Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Nick2413]

Yates is the third best climber in the world right now. He will drop everyone in the Tour, mark my words

Pogi to Yates on the radio halfway up Bonette with 60k to go in the stage - “I’m gone. I’m dead.”

 

[Elos Anjos]

He didn't have a wrist injury in 2022. He'll have time to demonstrate otherwise, if he is able. Then I'll start to believe.

He didn't but you said two years in a row soundly, so the flaw is on you.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Yes but there were possible explanations for that. As has been explained ad nauseam, yet papered over, Pogacar rode stupid on Granon which effectively lost him that Tour and last year, yes the wrist interrupted his prep which is the only valid reason why he collapsed on Loze the day after he went deep in the Combloux TT.

Already this season I think Pogacar is giving some strong clues what he is capable of with uninterrupted preparation. As others have said, putting the two TdFs defeats aside, he has shown progression since 2020 - as we would expect for such a young rider.

I agree he needs to beat Vingegaard at the Tour but its way too early to suggest Pog is the GOAT anyway.

This is a lot of handwaving. Again, I think Pogacar is amazing and maybe he will win the next 5 Tours and this will all be moot, but these are the facts as they stand:

• 2020:
  • Young and likely pre-peak
  • Dropped by MAL and Roglic on Loze
  • Behind Roglic going into the final contested stage and needed a Roglic collapse on the ITT to win
• 2021:
  • Benefitted from Roglic crashing out and Vingegaard crashing on a key mountain stage
  • Dropped by Vingegaard on Ventoux
• 2022:
  • Lost one net second on the ITTs (-:08 on one and +:09 on the other)
  • Dropped not just on Granon but also on Huatacam
  • Never got even a single bike length in front of Vingegaard despite incessant attacks
• 2023:
  • Best numbers ever on some stages, IIRC
  • Did manage to drop Vingegaard on multiple occasions
  • Ultimately crushed on the ITT despite performing as well as in the big 2020 ITT relative to the rest of the field
  • Totally collapsed on Loze but still managed a stage win on a mountain finish later in the race

Reading through this, it seems to me that a tremendous amount of hand-waving is required to come to the conclusion that Vingegaard hasn't proven himself to be the superior Tour rider head-to-head to date. That could change, but I don't think any amount of argument can "explain" away Vingegaard's big victories.

Trust me, as a Roglic fan (and then Pogi fan), I'd love to come up with something that makes them look better than Vingegaard.

 

[Extinction]

But he did have to go up against the strongest team with his own depleted and got worked over by Roglic to set up Vingegaard’s big breakout.

I think Vingegaard's "big breakout", however, was gonna happen, whether Roglic set him up or not. Pog probably would have lost 2 minutes anyway, while his poor tactics cost him more than three. Either way, Jonas was simply too strong.

 

[Froome]

This is a lot of handwaving. Again, I think Pogacar is amazing and maybe he will win the next 5 Tours and this will all be moot, but these are the facts as they stand:

• 2020:
  • Young and likely pre-peak
  • Dropped by MAL and Roglic on Loze
  • Behind Roglic going into the final contested stage and needed a Roglic collapse on the ITT to win
• 2021:
  • Benefitted from Roglic crashing out and Vingegaard crashing on a key mountain stage
  • Dropped by Vingegaard on Ventoux
• 2022:
  • Lost one net second on the ITTs (-:08 on one and +:09 on the other)
  • Dropped not just on Granon but also on Huatacam
  • Never got even a single bike length in front of Vingegaard despite incessant attacks
• 2023:
  • Best numbers ever on some stages, IIRC
  • Did manage to drop Vingegaard on multiple occasions
  • Ultimately crushed on the ITT despite performing as well as in the big 2020 ITT relative to the rest of the field
  • Totally collapsed on Loze but still managed a stage win on a mountain finish later in the race

Reading through this, it seems to me that a tremendous amount of hand-waving is required to come to the conclusion that Vingegaard hasn't proven himself to be the superior Tour rider head-to-head to date. That could change, but I don't think any amount of argument can "explain" away Vingegaard's big victories.

Trust me, as a Roglic fan (and then Pogi fan), I'd love to come up with something that makes them look better than Vingegaard.

I don't understand the doubts about Vingegaard being the best GT rider in the peloton. He can push better numbers than Pogacar in grand tours, he can recover better, and do better Time trials, especially in the third week. It's just a question of comparing the best perfomances ever of each one of them in Grand Tours, and the conclusion is easy.

It's like having questions about who is the best one day racer between Vingegaard and Pogacar. Obviously is Pogacar, since is more complete in the sense of fighting in all the type of classics, one week races and Grand Tours.

