Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Fos]

Doing La Vuelta would probably be a bad idea for all kinds of reasons , but this might be the best chance we ever get to see if the GT treble is possible.

Better that he not burn himself out doing La Vuelta thinking about the future, few will doubt in a few years that in 2024 he could have easily achieved the triplet.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

First rider to win the giro - tour double in modern time.

You have a young man's definition of modern...

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Better that he not burn himself out doing La Vuelta thinking about the future, few will doubt in a few years that in 2024 he could have easily achieved the triplet.

Or that the likelihood of defeat is a poor incentive for participation: we'll never know.

 

[Berniece]

This guy doesnt miss. Pogacar or Evenpoel for the win today? Not the most aero TT.

Pogacar, unless he gifts it or does not take risks. But Pogacar not taking risks in the descent is as fast as Evenepoel taking risks

 

[scribers]

You have a young man's definition of modern...

It’s been two Appalachian generations since it was last achieved

 

[Peyroteo94]

Who is better than Pogacar?

Vingegaard? No, simply not versatile enough even when uninjured.

Tennis and golf rankings do not have asterisks for which player was injured. Right now Pogacar is the best rider in the world, period.

On any objective measure Pogacar is the best rider in the world. I think you are inferring the GOAT? In that case I would agree, he isn't there yet. But by the time he retires he might be.

I can't Vingegaard isn't better than Pogacar after beating him for 2 years. For me they are even in GT's and for that reason this is the best rivalry cycling has ever seen. Simply remarkable and I just hope both of them win 5 Tours because they are legends and a joy to watch.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I can't Vingegaard isn't better than Pogacar after beating him for 2 years. For me they are even in GT's and for that reason this is the best rivalry cycling has ever seen. Simply remarkable and I just hope both of them win 5 Tours because they are legends and a joy to watch.

I really don't need 3 more Tour wins by Vingegaard, as I'd prefer someone else I guess to win a Tour in between, but to have them both at 5 at the end would also be pretty epic.
The way it looked this time though, with Vingegaard pushing his best ever numbers, I think it might just be the case from now on that he can't drop Pogacar, or he needs to get much more aggressive about it.

 

[JimPanzen]

I really don't need 3 more Tour wins by Vingegaard, as I'd prefer someone else I guess to win a Tour in between, but to have them both at 5 at the end would also be pretty epic.
The way it looked this time though, with Vingegaard pushing his best ever numbers, I think it might just be the case from now on that he can't drop Pogacar, or he needs to get much more aggressive about it.

No worries, he will be way more even with Pogacar next year.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

You have a young man's definition of modern...

But there is a point to it. The jump we've seen, if sustained, might usher in a new era, and it kind of already has as the way the races are being raced is significantly different to what is also seen as the modern era mostly. According to the people in the sport, and discounting clinic reasons for the arguments and forums rules sake, the sport has just started to be modern as in really scientific a few years ago.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

No worries, he will be way more even with Pogacar next year.

Maybe yes maybe not. He has some catching up to do and is older than him. Also he does not need to even up, he needs to drop him. Pogacar can always outpunch him and on flatter TTs he has the upper hand. Vingegaard basically has to ride him of his wheel, and if that happens ever again, only time will tell. But if Vingegaard still has room to improve left, so probably has Pogacar, but he's taken a leap above Vingegaards max level, so if he holds Vingegaard needs to become significantly stronger just to stay close to him. But staying close isn't enough as Pogacar has many ways to take time, Vingegaard as many at all.

 

[snipeheem]

I think this is exactly what it is and when Vinge beat him in 2022/2023, they thought they had his number. Like "we got him". They were just gonna do it again this year, despite the crash which frankly cant have mattered much in their decision to send Vinge and after seeing his performance on PdB... they definitely thought "we got him". They saw Giro and like many others on here said... its "only" the Giro. He is racing against Martinez and old man Thomas. Come to Tour, we will see who is the best. Especially, 3rd week.

From training and prep they knew he could probably win again, according to what they saw and what they thought they knew. Stage 15, Stage 19 and the last ITT was where he was gonna win the race. You dont have to be super-smart to realize that.

However, in hindsight, you could see small cracks in this imagery that they had of themselves on stage 4 already. Vinge is visibly frustrated crossing the line after blowing up on the descent and not being able to come back. The talk is... "well, we will see 3rd week". He was always gonna lose seconds in the first week. Pog is more fresh. Pog will fade in the 3rd week etc.

