Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Extinction]

Bernard Hinault: "As long as I breath, I Attack!" Now that's no wheelsucker.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

The problem is also that damn alien ITT by vingo. Has anyone ran an analysis on this year's offerings how much time Vingo can gain on Pog assuming similar conditions?

Pogacar himself once said that after an analysis with his team they thought that if everything had gone well he could've been 40 seconds faster on that ITT in 2023. Which still leaves us with a deficit of almost a minute. Obviously those numbers aren't precise but this statement confirmed further that Vingo's TT was truly alien. In theory a similar gap could be achievable this year but everything will be different: the form, the circumstances. It could be much closer between Vingo and his rivals this time.

 

[CyclistAbi]

i can’t imagine he’d attack Vingo’s mechanical unless he’s already well out in front.

Assuming he has to dig deep, how much time is worth the effort? Anything less than a minute spells danger for him in week three to me. 2-3 minutes would be worth whatever investment he makes

It's his terrain so he should race it as Strade Bianche. Rogla will likely manage just fine, as for Jonas and Remco, who knows.

 

[Froome]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1752338410579034278

View: https://twitter.com/GCKUSSfan/status/1752338410579034278

 

[scribers]

I'm a realsucka

 

[scribers]

This is exactly how I see this tdf going down

View: https://youtu.be/msDuNZyYAIQ?si=SVW01pcrbFLa31FW

 

[Elos Anjos]

Bernard Hinault: "As long as I breath, I Attack!" Now that's no wheelsucker.

It's a good war cry, but of course it is not and cannot be true.

Likewise, it would be ludicrous to demand that all riders should be like Hinault.

Learn to wheelsuck and you last longer. Attack to entertain the dopamine rush of some anonymous fans and you will likely fare into obliviou.

 

[Berniece]

Learn to wheelsuck and you last longer. Attack to entertain the dopamine rush of some anonymous fans and you will likely fare into obliviou.

Some anonymous fans? Every cycling fan prefers an exciting race compared to wheelsucking... Unless it's the rider you are rooting for.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Some anonymous fans? Every cycling fan prefers an exciting race compared to wheelsucking... Unless it's the rider you are rooting for.

Don't make it personal. The point being that riders use everything to their advantage like wheelsucking until the time comes to deliver an attack. That's why calling Roglic a wheelsucker is just blatant dishonesty.

 

[Berniece]

Don't make it personal. The point being that riders use everything to their advantage like wheelsucking until the time comes to deliver an attack. That's why calling Roglic a wheelsucker is just blatant dishonesty.

I didn't mean specifically you. More as in people care less about wheelsucking if it's the rider they are rooting for.

Ah yes, Roglic is no wheelsucker, we've seen that in Catalunya last year.

 

[Elos Anjos]

My larger point is that riders cannot choose to be good in sprinting, TT, long range attacks, mountain goats. They can only explore and improve their nature, what they already are.

Roglic not sprinting in mountain and hilly stages would be the same as Vingo not attacking in multiple mountain stages. It would be something against their nature. So it would dishonest to ask them to be something else.

 

[Berniece]

My larger point is that riders cannot choose to be good in sprinting, TT, long range attacks, mountain goats. They can only explore and improve their nature, what they already are.

Roglic not sprinting in mountain and hilly stages would be the same as Vingo not attacking in multiple mountain stages. It would be something against their nature. So it would dishonest to ask them to be something else.

Lol, no one is saying Roglic shouldn't sprint. Just take a turn.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Lol, no one is saying Roglic shouldn't sprint. Just take a turn.

His strategy is working and has been working. Why should he? Certainly not because of your feelings.

 

[Berniece]

His strategy is working and has been working. Why should he? Certainly not because of your feelings.

He can do whatever he wants. Just like I can watch him do whatever he wants and then say he’s a boring wheelsucker.

 

[Netserk]

I didn't mean specifically you. More as in people care less about wheelsucking if it's the rider they are rooting for.

Ah yes, Roglic is no wheelsucker, we've seen that in Catalunya last year.

While I think the term is both meaningful and fair, I don't think Catalunya was an example of it. In the same way that I don't think Contador wheelsucked Froome in the 2014 Vuelta. He marked his direct rival and defended his lead.

What then is wheelsucking? It's when a rider foregoes cooperation and exploits his opponent's willingness to bring both of them success. That is something else, as it fails if the opponent responds in kind. Defending a lead does not fail if the opponent also defends his position.