 

[Bolder]

I don't understand the doubts about Vingegaard being the best GT rider in the peloton. He can push better numbers than Pogacar in grand tours, he can recover better, and do better Time trials, especially in the third week. It's just a question of comparing the best perfomances ever of each one of them in Grand Tours, and the conclusion is easy.

It's like having questions about who is the best one day racer between Vingegaard and Pogacar. Obviously is Pogacar, since is more complete in the sense of fighting in all the type of classics, one week races and Grand Tours.

The one slight reservation I have about unequivocally declaring Vingegaard a superior GT rider, results aside, is that Pogacar has peaked for the early season monuments like MSR, RVV and LBL, so perhaps with a more measured approach to the Tour he would be able to match Vingegaard. We may never know, tho.

 

[Froome]

The one slight reservation I have about unequivocally declaring Vingegaard a superior GT rider, results aside, is that Pogacar has peaked for the early season monuments like MSR, RVV and LBL, so perhaps with a more measured approach to the Tour he would be able to match Vingegaard. We may never know, tho.

Those classics are 3/4 months before the Tour. There's a lot of time to rest and peak in July.

Besides that, he doesn't race that much.

 

[Extinction]

The one slight reservation I have about unequivocally declaring Vingegaard a superior GT rider, results aside, is that Pogacar has peaked for the early season monuments like MSR, RVV and LBL, so perhaps with a more measured approach to the Tour he would be able to match Vingegaard. We may never know, tho.

Good point! One of the reasons why Pogi is so appreciated and therefore loved is because he is audacious and has the talent to back it up. On the other hand, he can dare more than a big deisel such as Vingegaard, because he is more explosive. Yet this very characteristic may diminish his returns over the long haul in July (as explosivity inevitably has long duration costs), where, by contrast, Vingegaard excels.

 

[Taxus4a]

I don't understand the doubts about Vingegaard being the best GT rider in the peloton. He can push better numbers than Pogacar in grand tours, he can recover better, and do better Time trials, especially in the third week. It's just a question of comparing the best perfomances ever of each one of them in Grand Tours, and the conclusion is easy.

It's like having questions about who is the best one day racer between Vingegaard and Pogacar. Obviously is Pogacar, since is more complete in the sense of fighting in all the type of classics, one week races and Grand Tours.

I dont have doubts, Bur pOgacar eecover very well, and I think can time trial better...but after the mountains, in a hilly TT, os better Vinbgeggard, or at least there is doubts. LAsta year clearly better....But as well crearly Better than WVA, is he a better trialist? NO.

Bur he is beter ina real hard mountains tage, especially if came after several mountain stages and it has long climbs...maybe just on that, but that can be very importnt to win a Grand Tour.

Globaly, Pogacar is a better cyclist, buy no so clearly, whay Vingegaard is doing is stage race is as well amazing.

 

[Extinction]

I don't understand the doubts about Vingegaard being the best GT rider in the peloton. He can push better numbers than Pogacar in grand tours, he can recover better, and do better Time trials, especially in the third week. It's just a question of comparing the best perfomances ever of each one of them in Grand Tours, and the conclusion is easy.

It's like having questions about who is the best one day racer between Vingegaard and Pogacar. Obviously is Pogacar, since is more complete in the sense of fighting in all the type of classics, one week races and Grand Tours.

Vingegaard in July has been impeccable for two years, but Pogacar in version 2024 might get the upper hand. He is leaner and meaner. So I won't put it past him to Goatdom moving forward. But that depends on Vingegaard, who this round may not be up for the challenge sadly. Everything needs further evaluation in the next years.

 

[snipeheem]

Vingegaard in July has been impeccable for two years, but Pogacar in version 2024 might get the upper hand. He is leaner and meaner. So I won't put it past him to Goatdom moving forward. But that depends on Vingegaard, who this round may not be up for the challenge sadly. Everything needs further evaluation in the next years.

Yeah we are gonna see the new Pogi this year

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I have gone through about 80 pages since the beginning of the Giro, and extracted 202 posts to put into another thread: Pogacar as GOAT: now, never or when. Maybe we can have that increasingly bitter and polemic set of trolling accuations over there, and keep this as a discussion of current racing.

That thread even has a poll, but no Vino option.

 

[Extinction]

If Pogi has this Adam Yates as a domestique, then all but a top Vingegaard has a chance in July. Adam's kryptonite is the TT, but uphill he is a beast.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I have gone through about 80 pages since the beginning of the Giro, and extracted 202 posts to put into another thread: Pogacar as GOAT: now, never or when. Maybe we can have that increasingly bitter and polemic set of trolling accuations over there, and keep this as a discussion of current racing.