First ITT only loses 25 seconds to Pog. No problem. Better than they thought.

Fast forward to stage 11.... Vinge is able to reel back Pog and beat him at the line. Things looking like they are turning. Starting to look exactly like the script from the past two years. Vinge very emotional and celebratory at the finish. They are all in to destroy Pog on PdB.

In hindsight, what happened on that stage is pretty curious. Was Pog sandbagging? Did he just had a bad day and bonked? Did he just want to draw out his opponent on some Art of War type stuff, to make it so much psychologically worse for Vinge and Visma come PdB? We will probably never know for sure and no reason to speculate more on that, but it is interesting since this is what essentially breaks Vinge and Vismas spirits.

Vinge and Visma are a mess in the days after. Look sluggish and bit out of it. Like just trying to cope with the defeat at PdB, come to terms with what they thought knew... is no longer. Vinge is not the best and strongest climber anymore. They look a bit stunned and their statements/behavior is very telling the following days. All of this has to do more with psychology and the mental aspects of it. Not the crash, not that Vinge is not in very good form or shape or that he doesnt have the legs.... because is actually better than he has ever been. You have to compare him to himself. That they will now work and try improve more is a given. The level has been raised again, but that has literally nothing to do with his crash.

How he recovered from the crash, how bad his injuries really were... that just something we will never know. And how he is able to still be in the best form of his life... thats difficult to discuss here.

What you can conclude is the roles have been reversed, which Vinge and Visma probably wasnt thinking was even possible. Thats why they are now saying the things they are saying. Tom D. Zeeman etc. They are very hurt, because of their own arrogance and pride. First they were shocked/stunned. Now as the days goes by they just seem to be getting more angry about it, but thats the stages you usually have to go through.

At least Vinge is being pretty honest and saying he would have done the same thing, regarding to the stage yesterday. He will come back even better next year and the battle will ensue again. Im sure of it.

Patrick Lefevere calls Visma "sore losers" after comments about Tadej Pogacar's greediness

 

[Offline]

Patrick Lefevere calls Visma "sore losers" after comments about Tadej Pogacar's greediness

Totally agree. Visma is horrible winners and losers.

 

[scribers]

Did Visma actually complain though? I thought it was mostly media pundits and wanna be commentators such as ourselves

 

[Miha81]

"I get paid to win" - Tadej Pogacar silences criticism for perceived greediness at 2024 Tour de France

Our colleagues from Ciclismoaldia were fortunate to

cyclinguptodate.com

 

[scribers]

I think this is exactly what it is and when Vinge beat him in 2022/2023, they thought they had his number. Like "we got him". They were just gonna do it again this year, despite the crash which frankly cant have mattered much in their decision to send Vinge and after seeing his performance on PdB... they definitely thought "we got him". They saw Giro and like many others on here said... its "only" the Giro. He is racing against Martinez and old man Thomas. Come to Tour, we will see who is the best. Especially, 3rd week.

From training and prep they knew he could probably win again, according to what they saw and what they thought they knew. Stage 15, Stage 19 and the last ITT was where he was gonna win the race. You dont have to be super-smart to realize that.

However, in hindsight, you could see small cracks in this imagery that they had of themselves on stage 4 already. Vinge is visibly frustrated crossing the line after blowing up on the descent and not being able to come back. The talk is... "well, we will see 3rd week". He was always gonna lose seconds in the first week. Pog is more fresh. Pog will fade in the 3rd week etc.

First ITT only loses 25 seconds to Pog. No problem. Better than they thought.

Fast forward to stage 11.... Vinge is able to reel back Pog and beat him at the line. Things looking like they are turning. Starting to look exactly like the script from the past two years. Vinge very emotional and celebratory at the finish. They are all in to destroy Pog on PdB.

In hindsight, what happened on that stage is pretty curious. Was Pog sandbagging? Did he just had a bad day and bonked? Did he just want to draw out his opponent on some Art of War type stuff, to make it so much psychologically worse for Vinge and Visma come PdB? We will probably never know for sure and no reason to speculate more on that, but it is interesting since this is what essentially breaks Vinge and Vismas spirits.

