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Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

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Netserk

Netserk

Apr 30, 2011
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Berniece said:
I didn't mean specifically you. More as in people care less about wheelsucking if it's the rider they are rooting for.

Ah yes, Roglic is no wheelsucker, we've seen that in Catalunya last year.
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While I think the term is both meaningful and fair, I don't think Catalunya was an example of it. In the same way that I don't think Contador wheelsucked Froome in the 2014 Vuelta. He marked his direct rival and defended his lead.

What then is wheelsucking? It's when a rider foregoes cooperation and exploits his opponent's willingness to bring both of them success. That is something else, as it fails if the opponent responds in kind. Defending a lead does not fail if the opponent also defends his position.

I don't have anything against such exploitation, when it is done masterfully. To read your opponent well and to credibly commit to not pulling brings greater richness to races. Rui Costa is a true artisan of the craft. Done by a lesser rider out of inerta in a self-sabotaging manner can be very frustrating though.
 
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Berniece

Berniece

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Netserk said:
While I think the term is both meaningful and fair, I don't think Catalunya was an example of it. In the same way that I don't think Contador wheelsucked Froome in the 2014 Vuelta. He marked his direct rival and defended his lead.

What then is wheelsucking? It's when a rider foregoes cooperation and exploits his opponent's willingness to bring both of them success. That is something else, as it fails if the opponents responds in kind. Defending a lead does not fail if the opponent also defends his position.

I don't have anything against such exploitation, when it is done masterfully. To read your opponent well and to credibly commit to not pulling brings greater richness to races. Rui Costa is a true artisan of the craft. Done by a lesser rider out of inerta in a self-sabotaging manner can be very frustrating though.
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My issue with Roglic started in the 2nd stage. Sure he won the day before and was leader, but it's not like he was already minutes ahead of his direct opponents. When he sat in the wheel of Evenepoel, together with Ciccone, for multiple kilometers, I thought it showed weakness to not take a turn. The guy that won 3 GT's and multiple 1-week stage races didn't want to take a turn. But then sprints for bonus seconds. It's boring, and he's a chicken.

Case could obviously be made that Evenepoel should just stop riding in such a case, which I agree with. But doesn't mean I can still find the actions of Roglic pathetic. Regardless of it getting him victories. Good for him.
 
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how yes no?

May 27, 2019
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Netserk said:
Call it defensive, call it boring, but not keeping your cool and letting your frustration lead to unwise decisions is not bravery. It's just foolish. And I won't demand riders to be fools.
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Exactly. People are in other words wishing for removal of drag/aerodynamics from cycling, so there could be no wheel-sucking... but this is one one the most *** things one could wish, as drag and all strategies formed around that is at core of competitive cycling and why it has any interest for watching compared to guys in controlled conditions trying who can spin the legs the most for longest.
And even if we ignore this... I can hardly imagine something as boring as a rider consistently winning by pure brute force... what could be more boring.

Some riders should learn to race also in categories where they are not 2 levels above competition like in the junior years. You cant cancel race tactics and smarts out of cycling, its stupid to even suggest it, especially when done from or for a position where such skills are lacking.
 
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CyclistAbi

May 29, 2019
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@Berniece

You are a bona fide Remco fan and as Remco didn't win against Rogla, on that race you mention, that is basically what really frustrates you.

We are here for you, as i would feel the same, if the situation would be vice versa. Although, i don't mind all that much any more, that Remco finished ahead on Vuelta 2022. I much rather see Rogla racing against genuine champs, then for that not to be a thing.

Objectively, there is nothing wrong with Rogličes racing style. It's rather specific and i feel that should be cherished.

Otherwise we would only be watching champs racing as seen in that video @scribers posted above. Good gracious, if we would get that instead, as a part of a cycling "super league". So my suggestion would be enjoy it till it last. And besides Rogla stomping Jonas would be dope.
 
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Froome

Froome

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how yes no? said:
Exactly. People are in other words wishing for removal of drag/aerodynamics from cycling, so there could be no wheel-sucking... but this is one one the most *** things one could wish, as drag and all strategies formed around that is at core of competitive cycling and why it has any interest for watching compared to guys in controlled conditions trying who can spin the legs the most for longest.
And even if we ignore this... I can hardly imagine something as boring as a rider consistently winning by pure brute force... what could be more boring.

Some riders should learn to race also in categories where they are not 2 levels above competition like in the junior years. You cant cancel race tactics and smarts out of cycling, its stupid to even suggest it, especially when done from or for a position where such skills are lacking.
Click to expand...
For me, it's one of the beautiful things in cycling. I love to see as a winner, the rider who is the most stronger in pure brute force. That's why i like to see van der poel and vingegaard, and these guys, with Remco evenepoel and Pogacar, are the type of riders that bring more fans to cycling.
 
