
 
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ElDesordenado

Jul 20, 2023
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slim charles said:
I sure hope he doesn't make Tour the only important race in his calendar. But he will have to adjust his preparation.

I agree that Vingegaard is clear favorite for years to come, but I don't think the difference is so big as to be insurmountable.

This year Pogacar hadn't prepared ideally (far from it), and paid the price. Even with full preparation Vingegaard is probably a bit stronger but not so much that it would be impossible to beat him.
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We'll see next year I guess. Based on last year's and this year's TdF, there seems to be this pattern of Pogacar being more explosive and gaining some seconds here and there with that - this year about half a minute at most; but Vingegaard is right on his wheel most of the race, is brutal in the time trial (that also happened last year although to a lesser extent), and never has a bad day unlike Pogacar. Maybe UAE could gain something from doing their own version of the Roglic-Vingegaard combo from '22? Guess they sort of tried that this year with Yates, who was great but not a contender for 1st place. Maybe if Ayuso has a big break through? Something to switch things up so we didn't get three more years of Vingegaard following Pogacar's every move the first two weeks, only to bury him later in the race as planned ... Aside from Pogacar having to hit max level, UAE should also race smarter as a team in my opinion.

But I agree, Pogacar is fascinating exactly because of his versatility!
 
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Netserk

Netserk

Apr 30, 2011
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At their best, the difference between the two is way too small for one being a clear favourite over the other a year from now. Even if we assume that neither will improve, or that we re-run the tape from March, I think this year's Tour would be completely open.

Before the Tour, I thought Pogi wouldn't be able to drop Vingegaard in the mountains. Cambasque was maybe down to drafting before his attack, but Puy de Dôme and Joux Plane were both super impressive and better than what he delivered last year. So while his resounding defeat in the ITT and his crack on Loze made him seem a level below Vingegaard, I think his level this year was very encouraging all things considered.

I think both of them will improve their preparations and performances next year, but I see more upside for Pogi. So I think he'll eventually win the Tour again, it's just a question of time.
 
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Red Rick

Red Rick

Feb 20, 2012
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Netserk said:
I think both of them will improve their preparations and performances next year, but I see more upside for Pogi. So I think he'll eventually win the Tour again, it's just a question of time.
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Vingegaard did say he doesn't see himself riding into his mid 30s or something like that.

In reality, I don't think it ever happens 2 years in a row that two top contenders show up in the same shape relative to each other. That said, I also think this parcours was quite friendly to Pogacar.
 
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