I don't have anything against such exploitation, when it is done masterfully. To read your opponent well and to credibly commit to not pulling brings greater richness to races. Rui Costa is a true artisan of the craft. Done by a lesser rider out of inerta in a self-sabotaging manner can be very frustrating though.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

It's his terrain so he should race it as Strade Bianche. Rogla will likely manage just fine, as for Jonas and Remco, who knows.

Come on, Jonas will have so much power that he will be almost flying above the road, no matter asphalt or gravel. A defect is a bigger risk.

 

[Berniece]

While I think the term is both meaningful and fair, I don't think Catalunya was an example of it. In the same way that I don't think Contador wheelsucked Froome in the 2014 Vuelta. He marked his direct rival and defended his lead.

What then is wheelsucking? It's when a rider foregoes cooperation and exploits his opponent's willingness to bring both of them success. That is something else, as it fails if the opponents responds in kind. Defending a lead does not fail if the opponent also defends his position.

I don't have anything against such exploitation, when it is done masterfully. To read your opponent well and to credibly commit to not pulling brings greater richness to races. Rui Costa is a true artisan of the craft. Done by a lesser rider out of inerta in a self-sabotaging manner can be very frustrating though.

My issue with Roglic started in the 2nd stage. Sure he won the day before and was leader, but it's not like he was already minutes ahead of his direct opponents. When he sat in the wheel of Evenepoel, together with Ciccone, for multiple kilometers, I thought it showed weakness to not take a turn. The guy that won 3 GT's and multiple 1-week stage races didn't want to take a turn. But then sprints for bonus seconds. It's boring, and he's a chicken.

Case could obviously be made that Evenepoel should just stop riding in such a case, which I agree with. But doesn't mean I can still find the actions of Roglic pathetic. Regardless of it getting him victories. Good for him.

 

[Netserk]

Call it defensive, call it boring, but not keeping your cool and letting your frustration lead to unwise decisions is not bravery. It's just foolish. And I won't demand riders to be fools.

 

[scribers]

rui costa is just about the only example of wheelsucking I can’t get behind (see what I did there??)

 

[how yes no?]

Call it defensive, call it boring, but not keeping your cool and letting your frustration lead to unwise decisions is not bravery. It's just foolish. And I won't demand riders to be fools.

Exactly. People are in other words wishing for removal of drag/aerodynamics from cycling, so there could be no wheel-sucking... but this is one one the most *** things one could wish, as drag and all strategies formed around that is at core of competitive cycling and why it has any interest for watching compared to guys in controlled conditions trying who can spin the legs the most for longest.
And even if we ignore this... I can hardly imagine something as boring as a rider consistently winning by pure brute force... what could be more boring.

Some riders should learn to race also in categories where they are not 2 levels above competition like in the junior years. You cant cancel race tactics and smarts out of cycling, its stupid to even suggest it, especially when done from or for a position where such skills are lacking.

 

[Berniece]

Call it defensive, call it boring, but not keeping your cool and letting your frustration lead to unwise decisions is not bravery. It's just foolish. And I won't demand riders to be fools.

Sure, but taking a turn is not being brave or extremely foolish, as a 3 time GT winner. That's just doing your part of the work.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Berniece

You are a bona fide Remco fan and as Remco didn't win against Rogla, on that race you mention, that is basically what really frustrates you.

We are here for you, as i would feel the same, if the situation would be vice versa. Although, i don't mind all that much any more, that Remco finished ahead on Vuelta 2022. I much rather see Rogla racing against genuine champs, then for that not to be a thing.

Objectively, there is nothing wrong with Rogličes racing style. It's rather specific and i feel that should be cherished.

Otherwise we would only be watching champs racing as seen in that video @scribers posted above. Good gracious, if we would get that instead, as a part of a cycling "super league". So my suggestion would be enjoy it till it last. And besides Rogla stomping Jonas would be dope.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Come on, Jonas will have so much power that he will be almost flying above the road, no matter asphalt or gravel. A defect is a bigger risk.

Realistically Pogi is (much) better on such terrain, then Jonas. So Pogi should give it a go.

 

[Berniece]

@Berniece

You are a bona fide Remco fan and as Remco didn't win against Rogla, on that race you mention, that is basically what really frustrates you.

Not at all.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Not at all.

If Remco would win Catalunya 2023, we wouldn't be having this discussion.