Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Red Rick]

I was mainly talking about the overall win. For lower places they can definitely make a difference, but the Tour is very hard and the ITT is very hard and I think gaps will be very big in the end.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I was mainly talking about the overall win. For lower places they can definitely make a difference, but the Tour is very hard and the ITT is very hard and I think gaps will be very big in the end.

Yes. I don't think he'll end up winning it, so that wasn't what i was getting it with my post. But being able to take seconds out of the competition with a late attack and boniseconds, it also gives you a tactical advantage. Not having to ride and letting the competition do the work in certain scenarios, they need to drop him, not the other way around, etc.

 

[Red Rick]

Just looked at his schedule for the year and damn that is one full schedule.

 

[Lequack]

Just looked at his schedule for the year and damn that is one full schedule.

Yeah really full, maybe they'll decide he can skip something.

 

[Red Rick]

I'd say ditch PN and Milano Sanremo.

 

[roundabout]

38 race days before the Tour, he had 62 last year in total

I agree, Paris-Nice and Sanremo are the most logical to skip

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Imho Amstel could be cut as well. I can't really see him competing for victory there, and given the fact that it's only a week after Itzulia, i don't think he really needs the race to prepare for Flèche and Liège (which should suit him a lot more than Amstel).

 

[yaco]

Bonus seconds will not be important in the TDF going by previous results - Especially if Ineos is leading the peleton who are the breakaway's best friend

 

[Bonimenier]

Bonus seconds will not be important in the TDF going by previous results - Especially if Ineos is leading the peleton who are the breakaway's best friend

Last year the gap from 2 to 3 was 20s, gap from 3 to 4 was 25s. These are definitely gaps that can be influenced by boni's.

 

[yaco]

Last year the gap from 2 to 3 was 20s, gap from 3 to 4 was 25s. These are definitely gaps that can be influenced by boni's.

You aren't getting it - When Ineos get the lead in the TDF which is usually early in the race, they sit up and allow breakaways to take the stage.

 

[Bonimenier]

You aren't getting it - When Ineos get the lead in the TDF which is usually early in the race, they sit up and allow breakaways to take the stage.

And you don't think UAE will ride for Pogacar when they think he'll have a good shot at a stage victory? Especially when boniseconds turn out to be important. Ineos isn't the only team in the peloton.

 

[Lequack]

UAE also got two new climbers or climber types as well for help in the mountains. David de la Cruz from Ineos and Joe Dombrowski from EF.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

UAE also got two new climbers or climber types as well for help in the mountains. David de la Cruz from Ineos and Joe Dombrowski from EF.

You mean in general? Apparently none of them will ride this year's TDF. But in general, they also brought in Ardilla and Covi and McNulty so they should be able to built a strong squad around him in the future.

 

[yaco]

And you don't think UAE will ride for Pogacar when they think he'll have a good shot at a stage victory? Especially when boniseconds turn out to be important. Ineos isn't the only team in the peloton.

Teams have not done it in the last 8 years, except for rare circumstances - GC riders don't need to win the stage to take time on GC rivals.

 

[yaco]

UAE also got two new climbers or climber types as well for help in the mountains. David de la Cruz from Ineos and Joe Dombrowski from EF.

De la Cruz could never make the Ineos TDF team and neither could Dombrowski - In fact, Dombrowski has never ridden the TDF - It's not about having a team full of climbers to beat Ineos - It's about making the stages tougher before the climbs to weaken the Ineos train, so ideally, i'd give up one or two mountain domestic helpers for flat land grunt.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

GC riders don't need to win the stage to take time on GC rivals.

What a silly statement. If you are placed withing spitting distance of the rider in front of you in GC, and there is a stage which is tailormade for you, where you can take 5 or 10 seconds on your rival as well as an extra 10 boni seconds, you would be a fool not to have your team control the race.

 

[del1962]

De la Cruz could never make the Ineos TDF team and neither could Dombrowski - In fact, Dombrowski has never ridden the TDF - It's not about having a team full of climbers to beat Ineos - It's about making the stages tougher before the climbs to weaken the Ineos train, so ideally, i'd give up one or two mountain domestic helpers for flat land grunt.

Surely having a couple of climbers is to protect your leader if has problems, including bike swithces etc, moving him back to the group etc

 

[SHAD0W93]

Surely having a couple of climbers is to protect your leader if has problems, including bike swithces etc, moving him back to the group etc

This.
I can think of Uran only having Poels or Dumoulin in the Vuelta and Giro, Krushweak in Giro; etc.

 

[Koronin]

Movistar has tried that team full of climbers to beat Ineos/Sky a few times. Closest they got with that was 2015 when they placed riders on the podium in 2nd and 3rd.

 

[yaco]

What a silly statement. If you are placed withing spitting distance of the rider in front of you in GC, and there is a stage which is tailormade for you, where you can take 5 or 10 seconds on your rival as well as an extra 10 boni seconds, you would be a fool not to have your team control the race.