Vinge and Visma are a mess in the days after. Look sluggish and bit out of it. Like just trying to cope with the defeat at PdB, come to terms with what they thought knew... is no longer. Vinge is not the best and strongest climber anymore. They look a bit stunned and their statements/behavior is very telling the following days. All of this has to do more with psychology and the mental aspects of it. Not the crash, not that Vinge is not in very good form or shape or that he doesnt have the legs.... because is actually better than he has ever been. You have to compare him to himself. That they will now work and try improve more is a given. The level has been raised again, but that has literally nothing to do with his crash.

How he recovered from the crash, how bad his injuries really were... that just something we will never know. And how he is able to still be in the best form of his life... thats difficult to discuss here.

What you can conclude is the roles have been reversed, which Vinge and Visma probably wasnt thinking was even possible. Thats why they are now saying the things they are saying. Tom D. Zeeman etc. They are very hurt, because of their own arrogance and pride. First they were shocked/stunned. Now as the days goes by they just seem to be getting more angry about it, but thats the stages you usually have to go through.

At least Vinge is being pretty honest and saying he would have done the same thing, regarding to the stage yesterday. He will come back even better next year and the battle will ensue again. Im sure of it.

This is a very good rundown of what happened and perceptions from camps. I would add to it the psychological warfare before the tour even began. The visma narrative that Vingo is simply fortunate to begin the race (he was). Truth is they not only thought me might win in spite of all evidence of pog’s improvement from last year, but they knew Vingo would win, even with a much weaker visma team. Broe, who’s on the visma payroll, came out on like stage three and announced Vingo would win. Didn’t say he thought Vingo could win. Said he would win. The element of surprise was apparent. Gerajnt thomas found the hidden form and echoed Vingo would win. He just friggen raced against pogi in the giro! And pogi was put on the ropes after minimal time losses in the first half of the tour and Vingo’s constant presence on pogis wheel before and after Vingo’s win on stage 11.

 

[meat puppet]

Unless there are significant changes to how Pog and Vinge can navigate the current obstacle course called the rules, I think Pog is in a very good place for the years to come.

Even assuming the two become matched in climbing terms (minus the sprint advantage to Pog), and rather matched in terms of TT capacity, the question is how Vinge can win. This assumption means JV loses some time before mountains proper and likely at least bonus seconds in mountain stages. The only way is to drop Pog. Very easy, eh.

Despite what mou claimed, JV basically has only the relentless high kJ plus satellite strategy riders available for him. But for that he needs an actual team with rouleurs that can scorch the flats and also climb. Plus climbers. Basically that insane 2022 template. Edit: ambushing cross wind patches could also work, depending on how many rouleurs Pog has.

So the expectation is that Pog remains the favorite for quite some time.

 

[RedheadDane]

Hold on... so he tried not to win yesterday?

Guess we've found the thing he can't do...

 

[BubbaChuck]

Vuelta is no bueno,look at Kuss.Simply not worth it.he can do it,but he will pay the price.its much better to continue gc mode,recover and focus on long climbs and itt.he can do this till 29 and than make adecision to try all 3,if he becomes strong/durable enough.he still has at least 3 years to improve his durability and try triple.this year is living proof,how important is to specialize and than you can achieve great heights in Gts.If im pog, my goal would be 6 tours,than he can refocus on classics and win them all.next goat.

 

[Salvarani]

He will never attempt the triple and shouldnt.

 

[Peyroteo94]

He should attempt the triple. I would definitely consider him the best GT rider of all times. No one has ever made it.

 

[James M]

He should attempt the triple. I would definitely consider him the best GT rider of all times. No one has ever made it.

dude if you still dont its no point honestly

 

[scribers]

The GT treble is not historical because the schedule of the three never aligned well and the vuelta was not as prominent an event as it is now. That said, the treble has not been done because the double was insanely difficult to do, not since 1998 has the double been achieved. The triple crown has not been achieved since the 80’s and rarely at all historically. This pogi can do without a big risk of burnout

 

[scribers]

If pogi did the GT treble this season would be legendary and incomparable historically, and quite likely unassailable going forward in our lifetime

 

[OJRvE]

If Pog wants the triple I think it’s better to try it when he prepared for it in advance. This year I don’t think riding the Giro affected his Tour negatively so he could win the double in the future aswell. But to do the triple maybe he needs a even lighter schedule in the spring perhaps skipping Strade, MSR and LBL

 

[scribers]

It doesn’t look like he’s gone that deep in the double in spite of the results of stage wins and spread in winning times. If he were to skip the Olympics and Canadian classics I think he could do it. Just ride the vuelta, cover attacks, and see where it takes you