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Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

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VayaVayaVaya

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Cookster15 said:
Yes but there were possible explanations for that. As has been explained ad nauseam, yet papered over, Pogacar rode stupid on Granon which effectively lost him that Tour and last year, yes the wrist interrupted his prep which is the only valid reason why he collapsed on Loze the day after he went deep in the Combloux TT.

Already this season I think Pogacar is giving some strong clues what he is capable of with uninterrupted preparation. As others have said, putting the two TdFs defeats aside, he has shown progression since 2020 - as we would expect for such a young rider.

I agree he needs to beat Vingegaard at the Tour but its way too early to suggest Pog is the GOAT anyway.
Click to expand...
This is a lot of handwaving. Again, I think Pogacar is amazing and maybe he will win the next 5 Tours and this will all be moot, but these are the facts as they stand:
  • 2020:
    • Young and likely pre-peak
    • Dropped by MAL and Roglic on Loze
    • Behind Roglic going into the final contested stage and needed a Roglic collapse on the ITT to win
  • 2021:
    • Benefitted from Roglic crashing out and Vingegaard crashing on a key mountain stage
    • Dropped by Vingegaard on Ventoux
  • 2022:
    • Lost one net second on the ITTs (-:08 on one and +:09 on the other)
    • Dropped not just on Granon but also on Huatacam
    • Never got even a single bike length in front of Vingegaard despite incessant attacks
  • 2023:
    • Best numbers ever on some stages, IIRC
    • Did manage to drop Vingegaard on multiple occasions
    • Ultimately crushed on the ITT despite performing as well as in the big 2020 ITT relative to the rest of the field
    • Totally collapsed on Loze but still managed a stage win on a mountain finish later in the race
Reading through this, it seems to me that a tremendous amount of hand-waving is required to come to the conclusion that Vingegaard hasn't proven himself to be the superior Tour rider head-to-head to date. That could change, but I don't think any amount of argument can "explain" away Vingegaard's big victories.

Trust me, as a Roglic fan (and then Pogi fan), I'd love to come up with something that makes them look better than Vingegaard.
 
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Extinction

Extinction

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SHAD0W93 said:
But he did have to go up against the strongest team with his own depleted and got worked over by Roglic to set up Vingegaard’s big breakout.
Click to expand...
I think Vingegaard's "big breakout", however, was gonna happen, whether Roglic set him up or not. Pog probably would have lost 2 minutes anyway, while his poor tactics cost him more than three. Either way, Jonas was simply too strong.
 
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Froome

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VayaVayaVaya said:
This is a lot of handwaving. Again, I think Pogacar is amazing and maybe he will win the next 5 Tours and this will all be moot, but these are the facts as they stand:
  • 2020:
    • Young and likely pre-peak
    • Dropped by MAL and Roglic on Loze
    • Behind Roglic going into the final contested stage and needed a Roglic collapse on the ITT to win
  • 2021:
    • Benefitted from Roglic crashing out and Vingegaard crashing on a key mountain stage
    • Dropped by Vingegaard on Ventoux
  • 2022:
    • Lost one net second on the ITTs (-:08 on one and +:09 on the other)
    • Dropped not just on Granon but also on Huatacam
    • Never got even a single bike length in front of Vingegaard despite incessant attacks
  • 2023:
    • Best numbers ever on some stages, IIRC
    • Did manage to drop Vingegaard on multiple occasions
    • Ultimately crushed on the ITT despite performing as well as in the big 2020 ITT relative to the rest of the field
    • Totally collapsed on Loze but still managed a stage win on a mountain finish later in the race
Reading through this, it seems to me that a tremendous amount of hand-waving is required to come to the conclusion that Vingegaard hasn't proven himself to be the superior Tour rider head-to-head to date. That could change, but I don't think any amount of argument can "explain" away Vingegaard's big victories.

Trust me, as a Roglic fan (and then Pogi fan), I'd love to come up with something that makes them look better than Vingegaard.
Click to expand...
I don't understand the doubts about Vingegaard being the best GT rider in the peloton. He can push better numbers than Pogacar in grand tours, he can recover better, and do better Time trials, especially in the third week. It's just a question of comparing the best perfomances ever of each one of them in Grand Tours, and the conclusion is easy.

It's like having questions about who is the best one day racer between Vingegaard and Pogacar. Obviously is Pogacar, since is more complete in the sense of fighting in all the type of classics, one week races and Grand Tours.
 
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Bolder

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Froome said:
I don't understand the doubts about Vingegaard being the best GT rider in the peloton. He can push better numbers than Pogacar in grand tours, he can recover better, and do better Time trials, especially in the third week. It's just a question of comparing the best perfomances ever of each one of them in Grand Tours, and the conclusion is easy.

It's like having questions about who is the best one day racer between Vingegaard and Pogacar. Obviously is Pogacar, since is more complete in the sense of fighting in all the type of classics, one week races and Grand Tours.
Click to expand...
The one slight reservation I have about unequivocally declaring Vingegaard a superior GT rider, results aside, is that Pogacar has peaked for the early season monuments like MSR, RVV and LBL, so perhaps with a more measured approach to the Tour he would be able to match Vingegaard. We may never know, tho.
 
