Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[sam6]

So now Pogi is a wheelsucker. You got to love the cycling fans. Had to deal with the same *** in Rogličes thread.

Pogi is definitely not a wheelsucker, but he should be. Roglic is a wheelsucker, yes. However, I respect him for it as it is playing to his strengths and doing what gives him the best chance to win. It's him racing smart. Pogi needs to learn to race smarter and, when up against Vingegaard on big mountain stages, should race more like Roglic does

 

[Netserk]

Rogla was the most aggressive contender in the Giro. Pogi wasn't at the Tour.

 

[sam6]

If Remco would win Catalunya 2023, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Remco was the strongest rider in Catalunya 2023, yet he didn't win. This is down to Roglic's tactics. That's not a bad thing, part of what makes cycling so interesting is that the strongest rider doesn't always win. Roglic knew the race situation and raced smart. Vingo is probably going to be the strongest rider in the Tour, yet Pogi can still win if he rides similar tactics to Roglic in Catalunya

 

[Froome]

Remco was the strongest rider in Catalunya 2023, yet he didn't win. This is down to Roglic's tactics. That's not a bad thing, part of what makes cycling so interesting is that the strongest rider doesn't always win. Roglic knew the race situation and raced smart. Vingo is probably going to be the strongest rider in the Tour, yet Pogi can still win if he rides similar tactics to Roglic in Catalunya

Grand Tour is a bit different than a week race. It's more difficult to win a grand tour when you are not the strongest rider for some obvious reasons.

 

[Oldermanish]

For me, it's one of the beautiful things in cycling. I love to see as a winner, the rider who is the most stronger in pure brute force. That's why i like to see van der poel and vingegaard, and these guys, with Remco evenepoel and Pogacar, are the type of riders that bring more fans to cycling.

Well you've posted some names that excel on force and the right opportunity. Matheu has the most obvious show of sheer strength in cyclocross. Pogacar scares everyone, period. Vingegaard requires a team event to showcase his opportunities while Remco and WvA like the same challenge as Pogacar. Most of them need a race with strategy to have that moment that impresses fans.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Pogi is definitely not a wheelsucker, but he should be. Roglic is a wheelsucker, yes. However, I respect him for it as it is playing to his strengths and doing what gives him the best chance to win. It's him racing smart. Pogi needs to learn to race smarter and, when up against Vingegaard on big mountain stages, should race more like Roglic does

Wheelsucking may not be enough though. When Grischa activates the password "show the world who's the strongest" Pogi will also need to attach a hook to Skeletor's bike.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Wheelsucking may not be enough though. When Grischa activates the password "show the world who's the strongest" Pogi will also need to attach a hook to Skeletor's bike.

I wonder if pogi could handle the g forces

 

[Froome]

Wheelsucking may not be enough though. When Grischa activates the password "show the world who's the strongest" Pogi will also need to attach a hook to Skeletor's bike.

There will be a fight between the slovenian homies Roglic and Pogacar to see who of them can get behind Vingegaard and attach a hook to vingegaard's bike. I bet on Roglic to win the "fight" because he has more experience on wheelsucking his opponents.

 

[AmRacer]

There will be a fight between the slovenian homies Roglic and Pogacar to see who of them can get behind Vingegaard and attach a hook to vingegaard's bike. I bet on Roglic to win the "fight" because he has more experience on wheelsucking his opponents.

Vinge will drop them all.
First Remco
Then Rogla
Finally Poggi

 

[Extinction]

It's a good war cry, but of course it is not and cannot be true.

Likewise, it would be ludicrous to demand that all riders should be like Hinault.

Learn to wheelsuck and you last longer. Attack to entertain the dopamine rush of some anonymous fans and you will likely fare into obliviou.

Well you have to be a Hinault, a monster, to attack as he did and get his results. Of course, the sport has radically changed (for the worse) since his era, but Pogacar is of that calibre, so the panache of yore is still possibile. Whereas learning to wheelsuck only results in monotonous, negative racing, doesn't extend one's career, but only results in the calculated fiasco of contemporary cycling. Thank God we now have Pogacar, Evenepoel, MVDP, WVA and Vingegaard to rekindle the fire.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So Rogla vs three brute force attackers it is then.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Well you have to be a Hinault, a monster, to attack as he did and get his results. Of course, the sport has radically changed (for the worse) since his era, but Pogacar is of that calibre, so the panache of yore is still possibile. Whereas learning to wheelsuck only results in monotonous, negative racing, doesn't extend one's career, but only results in the calculated fiasco of contemporary cycling. Thank God we now have Pogacar, Evenepoel, MVDP, WVA and Vingegaard to rekindle the fire.

I seriously doubt the sport has radically changed for worse. Or for better.

How can you even have an account for that?

What we know is that Hinault raced in the last days of an era that was shifting into more scientific and capital intensive approaches. Television, sponsors, radios, nutrition have all domesticated the random factors where past attack strategies thrived. Of course cycling is less "free" now but that was the price of spreading it to wider audiences and securing sponsors investments in tangible results. But that tendency is here to stay. Soon we will have live glucose monitors or instant power meters.

All in all, I refuse to equate wheelsucking with negative racing. It might be boring to watch but it just means the levels are higher for everyone.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I didn't mean specifically you. More as in people care less about wheelsucking if it's the rider they are rooting for.

Ah yes, Roglic is no wheelsucker, we've seen that in Catalunya last year.

