Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[scribers]

Every favorable stage Ayuso, almeida, and Yates take turns trying to get in the break. Full gas. One of them has to get in and it will be vismas job to bring it back in. Bora and QS have to show discipline if they want a chance to get up the road themselves. I’d want nothing to do with this *** either if I was Wout

 

[Berniece]

When one is reminded that a whole sport is based in the marginal advantages of saving watts in the wind along a parcours, the term "wheelsucking" is as descriptive and insulting as the term "ballkicker" would be for a football player or facebeater for a boxer.

Everyone wheelsucks. It's part of race dynamics. Only naif, young and careless riders avoid it everynow and then. They usually end up dearly paying for it.

I disagree completely. Everyone can see when someone is wheelsucking and when someone is preserving strength. Cyclists name this themselves, that they deliberately choose not to work with someone because they are known to wheelsuck.

 

[Extinction]

When one is reminded that a whole sport is based in the marginal advantages of saving watts in the wind along a parcours, the term "wheelsucking" is as descriptive and insulting as the term "ballkicker" would be for a football player or facebeater for a boxer.

Everyone wheelsucks. It's part of race dynamics. Only naif, young and careless riders avoid it everynow and then. They usually end up dearly paying for it.

Wheelsucking applies to a rider deliberately staying on the wheel to gain advantage from another's efforts when a race is "on", when he could ride himself or attack. But Pogi can't be accused of this, while Roglic yes. Although the former has been criticized at times for being over-exuberant, if not recklessly cavalier, the latter praised for tactical astuteness (except when his conservative riding ultimately wound up losing him the 2020 Tour - ironically overtaken by the more cavalier one - when coming up short in the last TT).

I wonder how much of Vingegaard's superiority in the 3rd week is because he saved more energy than Pogacar via tactics and also being better protected by a stronger team?

I am also of the view Pogacar's collapse on stage 17 was due to a lack of base related to his LBL crash and interrupted prep.

I'll admit this is me hoping rather than what is likely.

I think Pogacar can't let go an opportunity to gain time on Vingo in the first weeks of the Tour, when his explosiveness permits, because, in theory at least, he can't go into week three without an advantage over the Dane. For this is when Jonas gains the upperhand owing to his apparent superior recovery and aerobic effeciency. In this sense, I think it matters little if Tadej holds back in weeks one and two, as he still won't gain a performance advantage over Jonas during the third week, while he won't have any time to lose either. In practice it remains to be seen, but this is the impression I have.

 

[YavorD]

I wonder how much of Vingegaard's superiority in the 3rd week is because he saved more energy than Pogacar via tactics and also being better protected by a stronger team?

I might remember wrong, but to me it seemed that Vingegaard spent at least as much energy as Pog, probably even more in 2023.
I men, he was riding like crazy after Marie Blanque, he attacked on Tourmalet, he was sometimes alone in the wind in the last kilometers of flat stages, he even chased down few attacks made by Adam in some of these transitional stages in the second week.
Now, I didn't watch the full flat stages, but at least in the last kilometers, he seemed to be using more energy than Pogacar.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I might remember wrong, but to me it seemed that Vingegaard spent at least as much energy as Pog, probably even more in 2023.
I men, he was riding like crazy after Marie Blanque, he attacked on Tourmalet, he was sometimes alone in the wind in the last kilometers of flat stages, he even chased down few attacks made by Adam in some of these transitional stages in the second week.
Now, I didn't watch the full flat stages, but at least in the last kilometers, he seemed to be using more energy than Pogacar.

2022 was another story (Galibier, cobbles) but yeah, in 2023 Vingo used up a lot of energy. As you said, Marie-Blanque stage and the next day when he wanted to kill Pog once and for all. In the middle of the race they both used up similar amount of energy. In the 3rd week Vingo had another very strong ride (Loze). Definitely last year Pog didn't use more energy than Vingo (probably less) and his team was as strong as JV actually.

 

[Peter von]

I might remember wrong, but to me it seemed that Vingegaard spent at least as much energy as Pog, probably even more in 2023.
I men, he was riding like crazy after Marie Blanque, he attacked on Tourmalet, he was sometimes alone in the wind in the last kilometers of flat stages, he even chased down few attacks made by Adam in some of these transitional stages in the second week.
Now, I didn't watch the full flat stages, but at least in the last kilometers, he seemed to be using more energy than Pogacar.

He did certainly waste some energy he didn't have to, but always difficult to add all those up, but I think it opens up for: even if Vingo is just better at recovery, there is a route for a Pogi to better at resource management over 3 weeks.

But IMO the big thing about Pogi and UAE being more passive compared to earlier is that it put further cost on Visma to make sure the pace is hard on all the climbs. It's great to have initiative, but can also be costly over 3 weeks.