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Froome

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Bolder said:
The one slight reservation I have about unequivocally declaring Vingegaard a superior GT rider, results aside, is that Pogacar has peaked for the early season monuments like MSR, RVV and LBL, so perhaps with a more measured approach to the Tour he would be able to match Vingegaard. We may never know, tho.
Click to expand...
Those classics are 3/4 months before the Tour. There's a lot of time to rest and peak in July.

Besides that, he doesn't race that much.
 
Extinction

Extinction

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Bolder said:
The one slight reservation I have about unequivocally declaring Vingegaard a superior GT rider, results aside, is that Pogacar has peaked for the early season monuments like MSR, RVV and LBL, so perhaps with a more measured approach to the Tour he would be able to match Vingegaard. We may never know, tho.
Click to expand...
Good point! One of the reasons why Pogi is so appreciated and therefore loved is because he is audacious and has the talent to back it up. On the other hand, he can dare more than a big deisel such as Vingegaard, because he is more explosive. Yet this very characteristic may diminish his returns over the long haul in July (as explosivity inevitably has long duration costs), where, by contrast, Vingegaard excels.
 
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Taxus4a

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Froome said:
I don't understand the doubts about Vingegaard being the best GT rider in the peloton. He can push better numbers than Pogacar in grand tours, he can recover better, and do better Time trials, especially in the third week. It's just a question of comparing the best perfomances ever of each one of them in Grand Tours, and the conclusion is easy.

It's like having questions about who is the best one day racer between Vingegaard and Pogacar. Obviously is Pogacar, since is more complete in the sense of fighting in all the type of classics, one week races and Grand Tours.
Click to expand...
I dont have doubts, Bur pOgacar eecover very well, and I think can time trial better...but after the mountains, in a hilly TT, os better Vinbgeggard, or at least there is doubts. LAsta year clearly better....But as well crearly Better than WVA, is he a better trialist? NO.

Bur he is beter ina real hard mountains tage, especially if came after several mountain stages and it has long climbs...maybe just on that, but that can be very importnt to win a Grand Tour.

Globaly, Pogacar is a better cyclist, buy no so clearly, whay Vingegaard is doing is stage race is as well amazing.
 
Extinction

Extinction

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Froome said:
I don't understand the doubts about Vingegaard being the best GT rider in the peloton. He can push better numbers than Pogacar in grand tours, he can recover better, and do better Time trials, especially in the third week. It's just a question of comparing the best perfomances ever of each one of them in Grand Tours, and the conclusion is easy.

It's like having questions about who is the best one day racer between Vingegaard and Pogacar. Obviously is Pogacar, since is more complete in the sense of fighting in all the type of classics, one week races and Grand Tours.
Click to expand...
Vingegaard in July has been impeccable for two years, but Pogacar in version 2024 might get the upper hand. He is leaner and meaner. So I won't put it past him to Goatdom moving forward. But that depends on Vingegaard, who this round may not be up for the challenge sadly. Everything needs further evaluation in the next years.
 
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snipeheem

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Extinction said:
Vingegaard in July has been impeccable for two years, but Pogacar in version 2024 might get the upper hand. He is leaner and meaner. So I won't put it past him to Goatdom moving forward. But that depends on Vingegaard, who this round may not be up for the challenge sadly. Everything needs further evaluation in the next years.
Click to expand...
Yeah we are gonna see the new Pogi this year
 
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Armchair Cyclist

Armchair Cyclist

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I have gone through about 80 pages since the beginning of the Giro, and extracted 202 posts to put into another thread: Pogacar as GOAT: now, never or when. Maybe we can have that increasingly bitter and polemic set of trolling accuations over there, and keep this as a discussion of current racing.

That thread even has a poll, but no Vino option.
 
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Peyroteo94

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Armchair cyclist said:
I have gone through about 80 pages since the beginning of the Giro, and extracted 202 posts to put into another thread: Pogacar as GOAT: now, never or when. Maybe we can have that increasingly bitter and polemic set of trolling accuations over there, and keep this as a discussion of current racing.
Click to expand...
Why a new thread? Doesn't make any sense. If you are going to extract every post from every thread that doesn't talk about road racing, you are screwed mate. Just warn people, if they don't listen, ban them.
 
Armchair Cyclist

Armchair Cyclist

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Peyroteo94 said:
Why a new thread? Doesn't make any sense. If you are going to extract every post from every thread that doesn't talk about road racing, you are screwed mate. Just warn people, if they don't listen, ban them.
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Not bannable material: but a distinct area of discussion, and I believe that both threads will benefit from it being distinct.

For what it's worth, my own position is that it is such a subjective matter, with huge opportunities for those of any opinion to garner bias confirmation data, that to argue with the degree of certainty and absolute conviction that some do, is meaningless.
 
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Peyroteo94

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Armchair cyclist said:
Not bannable material: but a distinct area of discussion, and I believe that both threads will benefit from it being distinct.
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In 2 months, no one will remember the other thread. You already created a different thread to discuss how likely would be for Pogacar to win Giro-Tour, no one write there anymore and they still discuss here how Pogi is the heavy favourite to win Giro-Tour.
But you are the mod, do whatever you want. I just think it is pointless...
 
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