And the point is when Ineos control the peleton at the TDF, once they have the yellow jersey, they let the break take the stage - It's up to other teams to defy convention, control the peleton to get bonus seconds - You can still make time on a GC rival without bonus seconds - Little I can do, if you dont understand the premise.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

And the point is when Ineos control the peleton at the TDF, once they have the yellow jersey, they let the break take the stage - It's up to other teams to defy convention, control the peleton to get bonus seconds - You can still make time on a GC rival without bonus seconds - Little I can do, if you dont understand the premise.

You are completely correct that, like in this case, one can not help it when another is simply too dense to understand the premise. On this we can agree. Unfortunately, in this case, i have some bad news for you...

We were discussing Pogacar's kick or punch to win sprints on MTF, not unlike how Valverde or Purito used to do it. In many cases sprint away far enough to take not only the win, a few seconds on rivals in the same group, but also take boni seconds. Everybody who has been following cycling for longer than a week, indeed knows, that in order to take boni seconds, you need to finish (among the) first in that stage. That if a break goes to the finish, that there are no longer boni seconds to receive by the group of favorites. I know, we all know, my 7 year old knows. Thank you for pointing out the obvious. The fact that Ineos doesn't ride when there is a break that is no threat, is completely besides the point and irrelevant. They can all take a piss break of 10 minutes or start playing cards on the side of the road. Like Bonimenier already pointed out 2 days ago and half a page up, Ineos isn't the only team in the peloton, other teams (like UAE) can ride and control the race.

As such, when UAE knows the finish is perfect for Pogacar, and he can take 10 to 20 seconds (time dif + boni) on such a finish on a rider who is either breathing down his neck, or who is within spitting distance in GC, why wouldn't his team control the race and make sure he gets those boni seconds? If there are 2 or 3 such finishes, he could possibly win 30 seconds MORE thanks to bonis.

A GC rider doesn't need boni seconds to make a difference, you say. In theory this is correct. Assuming you are the better climber or ITT'er. But if you are only equal or slightly worse, those boni seconds could very well be the only weapon you have.

Hoping you now understand the premise,
sincerly

 

[Red Rick]

Most of the stages with where boni's matter the most are before where Ineos likely takes yellow anyway. Sure Jumbo might try to do the same, but if they bet on Roglic they might as well go for the punchy stages too.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Congratulations Pogačar, fantastic cycling season opening. Can't wait for Paris–Nice, Tour before the Tour.

 

[yaco]

Most of the stages with where boni's matter the most are before where Ineos likely takes yellow anyway. Sure Jumbo might try to do the same, but if they bet on Roglic they might as well go for the punchy stages too.

Traditionally Ineos target the first mountain stage to put the hammer down to make time and possibly grab the yellow jersey - And if there is an early ITT this even strengthens their position - It's a simple equation - You are a team that wants bonus seconds, then you ride hard to ensure the breakaway doesn't take the bonus seconds, and that means you don't allow Ineos ' To Play the Piano' for most of the stage before you get to the final.

 

[yaco]

You are completely correct that, like in this case, one can not help it when another is simply too dense to understand the premise. On this we can agree. Unfortunately, in this case, i have some bad news for you...

We were discussing Pogacar's kick or punch to win sprints on MTF, not unlike how Valverde or Purito used to do it. In many cases sprint away far enough to take not only the win, a few seconds on rivals in the same group, but also take boni seconds. Everybody who has been following cycling for longer than a week, indeed knows, that in order to take boni seconds, you need to finish (among the) first in that stage. That if a break goes to the finish, that there are no longer boni seconds to receive by the group of favorites. I know, we all know, my 7 year old knows. Thank you for pointing out the obvious. The fact that Ineos doesn't ride when there is a break that is no threat, is completely besides the point and irrelevant. They can all take a piss break of 10 minutes or start playing cards on the side of the road. Like Bonimenier already pointed out 2 days ago and half a page up, Ineos isn't the only team in the peloton, other teams (like UAE) can ride and control the race.

As such, when UAE knows the finish is perfect for Pogacar, and he can take 10 to 20 seconds (time dif + boni) on such a finish on a rider who is either breathing down his neck, or who is within spitting distance in GC, why wouldn't his team control the race and make sure he gets those boni seconds? If there are 2 or 3 such finishes, he could possibly win 30 seconds MORE thanks to bonis.

A GC rider doesn't need boni seconds to make a difference, you say. In theory this is correct. Assuming you are the better climber or ITT'er. But if you are only equal or slightly worse, those boni seconds could very well be the only weapon you have.

Hoping you now understand the premise,
sincerly

Let's put this theory into practice, because it's rarely happened in the Ineos period of domination at the TDF - I have been calling on teams for two or three years to back in their GC leaders by riding select stages hard to win stages and bonuses - I will add to achieve this, you need to select balanced teams which means not having too many climber support riders - Have strong rouleurs along with two top notch climbing domestiques is what you need.