 

[Cookster15]

2022 was another story (Galibier, cobbles) but yeah, in 2023 Vingo used up a lot of energy. As you said, Marie-Blanque stage and the next day when he wanted to kill Pog once and for all. In the middle of the race they both used up similar amount of energy. In the 3rd week Vingo had another very strong ride (Loze). Definitely last year Pog didn't use more energy than Vingo (probably less) and his team was as strong as JV actually.

Maybe the LBL crash and lost time on the bike caught up with his recovery? We know he went super deep on the TT. Next day he appeared completely empty. Maybe that won’t happen again? I am just trying to be optimistic as cycling doesn’t always pan out as expected.

 

[Elos Anjos]

I disagree completely. Everyone can see when someone is wheelsucking and when someone is preserving strength. Cyclists name this themselves, that they deliberately choose not to work with someone because they are known to wheelsuck.

Wheelsucking is preserving strength. You can't accuse any rider if he preferes to save himself rather than burn his matches prematurely just with the goal of you and other viewers to have a dopamine kick.

Wheelsucking applies to a rider deliberately staying on the wheel to gain advantage from another's efforts when a race is "on", when he could ride himself or attack. But Pogi can't be accused of this, while Roglic yes. Although the former has been criticized at times for being over-exuberant, if not recklessly cavalier, the latter praised for tactical astuteness (except when his conservative riding ultimately wound up losing him the 2020 Tour - ironically overtaken by the more cavalier one - when coming up short in the last TT).

Nonsense. Every rider can ride for himself but why should he be burnt that way until the right moment comes, if it comes at all? Wheelsucking, feigning tiredness, race reading, body reading, attacking, conserving your energy are all skills in a sport that is based on managing efforts along a race or various days.

The fact that everyone wheelsucks is why many races are won when an attacker escapes a large group and group dynamics fail in the pursuit. While everyone knows that he can be brought up in terms of sheer strenght, the rider won't likely be caught because someone has to do the work (unless he is MVDP) while other would wheelsuck his lifeforce and would likely benefit in the end, leaving him without any profit.

 

[Berniece]

Wheelsucking is preserving strength. You can't accuse any rider if he preferes to save himself rather than burn his matches prematurely just with the goal of you and other viewers to have a dopamine kick.

That's completely true, but I can call someone a boring rider, and a wheelsucker if they don't give me a dopamine kick. I don't have an affinity with a rider because of their age, gender, or nationality. I like them based on how they ride and behave on/off the bike. There's a reason why a lot of people like WVA, MVDP, Pogacar. It's not only because they win.

On top of that. Those dopamine kicks is what make people watch the sport, and thus what funds this whole business. Most people get those kicks from attractive riding, not from doing nothing all race and still winning. The rider that won might not care about it, but the watcher does. I get that if you are a fan of someone that wins his races like this, you also don't care, eventually you won, but the rest can definitely critique that method of racing since it's boring.

 

[sam6]

It does kinda sound like Pogi should consider trying the wheel sucking. See if he can get Vingegaard to either expend more energy or risk not making the race hard enough for his recovery to make the difference. Sure snack some bonus seconds if they are there, but don't plan on them.

Going off data and results from past two seasons still won't be enough, but Pogi should consider giving it a go IMO. Visma clearly want the hard race so stop giving your opponent what they want.

Exactly, he should wheel suck and only attack in the last few kms and from long range on the gravel. His best stage was the Tourmalet stage finishing at Cauterets-Cambasque where Jumbo blew the race to pieces early and then Pogi wheel sucked Vingegaard until it became clear that he was stronger then he attacked. Pogi should try and replicate this

 

[Elos Anjos]

That's completely true, but I can call someone a boring rider, and a wheelsucker if they don't give me a dopamine kick. I don't have an affinity with a rider because of their age, gender, or nationality. I like them based on how they ride and behave on/off the bike. There's a reason why a lot of people like WVA, MVDP, Pogacar. It's not only because they win.

On top of that. Those dopamine kicks is what make people watch the sport, and thus what funds this whole business. Most people get those kicks from attractive riding, not from doing nothing all race and still winning. The rider that won might not care about it, but the watcher does. I get that if you are a fan of someone that wins his races like this, you also don't care, eventually you won, but the rest can definitely critique that method of racing since it's boring.

OK! Great to see we are going somewhere. I just want to stress that "wheelsucker" is just on the eye of the beholder. It's a matter of taste. And of course daring and sucessful attacks are more popular for viewers and for me as well. But I can't blame riders for doing that.

Nevertheless, I for one have been stating again and again how a rider being boring or not is not up to his choice, so he can't really be praised about that. Do you think Pogacar attacks just because he wants? Or is that he attacks first and foremost because he can attack? Everyone rider would like to be more attacking but as they age, they learn to read when they should in fact do it.

Quintana attacked a lot more when he was younger. He did attack sometimes just to be brought back. So of course between viewers dopamine kicks, popularity and sponsors pressure, wheelsucking sometimes comes as the better strategy.