Why a new thread? Doesn't make any sense. If you are going to extract every post from every thread that doesn't talk about road racing, you are screwed mate. Just warn people, if they don't listen, ban them.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Why a new thread? Doesn't make any sense. If you are going to extract every post from every thread that doesn't talk about road racing, you are screwed mate. Just warn people, if they don't listen, ban them.

Not bannable material: but a distinct area of discussion, and I believe that both threads will benefit from it being distinct.

For what it's worth, my own position is that it is such a subjective matter, with huge opportunities for those of any opinion to garner bias confirmation data, that to argue with the degree of certainty and absolute conviction that some do, is meaningless.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Not bannable material: but a distinct area of discussion, and I believe that both threads will benefit from it being distinct.

In 2 months, no one will remember the other thread. You already created a different thread to discuss how likely would be for Pogacar to win Giro-Tour, no one write there anymore and they still discuss here how Pogi is the heavy favourite to win Giro-Tour.
But you are the mod, do whatever you want. I just think it is pointless...

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

In 2 months, no one will remember the other thread. You already created a different thread to discuss how likely would be for Pogacar to win Giro-Tour, no one write there anymore

No I didn't:
Gigs started one
Nerserk started one as a refinement of that

 

[Peyroteo94]

No I didn't:
Gigs started one
Nerserk started one as a refinement of that

Sorry but I maintain my opinion. Those threads generate discussion for a week or two however they are forgotten very quickly. It doesn't make sense at all. For example, Gigs thread had one page. What is the point of having secondary threads with one page or 6 pages? Just put where it belongs, the Pogacar Discussion Thread

 

[Tim Cahill]

Thank god.

Now we can get to back to the real issue at hand.

On what stage does Adam Yates drop Pogacar this year?

19 I think is the big moment.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Thank god.

Now we can get to back to the real issue at hand.

On what stage does Adam Yates drop Pogacar this year?

19 I think is the big moment.

Ayuso, Almeida, Yates and Pogačar will ride away on every mountain holding hands, but Stage 21 will be where Yates shocks Pogačar.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Sorry but I maintain my opinion. Those threads generate discussion for a week or two however they are forgotten very quickly. It doesn't make sense at all. For example, Gigs thread had one page. What is the point of having secondary threads with one page or 6 pages? Just put where it belongs, the Pogacar Discussion Thread

I don't see how that is not a justification for the existence of the threads.
I also personally think subthreads are helpfull, especially for specific but interesting Topics about races, riders or teams, because they are more inviting than forever threads where you sometimes have to go back tens of pages to understand, what he hell all the cross references are about. You easily get like 3 different discussions at the same time.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Thank god.

I've been called many things in my time, but never this one before...

 

[Gigs_98]

Sorry but I maintain my opinion. Those threads generate discussion for a week or two however they are forgotten very quickly. It doesn't make sense at all. For example, Gigs thread had one page. What is the point of having secondary threads with one page or 6 pages? Just put where it belongs, the Pogacar Discussion Thread

I mean that's entirely down to the 2nd thread which was discussing a very similar topic and had 6 pages. And regardless of page numbers, the point of those threads was to make a poll, which you cannot do here. Creating threads for topics related to a rider who already has his own thread is a very legitimate thing to do.

That said, I also don't think discussions concerned with a rider need to be extracted from that riders thread retroactively by mods. It seems like a lot of work for @Armchair cyclist and I think it can suffocate discussions. There were similar cases in recent months where a new thread was created but the people discussing the topic here never migrated to the new thread. So the creation of a thread for the discussion instead ended the discussion.

 

[Netserk]

I mean that's entirely down to the 2nd thread which was discussing a very similar topic and had 6 pages. And regardless of page numbers, the point of those threads was to make a poll, which you cannot do here. Creating threads for topics related to a rider who already has his own thread is a very legitimate thing to do.

That said, I also don't think discussions concerned with a rider need to be extracted from that riders thread retroactively by mods. It seems like a lot of work for @Armchair cyclist and I think it can suffocate discussions. There were similar cases in recent months where a new thread was created but the people discussing the topic here never migrated to the new thread. So the creation of a thread for the discussion instead ended the discussion.

Sounds like success.

 

[Fos]

Those classics are 3/4 months before the Tour. There's a lot of time to rest and peak in July.

Besides that, he doesn't race that much.

That rest is not a reset and you have already focused more on explosiveness than on endurance.