Did you watch the Vuelta 2023? Or the Giro? Did you notice who struck first blood in both those GTs on the road? Did you watch the Vuelta 2021, when Roglic nearly lost it all going on a YOLO attack on hat Christian Vandevelde was criticizing (rightfully, as it turned out)? How about when he joined Bernal on a long range attack, working with him equally as you demand, then dropping him from 7km out?

The times you criticize most are when he was riding in a position of weakness or uncertainty. Recovering from surgery and up against a strong rival, recovering from a crash, etc., with the possible exception of Tour 2020, when it is unclear how much the bad Dauphine crash impacted him. However, many are quick to excuse Pogi’s collapse at the end of the 2023 Tour based on his crash a few weeks earlier, so perhaps that also explains Roglic’s collapse.

All in all, I agree Roglic is a more conservative, tactical rider than the more watt monster YOLOers Remco, Vingegaard, MvDP, and Pogi, but calling him “pathetic” is childish or misinformed.

Lastly, Remco has made several comments to the press to the effect that he needs to race more conservatively to win a GT. If you watched the 2022 Vuelta, you saw it in action. And Pogi is far from above a good ol’ sit and kick.

Lol, no one is saying Roglic shouldn't sprint. Just take a turn.

@Netserk covered this pretty thoroughly, but you should never take a turn for the sake of taking a turn; you should do it for a purpose. That purpose could be gaining time on rivals, but in this case, Remco was the only true rival. It could also be nurturing an alliance, but again Remco and Roglic were on a season long collision course as rivals. You guys complain that Roglic only won because of his strategy, and then you bash him for his strategy. It doesn’t seem reasonable to expect someone to take a loss to show panache.

 

[SHAD0W93]

How about when he joined Bernal on a long range attack, working with him equally as you demand, then dropping him from 7km out?

While I agree with everything else, he didn’t start helping Bernal until the descent was over and knew they were going to stay away and he’d gain a lot of time. Which again gaining time was to his benefit compared to the situation that is being argued. He was already in the lead in Catalunya so had no reason to work as Evenepoel was behind. That’s the perks of being in the lead.

 

[Oldermanish]

Well you have to be a Hinault, a monster, to attack as he did and get his results. Of course, the sport has radically changed (for the worse) since his era, but Pogacar is of that calibre, so the panache of yore is still possibile. Whereas learning to wheelsuck only results in monotonous, negative racing, doesn't extend one's career, but only results in the calculated fiasco of contemporary cycling. Thank God we now have Pogacar, Evenepoel, MVDP, WVA and Vingegaard to rekindle the fire.

Hinault famously sat on Lemond's wheel and was gifted the Alpe d' Huez victory by his teammate. This after creating a rift within the team and attacking the GC leader, Mr. Greg L. The appearances were of happy teammates collaborating in a Hollywood victory. Every Hero has sat on a wheel until the towing rider became annoyed and changed tactics. That is Every Rider. You don't get a thank you for being stupid enough to tow another to a victory unless it's a paid teammate. Thank God for great riders but every one of them know how to sit a wheel. You just don't know how to quit feeding the trolls. Get it....they're trolling.

 

[Berniece]

All in all, I agree Roglic is a more conservative, tactical rider than the more watt monster YOLOers Remco, Vingegaard, MvDP, and Pogi, but calling him “pathetic” is childish or misinformed.

Pathetic is indeed a bit much. He rides to his strengths, and in his case that is wheelsucking.

 

[BigCoward]

Every video of him attacking shows him with 8 motors in front of him.

Struggling to stay ahead of him.

 

[Blanco]

While I agree with everything else, he didn’t start helping Bernal until the descent was over and knew they were going to stay away and he’d gain a lot of time. Which again gaining time was to his benefit compared to the situation that is being argued. He was already in the lead in Catalunya so had no reason to work as Evenepoel was behind. That’s the perks of being in the lead.

And that was of course 100% right decision, just like in Catalunya 2023.

 

[Peter von]

Struggling to stay ahead of him.

That's why they had to introduce the ones with three wheels; surely 3 wheels faster than 2.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Pathetic is indeed a bit much. He rides to his strengths, and in his case that is wheelsucking.

The "problem" here is, regardless of the discussions and arguments involved , you will result to wheelsucking in this debate. Mostly due to being stuck in Catalunya 2023. So, as season 2024 is near, all mentioned riders can assert their superiority. And resolve this once and for that race only. As then the next one will come. And ...

 

[acm]

Pathetic is indeed a bit much. He rides to his strengths, and in his case that is wheelsucking.

Don't be so sour, it's getting boring really...

 

[CyclistAbi]

There is one good thing that came out of this debate. Some additional clarity on the probable inter peloton dynamics, at the Tour 2024.

Jonas, only objective to win, anything else than that is a no go.

The Slovenians, not only, but for sure the main objective, crack Jonas. And then to work together at Olympics/Worlds, time for some medals.

Remco, he doesn't discriminate, any of the above, finishing behind, would do.

 

[Elos Anjos]

I wish Remco the best but I saw a video yesterday of him struggling in the Angliru and that doesn't seem like a GT rider to me.

View: https://youtu.be/ZlQ1xzYFLfM?si=qZ96DHzbigL_T1eZ

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

Did he look like a GT rider when he was thrashing Roglic and the others on les Praeres?

 

[Berniece]

Don't be so sour, it's getting boring really...

Sour about what? Catalina? Lol