 

[Peter von]

Exactly, he should wheel suck and only attack in the last few kms and from long range on the gravel. His best stage was the Tourmalet stage finishing at Cauterets-Cambasque where Jumbo blew the race to pieces early and then Pogi wheel sucked Vingegaard until it became clear that he was stronger then he attacked. Pogi should try and replicate this

I'd say he probably should considder waiting to the last k, unless Vingo is ill or something. Pogi might gain 20 seconds in week 2 if the stage suits him better, but the idea Visma has is that, the cost of that effort translates to 40 seconds the other way in third week.

Gravel is another matter, there he has to put the pressure on, but here he'll also be helped massively by favorites to the stage win

 

[Froome]

Exactly, he should wheel suck and only attack in the last few kms and from long range on the gravel. His best stage was the Tourmalet stage finishing at Cauterets-Cambasque where Jumbo blew the race to pieces early and then Pogi wheel sucked Vingegaard until it became clear that he was stronger then he attacked. Pogi should try and replicate this

That strategy work when the opponent is worst than the "wheelsucker" in the TT.

 

[Extinction]

Wheelsucking is preserving strength. You can't accuse any rider if he preferes to save himself rather than burn his matches prematurely just with the goal of you and other viewers to have a dopamine kick.


Nonsense. Every rider can ride for himself but why should he be burnt that way until the right moment comes, if it comes at all? Wheelsucking, feigning tiredness, race reading, body reading, attacking, conserving your energy are all skills in a sport that is based on managing efforts along a race or various days.

The fact that everyone wheelsucks is why many races are won when an attacker escapes a large group and group dynamics fail in the pursuit. While everyone knows that he can be brought up in terms of sheer strenght, the rider won't likely be caught because someone has to do the work (unless he is MVDP) while other would wheelsuck his lifeforce and would likely benefit in the end, leaving him without any profit.

Got it, bro, so wheelsucking doesn't exist, no rider has ever been a wheelsucker, the very idea of which is utterly rediculous, because so-called wheelsucking is only ever tactical nous, etc., etc. But you know what? That's bulllllssssshit. There is a difference between being tactically astute and flagrant wheelsucking, and it has always been so. To say otherwise is merely idiotic.

 

[Berniece]

Nevertheless, I for one have been stating again and again how a rider being boring or not is not up to his choice, so he can't really be praised about that. Do you think Pogacar attacks just because he wants? Or is that he attacks first and foremost because he can attack? Everyone rider would like to be more attacking but as they age, they learn to read when they should in fact do it.

Yes, but there are also riders that can attack or take turns in the front, but still don't. Tactically you don't have to, but don't be surprised that you are called a wheelsucker of boring rider then.

 

[Extinction]

Yes, but there are also riders that can attack or take turns in the front, but still don't. Tactically you don't have to, but don't be surprised that you are called a wheelsucker of boring rider then.

Exactly

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Maybe the LBL crash and lost time on the bike caught up with his recovery? We know he went super deep on the TT. Next day he appeared completely empty. Maybe that won’t happen again? I am just trying to be optimistic as cycling doesn’t always pan out as expected.

Yup, his preparation was shortened and maybe his aerobic base wasn't enough. This would partially explain his big loses in the 3rd week (the other part of the explanation is TT of the century by Vingo). I think it could've been much closer in the 3rd week without Liege crash but OTOH Vingo looked almost unbeatable anyway.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Exactly

Yes, but there are also riders that can attack or take turns in the front, but still don't. Tactically you don't have to, but don't be surprised that you are called a wheelsucker of boring rider then.

No one wins a GT just by wheelsucking but one can loose a GT for not wheelsucking at the right times.

 

[Berniece]

No one wins a GT just by wheelsucking but one can loose a GT for not wheelsucking at the right times.

You can definitely win a GT by wheelsucking. I've seen enough riders win a 1-week stage race by wheelsucking, so don't know why this can't be applied to a GT.

 

[Froome]

You can definitely win a GT by wheelsucking. I've seen enough riders win a 1-week stage race by wheelsucking, so don't know why this can't be applied to a GT.

Vuelta Catalunya 2023.

 

[Berniece]

Vuelta Catalunya 2023.

I didn't want to be too obvious by naming it, but indeed

 

[Elos Anjos]

Ah yes, Roglic, the itch that can't be scratched. Wheelsucking is the scape goat for ressentful fans.

 

[Extinction]

No one wins a GT just by wheelsucking but one can loose a GT for not wheelsucking at the right times.

Well, this, I agree with. However, if a rider is known to shy from taking his turn in a break often, he gets a reputation as a wheelsucker and, when possibile, others will not work with him.

 

[Froome]

Well, this, I agree with. However, if a rider is known to shy from taking his turn in a break often, he gets a reputation as a wheelsucker and, when possibile, others will not work with him.

Rui costa.

 

[CyclistAbi]

So now Pogi is a wheelsucker. You got to love the cycling fans. Had to deal with the same *** in Rogličes thread.