C

CyclistAbi

May 29, 2019
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Berniece said:
I still would have said Roglic is a wheelsucker. Remco winning or losing Catalunya has nothing to do with it.
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OK, but for sure not with such passion. This, you see, this is something one should respect too. Being so passionate about some lost in sport. You can't move forward if you don't lose from time to time. It's where you learn the most. If you never lose, then you are likely an underachiever anyway.
 
Froome

Froome

Jan 29, 2021
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CyclistAbi said:
@Berniece

You are a bona fide Remco fan and as Remco didn't win against Rogla, on that race you mention, that is basically what really frustrates you.

We are here for you, as i would feel the same, if the situation would be vice versa. Although, i don't mind all that much any more, that Remco finished ahead on Vuelta 2022. I much rather see Rogla racing against genuine champs, then for that not to be a thing.

Objectively, there is nothing wrong with Rogličes racing style. It's rather specific and i feel that should be cherished.

Otherwise we would only be watching champs racing as seen in that video @scribers posted above. Good gracious, if we would get that instead, as a part of a cycling "super league". So my suggestion would be enjoy it till it last. And besides Rogla stomping Jonas would be dope.
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CyclistAbi said:
Realistically Pogi is (much) better on such terrain, then Jonas. So Pogi should give it a go.
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@CyclistAbi every day, you dream with a thousand and one ways of Jonas vingegaard getting dropped by your slovenian homies 😂 you want it so bad!
 
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Elos Anjos

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Brute force has its place in cycling but appreciating cycling just for brute force makes it dumb. A watt contest.
Personality is what mostly brings people to cycling. That is why people loved Nibali and Sagan. That is why Rigoberto Uran has more followers than Bernal and Quintana although these two have a better palmares. This is why Roglic is appreciated, how he bounces back again again after dying.
 
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H

how yes no?

May 27, 2019
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Froome said:
For me, it's one of the beautiful things in cycling. I love to see as a winner, the rider who is the most stronger in pure brute force. That's why i like to see van der poel and vingegaard, and these guys, with Remco evenepoel and Pogacar, are the type of riders that bring more fans to cycling.
Click to expand...
Sure, I also enjoy their acts, but none of them is constantly winning, because if nothing else, they compete against each other.

About "bringing fans to cycling", if you mean those people who can only maybe name 1 or 2 active cyclists and watch an hour of cycling racing in whole year, then it might be true, but I'm not sure "fan" is the right word here.

You're acting like cycling is some lousy sport that urgently needs some sweeteners so it can be enjoyed by the masses, which is underestimating both the sport and the masses.
Like Harlem Globetrotters were better to watch than actual NBA playoff games (but dunks and crazy dribbles are so cool, right).
 
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Froome

Froome

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how yes no? said:
Sure, I also enjoy their acts, but none of them is constantly winning, because if nothing else, they compete against each other.

About "bringing fans to cycling", if you mean those people who can only maybe name 1 or 2 active cyclists and watch an hour of cycling racing in whole year, then it might be true, but I'm not sure "fan" is the right word here.

You're acting like cycling is some lousy sport that urgently needs some sweeteners so it can be enjoyed by the masses, which is underestimating both the sport and the masses.
Like Harlem Globetrotters were better to watch than actual NBA playoff games (but dunks and crazy dribbles are so cool, right).
Click to expand...
Cycling has been great again since 2020 and the arrival of this awesome young riders, the audiences have been increasing in the last years. I enjoy a lot cycling seeing in this era, i very satisfied, i don't think cycling urgently needs something.
 
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Netserk

Netserk

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Berniece said:
Sure, but taking a turn is not being brave or extremely foolish, as a 3 time GT winner. That's just doing your part of the work.
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There is no shared work in that situation, and there is no part that is Rogla's. They were not working (together) in pursuit of an attacker that they all wished to catch.

In a situation of conflicting interests, it makes no sense to appeal to (fictive) common interests.
 
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Berniece

Berniece

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Netserk said:
There is no shared work in that situation, and there is no part that is Rogla's. They were not working (together) in pursuit of an attacker that they all wished to catch.

In a situation of conflicting interests, it makes no sense to appeal to (fictive) common interests.
Click to expand...
The shared goal would be to put other contenders at a distance so that when you have an issue during the rest of the week it won't matter as much since those riders are already far enough behind.
 
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